Cointelpro created the LA gangs

Eddie Dane said:
I once read that young US males can identify a great number of guns, just from the silhouette. However, Gangbangers live their lives within the radius of the territory they control and probably aren't readers.

I bet they can tell an AK from a MAC-10, though.
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I meant more that he was speaking metaphorically than refering to actual UZIs, which he may not know come from Israel. That said, I couldn't help making the "It's the Jews" joke.
 
Eddie Dane said:
By that time [mid eighties] even Hoover was out of power and probably didn't fit his favorite dress anymore.
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Poor ole' Edgar died in '72.

At least, that's what they would have you believe.

Great thread. I wish I had something useful to contribute, but I don't.
 
Eddie Dane said:
As an aside:

I read Sagan's and Dryan'sShadows Of Forgotten Ancestors. It deals with the evolutionary roots of human behaviour. He writes extensively about primates and Chimpanzees in particular.

I came away with the idea that gangs are the most natural and basic form of humans social organisation. Sagan goes as far as saying that once humans are in a gang or in jail, they basically act like chimpanzees.

  • Strong hierarchy within the group, established trough violence.
  • Alpha males lay sexual claim to females within the group.
  • Females within the group grant sexual favours to alpha males for protection and status.
  • Constant territorial war with nearby groups.
  • Constant testing of nearby groups through skirmishes.

There's even a chapter called Gangland, written from the perspective of a "gang member". Only at the end do you realise she is actually a chimp.
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Sounds like an intersting read (although the last two sentences are spoilers ;)). I always felt myself that gangs really exposed our primitive (violent, territorial) nature. Human beings are tribal/social by nature and gangs are just an unfortunate consequence of our nature.
 
Eddie Dane said:
As an aside:

I read Sagan's and Dryan'sShadows Of Forgotten Ancestors. It deals with the evolutionary roots of human behaviour. He writes extensively about primates and Chimpanzees in particular.

I came away with the idea that gangs are the most natural and basic form of humans social organisation. Sagan goes as far as saying that once humans are in a gang or in jail, they basically act like chimpanzees.

  • Strong hierarchy within the group, established trough violence.
  • Alpha males lay sexual claim to females within the group.
  • Females within the group grant sexual favours to alpha males for protection and status.
  • Constant territorial war with nearby groups.
  • Constant testing of nearby groups through skirmishes.

There's even a chapter called Gangland, written from the perspective of a "gang member". Only at the end do you realise she is actually a chimp.
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I have no real expertise in this area, though I know a little bit about gangs.
But it sure does sound like the book is spot on with the comparison..
No matter what, you really can't deny this is how gangs act. (White, black, yellow or red gangs - it doesn't matter)
And again, I'm no expert, but chimps act pretty much exactly like that too as far as I know.

Very interesting (off)topic! I should buy this book
 
Eddie Dane said:
Or so it is claimed in the documentary Why We Bang about the Crips and the Bloods.


It mostly goes into gang culture, but also gives a short historical introduction in which the following is claimed:
  • The FBI infiltrated the Black Panthers and effectively destroyed the party from within.
  • Many former members set up new organizations. But these were without the political goals and discipline (gangs).
  • The FBI introduced crack into the black neighborhoods.
  • The FBI introduced automatic weapons into black neighborhoods (this is implied, not stated).
Now, I think that most of this is shifting the blame.
I actually saw a guy in one interview claim: they are bringing guns in so that we kill each other. 'It must come from outside, there are no Uzi factories in South Central'.
But look at all the stupid and immoral stuff that went on under Cointelpro. And the FBI's infiltration of Marcus Garvey's organization decades earlier.
I suspect there is a grain of truth in the claims.

My question: what is this grain of truth?
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The grain of truth is the FBI waged war on the Black Panthers by assassinating their leaders.
 
Myron Proudfoot said:
Yeah, if there was one thing Hoover's FBI wanted, it was a bunch of angry black men with guns!!!
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I always suspected there was a Black Hand in the FBI/CIA national security establishment.

They got MLK, Malcolm X, George Lincoln Rockwell and George Wallace (attempted).
 
MaGZ said:
The grain of truth is the FBI waged war on the Black Panthers by assassinating their leaders.
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Really? Which leaders were these?

Bobby Seale is still alive.
Huey Newton was killed in 1989 by a drug dealer.
Melvin Newton is still alive.
Stokely Carmichael died in 1998 of cancer.
Eldridge Cleaver died in hospital of 1998 (cause not revealed).

If they were assassinating BPP leaders, they did a lousy job of it.
 
Shifting the blame is one important aspect of this whole myth, I think another important thing is the reinforcement of the group spirit. It allows the gangs to lay claim to being among the successors of the Black Panthers as origin story, it enforces the "us against them" feeling both inside the gangs and inside the whole gang subculture (being done tremendous wrongs, fighting against The Man) and offers a simple black and white worldview on who is good and who is evil. (Pun not intended)
What makes this really interesting is the fact that if this interpretation were to be right, the gangs are following the plan set by the CIA to the letter despite the negative results for themselves.
 
I think gangs start in urban poor areas for simple and clear reasons:

1. Seeking family and fellowship that is not offered in the home.
2. Seeking mutual prosperity in the face of poverty conditions.
3. Granting a feeling of power that is otherwise unavailable.

Unfortunately gangs generally do so by methods that are harmful, criminal, and violent. But they seem a natural result of the conditions.
 
The problem is, that explanation - while following Occam's Razor - doesn't slake the thirst of those who just KNOW that COINTELPRO must have done this, since they did other things, man.
 
Eddie Dane said:
I came away with the idea that gangs are the most natural and basic form of humans social organisation. Sagan goes as far as saying that once humans are in a gang or in jail, they basically act like chimpanzees.

  • Strong hierarchy within the group, established trough violence.
  • Alpha males lay sexual claim to females within the group.
  • Females within the group grant sexual favours to alpha males for protection and status.
  • Constant territorial war with nearby groups.
  • Constant testing of nearby groups through skirmishes.

There's even a chapter called Gangland, written from the perspective of a "gang member". Only at the end do you realise she is actually a chimp.
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Sounds more like the history of the Mormons.

Or colonial Europe.
 
I don't think anyone is arguing that the FBI wouldn't do wrong, but I don't feel it's established that they did in the case of LA gangs. It did not require outside agitation.

Now, though, while we're studying motives of law enforcement, while I'm not thinking of them as virtuous, I tend to think they believed they were serving the cause of law and order by stopping potential revolutionaries, and just didn't mind committing crimes or murder to do so. On the other hand I'm expected to believe that the police somehow WANTED gang violence to occur. To believe that you'd have to see them as cartoonishly seeking it just because it was evil, and not because it did anything beneficial for them.
 
drkitten said:
I see. So now Fred Hampton is "Black Panther Leaders"?

Has he always been plural, or only since their deaths?
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You should at least watch the link / read the transcript before commenting. I count two:

On December 4th, 1969, Chicago police raided Fred Hampton’s apartment and shot and killed him in his bed. He was just twenty-one years old. Black Panther leader Mark Clark was also killed in the raid.
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drkitten said:
Still waiting for any evidence of a policy of "assassination" instead of a single botched raid.
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Sure, me too.. But your post seemed like you didn't even watch/read the link and just made a quick "this is woo" response.
(It is probably woo, I don't know anything about BPP, but still..)
 
drkitten said:
Still waiting for any evidence of a policy of "assassination" instead of a single botched raid.
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I think "botched" is probably something of a distortion. This case might be one of the true ugly ones. I've read up a little and could not find much of a defense for the police/FBI in that case.
 
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