• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Cognitive Theory, ongoing progress

Looks like it's been about four months. I would say that the research during that time could have been covered in three technical papers.

  • Falsification of the Turing Test: An analysis of the TT indicates that it is not a useful yardstick for determining human-equivalence in a Church-Turing based AI.
  • Disproving brain/Turing Machine equivalence.
  • The fundamental laws of information gain in non-cognitive, non-replicating and replicating systems.
 
Looks like it's been about four months. I would say that the research during that time could have been covered in three technical papers.

  • Falsification of the Turing Test: An analysis of the TT indicates that it is not a useful yardstick for determining human-equivalence in a Church-Turing based AI.
  • Disproving brain/Turing Machine equivalence.
  • The fundamental laws of information gain in non-cognitive, non-replicating and replicating systems.
Sure, all three of those things in a mere four months, had you only deigned to publish any of it.

Incidentally, just this morning I came across a wonderful proof that P=NP, and also a cure for cancer.
 
Sure, all three of those things in a mere four months, had you only deigned to publish any of it.

Incidentally, just this morning I came across a wonderful proof that P=NP, and also a cure for cancer.


Oh dear. Is this margin too small to contain them?
 
Sure, all three of those things in a mere four months
You and I see things very differently. I normally view the progress as going at a snail's pace. I've been working on a disproof of the computational theory of mind since 2014 and information gain for a couple of years. I finally had some insights that provided a formal disproof and that led to some conclusions about the Turing Test.

had you only deigned to publish any of it.
My reasons haven't changed, and no one here has given much of a counter argument.

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" --- Christopher Hitchens
Yes, Hitchens' razor. Unfortunately, either agreement or disagreement without comprehension is of no value. Since no one here has any understanding of my research there is also no way to determine if I'm an attention-seeking crackpot or a scientist making genuine progress. Either conclusion has the same value.
 
Looks like it's been about four months. I would say that the research during that time could have been covered in three technical papers.

  • Falsification of the Turing Test: An analysis of the TT indicates that it is not a useful yardstick for determining human-equivalence in a Church-Turing based AI.
  • Disproving brain/Turing Machine equivalence.
  • The fundamental laws of information gain in non-cognitive, non-replicating and replicating systems.

Could you explain why you wrote this post?
 
Could you explain why you wrote this post?
Well, let's see. The title of the thread is "Cognitive Theory, ongoing progress", and the post was about ongoing progress with cognitive theory. I can see why you were confused. Is there anything else you need explained?
 
Last edited:
Well, let's see. The title of the thread is "Cognitive Theory, ongoing progress", and the post was about ongoing progress with cognitive theory. I can see why you were confused. Is there anything else you need explained?

But you didn't actually post the progress of your cognitive theory, you just posted a summation of some claims of progress, which is very different.
 
But you didn't actually post the progress of your cognitive theory, you just posted a summation of some claims of progress, which is very different.

Let me see if I get this straight. In the other sections people have claims of photographing ghosts, bigfoot, aliens, electric comets, the flow of dark, free energy, and all sorts of psychic phenomenon which people here apparently don't mind discussing. There have been write-ups in popular magazines of claimed technologies that are patently false such as cold fusion, nanite manufacturing, two separate devices that can draw water out of desert air, and Musk's claims about a hyper speed vacuum train.

And, yet for some reason, which I can't fathom, I draw a vastly higher standard. This dishonesty is pretty obvious but no one here seems to mind it. I suppose it could be due to some aspect of human relations that I'm not aware of. Perhaps I've violated some playground rule that has given people here permission to pile on. I don't know.

But, if honesty means anything to you then try answering these questions:

  1. What law of physics have I claimed could be violated?
  2. What proven theory have I disagreed with?
  3. Where is the attention seeking such as a website, Youtube videos, Facebook page, or crowd funding?
  4. When have I sought validation, praise, or agreement here?
  5. Do I claim to have working hardware or systems?
  6. Do I claim to have a completed theory?
  7. Do I state with certainty that I can solve consciousness or that I can do it in a short period of time?
  8. Where do I resort to supernatural or mystical claims?

1. To the best of my knowledge, none.
2. Again, none that I'm aware of. I do disagree with the computational theory of mind, but this theory hasn't been proven in 70 years.
3. I don't have any of these. Instead I choose to post in an obscure, low traffic forum.
4. My research doesn't depend on agreement. Like all science, if it is correct, it works whether anyone believes it or not; and if it is wrong then it fails regardless of belief, praise, or wishful thinking.
5. Until you have a working theory I don't see how research could begin on systems or hardware.
6. After 4 1/2 years I still cannot explain how consciousness works.
7. I think that if consciousness can be solved then I have a good chance of doing it. I don't know how long that might take.
8. Simply put, I don't. I think the mind is entirely a product of the brain and I think it has a mechanistic explanation.

So, what progress have I made that seems so impossible?

I created a model of the awareness system in the brain back in 2015. I created Knowledge Theory in 2016. Since then I have made some progress in defining free will. I have some speculation about cognitive development in primates and why sapiens seemed to be the only species to acquire a general version. I finally came up with a disproof of the computational theory of mind. I guess it's strange to me that if someone posted a link to Kastrup's "proof" of Idealism people here would take it at face value and discuss it as though it was a real theory with some connection to reality even though the idea is ludicrous.
 
The issue isn't that your claims are outrageous (they may be, they may not be). The issue is that you have done nothing beyond making the claims. What is the content of knowledge theory, what is your model o the awareness system in the brain, how have you defined free will? Etc. You decline to go into details, so there's nothing to discuss.

Maybe you have done all of these things, I just don't see the point in your telling that you've done them without discussing how. If someone posted a link to Kastrup's "proof" of Idealism people here might discuss it because they'd actually have the content of the supposed proof to discuss.

You haven't actually posted any content for us to discuss, only claims that said content exists.
 
Looks like it's been about four months. I would say that the research during that time could have been covered in three technical papers. ....
That is 3 unsupported claims, not papers. Given the previous posts that show some ignorance about Turing machines, it is unlikely that thee claims are about real Turing machines.

The Turing test makes your first claim obviously wrong.
The Turing test, developed by Alan Turing in 1950, is a test of a machine's ability to exhibit intelligent behavior equivalent to, or indistinguishable from, that of a human. Turing proposed that a human evaluator would judge natural language conversations between a human and a machine designed to generate human-like responses. The evaluator would be aware that one of the two partners in conversation is a machine, and all participants would be separated from one another. The conversation would be limited to a text-only channel such as a computer keyboard and screen so the result would not depend on the machine's ability to render words as speech.[2] If the evaluator cannot reliably tell the machine from the human, the machine is said to have passed the test. The test does not check the ability to give correct answers to questions, only how closely answers resemble those a human would give.
That machine can be any computer running a program, not specifically a Turning machine.
 
Last edited:
And, yet for some reason, which I can't fathom, I draw a vastly higher standard. This dishonesty is pretty obvious but no one here seems to mind it. I suppose it could be due to some aspect of human relations that I'm not aware of. Perhaps I've violated some playground rule that has given people here permission to pile on. I don't know.

How can you not see why your claims are met with derision?

So far this entire thread has been you making unsupported claims followed by nonsensical excuses for why you can't back them up. My understanding is that you can't explain anything until you are completely finished, in any case we wouldn't understand it, you won't post explanations to this site anyway, and you need to wait for political change to occur before what you know can be revealed.

WTF!
 
The issue isn't that your claims are outrageous (they may be, they may not be).
They be. Those are some pretty fundamental concepts barehl is claiming to have established and/or overturned, without any evidence of it happening. The arrogance and excuse-making only confirm the woo.

An actual paranoid genius, the kind barehl is trying to emulate, wouldn't be here posting his "progress" for the purposes of attention, he'd be quietly crouched over his surplus army field ration while going over the proof again just to be sure.

Let me see if I get this straight. In the other sections people have claims of photographing ghosts, bigfoot, aliens, electric comets, the flow of dark, free energy, and all sorts of psychic phenomenon which people here apparently don't mind discussing. There have been write-ups in popular magazines of claimed technologies that are patently false such as cold fusion, nanite manufacturing, two separate devices that can draw water out of desert air, and Musk's claims about a hyper speed vacuum train.

And, yet for some reason, which I can't fathom, I draw a vastly higher standard.
Are you really sure these are the kind of peers you want to be compared to? Because so far you're doing a great job of making sure no one takes you any more seriously than they do bigfoot or darksuckers.
 
I started a thread here some time ago in an attempt to find perspective. I never did. Three years later, I finally found some in a November 19, 2018 post in Sabine Hossenfelder's Backreaction blog. The present phase of stagnation in the foundations of physics is not normal.

Nothing is moving in the foundations of physics. One experiment after the other is returning null results: No new particles, no new dimensions, no new symmetries. Sure, there are some anomalies in the data here and there, and maybe one of them will turn out to be real news. But experimentalists are just poking in the dark. They have no clue where new physics may be to find. And their colleagues in theory development are of no help.

The self-reflection in the community is zero, zilch, nada, nichts, null. They just keep doing what they’ve been doing for 40 years, blathering about naturalness and multiverses and shifting their “predictions,” once again, to the next larger particle collider.​
That looks so god awful familiar. Theories (like Global Workspace, IIT, etc.) based on wishful thinking that still can't be reconciled with evidence. Plugging away with the same limitations and methodologies that we used 60 years ago. The continuing desperate hope that the next version of Watson or Alpha Zero will at last shed some light on AGI.

The problem is also not that we lack data. We have data in abundance. But all the data are well explained by the existing theories – the standard model of particle physics and the cosmological concordance model. Still, we know that’s not it. The current theories are incomplete.​
Yes. There is excellent work being done everyday in computer science, behavioral science, cognitive science and neurology. Everything we do within computer science has already been well explained with computational theory. But we know for a fact that it is incomplete.

I am merely summing up predictions that have been made for physics beyond the standard model which the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) was supposed to find: All the extra dimensions in their multiple shapes and configurations, all the pretty symmetry groups, all the new particles with the fancy names.

They were all wrong. Even if the LHC finds something new in the data that is yet to come, we already know that the theorists’ guesses did not work out. Not. A. Single. One. How much more evidence do they need that their methods are not working?​
We could be talking about perceptrons, neural networks, deep learning. Money spent on "self-driving" cars that still don't work. Every single prediction that human reasoning could be nailed down with computational theory has failed miserably over and over and over. Every attempt to create brain models or reasoning models using computational theory has failed.

The perceptron goes back to 1957 and The General Problem Solver to 1959. The Lighthill Report in 1973 stated, "In no part of the field have the discoveries made so far produced the major impact that was then promised".

XCON dates to 1980. The Japanese 5th Generation Computer Project dates to 1981 and DARPA's Strategic Computing Initiative to 1983. Cyc dates to 1984 and Deep Learning to 1986. A decade later it was realized that XCON was too brittle and Cyc still couldn't reason. Even by 2001 the goals had not been met.

By 2007, DARPA was at it again with its Grand Challenge Program and a decade after that, no significant progress.

Deep systems, convolutional systems, feed forward, back propagation, and recurrent neural networks all seemed to come together in 2012. This was it. Now we are at Alpha Zero and still no path forward.

If you look at the sociology of science, bad incentives create substantial inefficiencies. If you look at the psychology of science, no one likes change.

Developing new methodologies is harder than inventing new particles in the dozens, which is why they don’t like to hear my conclusions. Any change will reduce the paper output, and they don’t want this. It’s not institutional pressure that creates this resistance, it’s that scientists themselves don’t want to move their butts.​
It's much easier to work on a new algorithm than to create a new field of science. It's far easier to come up with a new spin on existing neural networks than delve into new theory.

I am afraid there is nothing that can stop them. They review each other’s papers. They review each other’s grant proposals. And they constantly tell each other that what they are doing is good science. Why should they stop? For them, all is going well. They hold conferences, they publish papers, they discuss their great new ideas. From the inside, it looks like business as usual, just that nothing comes out of it.​
I agree with this too. If it were left up to Deep Mind, IBM, Microsoft, Tesla, Fujitsu, military, graduate and post-doc research we would never move forward. I used to think that this board actually gave a damn about science, that people here cared about evidence and critical thinking. Instead, the mantra of skepticism often seems to be just another tool in gamesmanship, a way to push your own biases and hopes without having to explain them.

How many times have I seen people here parrot, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? I suppose they feel good when they do this, but they don't seem to realize that moon hoaxers, flat earthers, and anti-vaxers use the same arguments.

If that had been the attitude then Goddard would have never bothered with laboratory experiments to prove the Ideal Rocket Equation; he would have instead insisted that Tsiolkovsky prove it conclusively before he would even discuss it. Kepler would never have worked on a sun-centered model and no one at CERN would ever have been looking for a Higgs particle. The "prove it first" chorus isn't science and never has been; proving it is science.

For me, for someone who has spent the past five years dragging the stone up the hill, perspective is a good thing to have. The lack of progress, the unwillingness to move off existing theories even when they don't work, and the inability to conceive of something new isn't just my imagination. I've got about a year to finish the theory if I want to publish in 2021. I don't even know if this is possible; maybe it isn't. But, so far, I've made more progress than anyone else in the field and I'm not stopping.
 
The lack of progress, the unwillingness to move off existing theories even when they don't work, and the inability to conceive of something new isn't just my imagination. I've got about a year to finish the theory if I want to publish in 2021. I don't even know if this is possible; maybe it isn't. But, so far, I've made more progress than anyone else in the field and I'm not stopping.
I'm not saying you should stop. I just don't think you're going to get anywhere.

Why don't you pick one of those fundamental scientific quandaries you've claimed to disprove and actually disprove it, instead of finding more rogue geniuses to compare yourself to?

Here's a good one:
  • Disproving brain/Turing Machine equivalence.
Now that would be a hell of a trick.
 
Hours ago I sat down at this table, and I've been waiting for someone to serve me dinner. No one has. I'm so disappointed.

No, the table isn't in a restaurant, it's in the kitchen tables display at an Ikea. But they serve food here, right? And it isn't dinner time. And I haven't actually asked anyone for dinner. People keep coming by and asking me what I want, but I figure if they're so dumb they have to ask, they aren't going to be competent to prepare any dinner I'd be willing to eat. So I ignore them.

What a worthless place this is.

On the upside, while I'm sitting here hungry and fuming in self-pity, I have plenty of time to post in this thread. So, barehl, what do you want from other members here?
 

Back
Top Bottom