Citizenship Test

[shanek]

edited to add: there's some ambiguity as to whether the XXII amendment applies to being president, or being elected president.

Actually, that's incorrect:

No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

The question here is not about whether or not it deals with being elected, but what "a term" means.

 

[shanek]

What does it mean to say, "rights come from nature"?

Is there some sort of scientific experiment I can do that will tell me exactly which rights nature gave me and which rights it didn't?

ALL your rights come from nature. If no one is applying any sort of force against you in your life, you are free to exercise your rights. It's only when someone else initiates force against you that your rights are violated, which means you are justified in defending yourself against those who initiate force against you, and we are justified in forming a government whose purpose is to preserve our rights and guard against those who initiate force against us.

People wrote the Constitution; nature didn't.

But the Constitution DOES NOT GIVE YOU RIGHTS. In EVERY case, the rights are assumed to be preexisting.

People decided which rights to include in the Bill of Rights and which to leave out; nature didn't.

Uh, 9th Amendment?

Other countries have laws and forms of government that differ from the USA's. So it would appear that rights don't come from nature, or, at the very least, that people can't tell which ones do and which ones don't, which makes the whole idea pretty useless.

No, it just means that people's rights are being violated. Did the slaves not have rights when they were slaves?

 

[Zamzara]

Your dictionary is bupkis. What the Constitution says matters.



The Constitution DEFINES the government. If there's nothing in the Constitution about us being a democracy, WE AREN'T A DEMOCRACY. Our founding fathers feared and loathed democracies since they're a tyranny of the majority, and by far most of the things they talked about in the Constitutional Convention was trying to avoid the formation of a democracy.

The constitution doesn't define what a democracy is: a democracy is defined as a nation where the people choose the government. Therefore the US is a democracy, unless you are claiming democracy does not mean that.

If the question in the test had been 'How is the US government described in the constitution', I would agree the answer is Republican. But that wasn't the question.

 

[drkitten]

The constitution doesn't define what a democracy is: a democracy is defined as a nation where the people choose the government. Therefore the US is a democracy, unless you are claiming democracy does not mean that.

But the people, at least as designed in the Constitution, do not chose the government. They choose the people who choose the government, but that's different.

For example, one doesn't vote for President; one votes for the Electoral College, who then votes for President. Until a later amendment, one didn't vote for Senators, either. One voted for state legislators, who voted for Senators. One doesn't vote for Federal judges, either --- they are selected and voted upon by people who have been voted into office. The only part of the Federal government that can really be described as "a democracy" would be half of a third of a the government -- the House of Representatives.

 

[Darat]

Then how come the USA keeps pushing democracy as an ideal around the world? Perhaps it should start at home first?

You have to admit its really a pedants point this idea that the USA is not a democracy, indeed I've heard time and time again current and past Presidents of the USA describing the USA as a democracy.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Then how come the USA keeps pushing democracy as an ideal around the world? Perhaps it should start at home first?

You have to admit its really a pedants point this idea that the USA is not a democracy, indeed I've heard time and time again current and past Presidents of the USA describing the USA as a democracy.

Technically, the US is a representative democracy. A pure democracy is where a bunch of Greeks assemble and decide every single issue by having all of the citizens vote on it. It was deemed impractical for a nation of any size larger than a small village. The Greeks actually got around it by defining "citizen" to exclude the majority of the population.

 

[Darat]

Technically, the US is a representative democracy. A pure democracy is where a bunch of Greeks assemble and decide every single issue by having all of the citizens vote on it. It was deemed impractical for a nation of any size larger than a small village. The Greeks actually got around it by defining "citizen" to exclude the majority of the population.

Then I suppose we would have to say there are no democratic countries in the world! The UK certainly isn't and I can't think of any EU country that is.

Easiest thing for it is that I'll continue to describe the UK as a democratic country, and I'll refer to the USA as a non-democratic country. That's right isn’t it?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Then I suppose we would have to say there are no democratic countries in the world! The UK certainly isn't and I can't think of any EU country that is.

Easiest thing for it is that I'll continue to describe the UK as a democratic country, and I'll refer to the USA as a non-democratic country. That's right isn’t it?

Under the definition of pure democracy, no, there aren't any true democratic nations. But insisting on making the common usage of the word meet that definition is akin to the people who say "Virginia is not a state, it's a commonwealth!" (And who never answer when I say "I guess that I should get all the money back that's listed as taken out for 'state taxes', then?")

And the USA isn't non-democratic. We're a theocracy. Whoops. I mean, an empire. Whoops. I mean, uh, we're .....freedomphiles! Yay! USA! USA!

(Please disregard our ambitions for a world-spanning imperial theocracy. They don't exist.)

 

[Bluegill]

Which reminds me. Here's a question that surprises some people: How do the citizens of Kentucky pronounce the name of their state capital: "LOO-ee-vil" or "LOO-uh-vil"?

Neither. The capital of Kentucky is Frankfort.

Most of us say, "DORK-town".

 

[Brown]

Here's another one. Can you name five United States presidents that are NOT buried in the United States?

Ford, Carter, Bush (41), Clinton, Bush (43).
Technically speaking, President Grant is "entombed," not buried. Perhaps this is also true for other deceased presidents.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Here's another one. Can you name five United States presidents that are NOT buried in the United States?

Ford, Carter, Bush (41), Clinton, Bush (43).
Technically speaking, President Grant is "entombed," not buried. Perhaps this is also true for other deceased presidents.

You forgot that James Monroe is a vampire. His crypt is in the US, true, but he leaves it nightly to seek sustenance from the blood of the living.

 

[Bluegill]

Your dictionary is bupkis. What the Constitution says matters.

Well, I'm never playing Scrabble with you.

 

[shanek]

The constitution doesn't define what a democracy is: a democracy is defined as a nation where the people choose the government.

No, it isn't. A democracy is when a majority of people define the government and make the rules. That isn't how this country is set up. Democracy is majority rules; it is also minority lose.

If the question in the test had been 'How is the US government described in the constitution', I would agree the answer is Republican. But that wasn't the question.

How the US government is described in the Constitution IS how the US government IS. There's just no way around it. We're a republic, BY DEFINITION.

 

[shanek]

You have to admit its really a pedants point this idea that the USA is not a democracy,

It's NOT a pedant's point. A democracy was one of the forms of tyranny our founding fathers were adamant about avoiding.

indeed I've heard time and time again current and past Presidents of the USA describing the USA as a democracy.

Yes, well, they've also described ketchup as a vegetable, so you'll pardon me if I don't take too much stock in what Presidents say.

 

[Art Vandelay]

The Constitution DEFINES the government. If there's nothing in the Constitution about us being a democracy, WE AREN'T A DEMOCRACY.

The Constitution never states that we are in the Western Hemisphere. I take it that it is therefore your position that we are not in the Western Hemisphere?

Uh, ever READ the Emancipation Proclamation?

Yes. Now where's your cite?

Again, I point to the debates in the Constitutional Convention.

Do those debates show that the two are mutually exclusive?

why would it be incorrect to call the first ten amendments of a constitution, "the first ten amendments of the constitution"?

Where is this question coming from? I suppose that in a sense, they are one amendment, since they were adopted at the same time.

 

[Fade]

The Constitution never states that we are in the Western Hemisphere. I take it that it is therefore your position that we are not in the Western Hemisphere?

I have seen this argument used before, and it never ceases to be violently retarded.

We are a Republic. Our Republic happens to come about through a democratic election. We are still a Republic. You can't warp words to suit you when you want them to suit you.

Well, in a U.S. citizenship test, it is pretty safe to assume that "the Constitution" refers to the U.S. Constitution. Irregardless, [sic] with any constitution, why would it be incorrect to call the first ten amendments of a constitution, "the first ten amendments of the constitution"?

Irregardless is not a word. At least, it is an extremely nonstandard word that has somehow snuck into the common usage of many people. The prefix "ir" and the suffix "less" mean the same thing, in this case, so the word would mean "without regard to without regard to." Anyway, pet peeve of mine.


It is incorrect for reasons I have stated, and reasons Shane has stated. A logic professor of mine once wrote a test, wherein the last question was:

Mr. Saunders is 41 years old.
[] True
[] False
[] Unknown


Mr. Saunders was the teacher, he was also 41 years old at the time and had said so.

The correct answer was:
[X] Unknown

Mr. Saunders was not adequately defined in that statement. There was another Mr. Saunders that taught Biology or something - I don't quite remember what - and he was far older. The term "Bill of Rights" has an unambiguous meaning. The term "first tend amendments to the constitution" does not, because it could mean any constitution.

 

[LostAngeles]

90, 90, 95, 90, 100.

I got an A.

 

[LostAngeles]

I made 100%, but I found a few problems: The Emancipation Proclamation didn't actually free any slaves, Abraham Lincoln did NOT free the slaves (he wasn't even alive when it happened), and the Declaration of Independence was adopted on July 2, not July 4.

Some questions that fewer people might get right:

1) How many articles of amendment were originally proposed in the Bill of Rights?
15
2) How many of these have been ratified into the Constitution?
10
3) On what date did Congress sign the Declaration of Independence?
Never. Unless you mean the Continental Congress. Which I think was established for that. And the Articles. But I don't remember.
4) On what date was the Constitution ratified?
Sometime in March
5) What document created the United States of America?
The Articles of Confederation
6) Who ORIGINALLY chose the senators?
The governors of the states
7) Who placed his signature on a proposed Constitutional amendment which said, "No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State"?
I don't know, and I won't guess.
8) What document freed the slaves?
13th Amendment
9) In what year did Congress gain the Constitutional authority to levy an Income Tax?
1916 or Never.
10) What is the maximum number of years someone could serve as President?
Under the current constitution, eight.

How'd I do?

 

[shanek]

The Constitution never states that we are in the Western Hemisphere. I take it that it is therefore your position that we are not in the Western Hemisphere?

Are you saying it's impossible for a region in the Eastern Hemisphere to become a state? You're babbling irrelevancies.

Yes. Now where's your cite?

The Emancipation Proclamation ITSELF says that! I don't NEED a cite! And if you really DID read it, you would KNOW it said that!

That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free;...and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.

Now, do you have a cite saying otherwise?

Do those debates show that the two are mutually exclusive?

Yes. Madison, in particular, was quite adamant about that.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I have seen this argument used before, and it never ceases to be violently retarded.

How is it any different fronm shanek's?

We are a Republic. Our Republic happens to come about through a democratic election. We are still a Republic. You can't warp words to suit you when you want them to suit you.

I never claimed that the US is not a Republic. The issue is whether it is a democracy, an issue you have utterly failed to address. Seeing as how shanek has declared that he will not accept dictionary definitions of words, it is ironic that you would accuse me of twisting words to suit me.