Chiropractors work!?

[JoeTheJuggler]

The problem with these successful anecdotes is if the treatment really was the cause of the improvement and not merely coincidental, then the results should show up in controlled studies and it does not. There is an irresistible allure of the personal experience that seems so unlikely to have been a coincidence. A critical thinker resists the urge and looks instead at the research which can tease out what was coincidence (no matter how convincing) and what is causal. Causal will always be detectible in properly done controlled studies. ALWAYS.

Exactly. (And also to Pipelineaudio's comment.)

One problem (among many) with these anecdotes is that they are essentially only counting the hits and ignoring the misses.

That's one of the reasons why a properly done controlled study doesn't have a sample size of one.

 

[Agammamon]

Its been acknowledged for a while that *some* of what chiropracters do has real benefit.

Unfortunately for chiropracty its about the same benefit as a vigourous massage.

The real problem with chirpracty is that the underlying theory is crap. We know its crap and it being crap prevents any useful large scale analysis of what does and does not work or provide a coherent framework to find promisng reseach avenues.

Well in addition to allowing every woo to make up **** to try on patients without worrying about things like does it do anything useful.

 

[bruto]

I hear that yesterday a Chiropracter got into a car, turned the key, put the shift in drive, and went where he intended. Absolutely amazing. I think I'm going to fire all my old fashioned doctors after this proof.

 

[volcano]

My chiro story, sort of:

I'd developed moderate lower-back pain. My doctor (MD) had said there really wasn't a lot that he could do, but a couple of friends were pushing me to see their chiros. I held off, of course, but it really was wearing me down so after a couple of months, I agreed that I'd go see one of the chiropractors on the following Monday.

I really meant to, but I got tied up in some crisis at work so I deferred it.

And on Tuesday morning, the pain was significantly lower. Wednesday was better yet, and by Friday I was feeling almost normal.

And the thing that haunts me is: If I'd actually gone to the chiropractor when I'd said I would, I'd be on this thread saying, "well, it worked for me. The next day, I felt much better, and I was almost fully recovered by the end of the week."

See, chiropractic treatment is so effective you don't even have to go! You just have to think about going!

 

[quarky]

I gave it a shot, long ago, for debilitating back pain.
It didn't work, though I suspect it was my skepticism that screwed me out of a cheap cure.
The chiro-dude bragged to me about their all natural approach; etc, and then proceeded to hook me up to weird instruments that delivered low voltage shocks.
I mentioned the irony to him, plus I had a working knowledge of anatomy.

He hated me, yet told me that I would need to keep coming in, weekly, forever.

Later in life, a family friend was a chiropractor, and he so believed in his mission that he would do adjustments on new-born infants.

I basically hate them, which, I realize, is detrimental to a decent fix.

 

[Blue Wode]

I'm just stating my experience.

My Chiropractic experience: Written on June 22nd 2012, as experienced on June 21st 2012

As a sceptic, and since I’ve heard that Chiropractors have NO scientific evidence to back up the results they claim...

-snip-

I realize that this is PURE testimonial, and I don’t support any quackery, but lets get this over with. Please don’t flame me, but go ahead and ask me any follow up questions for details!

To ensure that you understand this fully, I do not believe in anything that is not proven

Then what was the point in starting this thread if you understand that testimonials are essentially worthless?

The plural of "anecdote" still is not evidence "randomly assigned, controlled study".

-snip-

So what exactly does it mean to say that chiropractic "works"?

If you have a headache, and you apply Head-On, and your headache subsides, does it follow that Head-On "works"? Isn't this exactly the same reasoning being proffered here?

Quite.

...A critical thinker resists the urge and looks instead at the research which can tease out what was coincidence (no matter how convincing) and what is causal. Causal will always be detectible in properly done controlled studies. ALWAYS.

Kogloron, although you're a self-confessed skeptic, I would suggest that you sharpen up your critical thinking skills.

The late Barry Beyerstein, who was Professor of Psychology at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, knew all too well about common errors of reasoning in relation to medicine, and especially in relation to alternative medicine. He wrote an excellent essay, Social and judgmental biases that make inert treatments seem to work, which examined alternative medicine's popularity. The areas he looked at are as follows:

Psychological reasons for the popularity of alternative therapies:

The will to believe

Logical errors and lack of a control group

Judgmental shortcomings

Social and cultural reasons for the popularity of unproven therapies:

The low level of scientific literacy among the public at large

An increase in anti-intellectualism and anti-scientific attitudes riding on the coat-tails of New Age mysticism

Vigorous marketing of extravagant claims by the “alternative” medical community

Inadequate media scrutiny and attacking critics

Increasing social malaise and mistrust of traditional authority figures-the anti-doctor backlash

Dislike of the delivery methods of scientific biomedicine

Safety and side effects

Psychological distortion of reality

Self-serving biases and demand characteristics

Why might therapists and their clients who rely on anecdotal evidence and uncontrolled observations erroneously conclude that inert therapies work?

The disease may have run its natural course

Many diseases are cyclical

Spontaneous remission

The placebo effect and the need for randomized, double blind assessments

Some allegedly cured symptoms were probably psychosomatic to begin with

Symptomatic relief versus cure

Many consumers of alternative therapies hedge their bets

Misdiagnosis (by self or by a physician)

Derivative benefits

Full essay here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110713115406/http://www.sram.org/0302/bias.html

The entire essay is well worth a read.


With regard to chiropractic, after taking a thorough look at all the available evidence on chiropractic, impartial British scientists, Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst, propose on p.285 of their book, Trick or Treatment? Alternative Medicine on Trial, that all chiropractors be compelled by law to disclose to their patients prior to treatment:

“WARNING: This treatment carries the risk of stroke or death if spinal manipulation is applied to the neck. Elsewhere on the spine, chiropractic therapy is relatively safe. It has shown some evidence of benefit in the treatment of back pain, but conventional treatments are usually equally effective and much cheaper. In the treatment of all other conditions, chiropractic therapy is ineffective except that it might act as a placebo.”

Factor in all the quackery (how many people know to look for an evidence-based chiropractor?), and you have to wonder why anyone would risk their time, money, and life with chiropractic.

 

[Kogloron]

The plural of "anecdote" still is not evidence "randomly assigned, controlled study".

There are any number of reasons why you might get relief from mild back pain coinciding with (that is, shortly after) chiropractic treatment. It's possible the treatment might even have been a factor. But just because you experience relief after treatment doesn't mean it's the cause (post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy). An uncontrolled, unblinded "study" with a sample size of 1 doesn't mean much of anything.

So what exactly does it mean to say that chiropractic "works"?

If you have a headache, and you apply Head-On, and your headache subsides, does it follow that Head-On "works"? Isn't this exactly the same reasoning being proffered here?

[ETA: And the fact remains that chiropractic was invented by a guy who first subscribed to magnetic healing, then thought he cured a guy's deafness with spinal manipulation and is based on his theory of chiropractic subluxations, a poorly defined idea born of ignorance about the way neurons work--at best. The strongest argument in favor of a given practitioner is that he rejects all that stuff. Of course, that raises the obvious question, if you reject all that stuff, then why do you call yourself a "doctor of chiropractic" instead of becoming an honest massage therapist?]

This is closer to the type of response I was expecting! And I totally agree with you, a sample of a SINGLE person is not worth much! I understand cause and effect, and I admit there is a very very small chance (like winning the lottery) that my pain would have disappeared on it's own in that 30 second window without treatment.

The inventor of the chiropractic treatment seems like a loony to me too! Seems to me like he invented a bunch of scientific wording to give his treatment a good word. I would dismiss his claim of curing deafness outright as well, it just doesn't seem plausible, especially given his history of "making things up".

Just because someone makes up most of what they say, doesn't mean that none of it is true though! modern day chiropractors need a new name! I felt a little ashamed saying that I went to visit a "chiropractor" I would have rather been able to say that I was fixed by a "spinal column specialist"

I got another full nights sleep, and my mobility levels haven't gone down today! You described that your pain levels had gone down over a period of days following your "missed appointment" my pain levels went down within seconds! Like my original story stated, I was in pain, he popped my upper back/neck a few times and then i got up 30 seconds later i had SIGNIFICANT gains to my movement and the pain in my back was gone entirely! Coincidence? Very very very unlikely! Especially since i was locked up for 6 weeks prior to that! then BAM fixed!

 

[Kogloron]

I don't get it. Why is there apologetics for chiropractic on this board? Isnt it a 100% scam, isnt "the theory of chiropractic" complete and utter rubbish?

So what if a stopped clock is right twice a day?

Damn right! The theory behind it IS rubbish! I want to know WHY it worked! I'm not giving credit to the chiropractic theory, I'm giving credit to the ONE person who worked on me, and did what he did!

It worked, and I don't for a second think it had anything to do with subluxations.
It very well could be that he did what my physiotherapist was trying to do - he took the pressure off of the nerve, except he did it instantly!

 

[Kogloron]

The problem with these successful anecdotes is if the treatment really was the cause of the improvement and not merely coincidental, then the results should show up in controlled studies and it does not. There is an irresistible allure of the personal experience that seems so unlikely to have been a coincidence. A critical thinker resists the urge and looks instead at the research which can tease out what was coincidence (no matter how convincing) and what is causal. Causal will always be detectible in properly done controlled studies. ALWAYS.

I think a controlled study is needed. This really was instant. The pain was not in my mind, I was immobile (license suspended). My physiotherapist will see me next week, he wants me at 80% mobility before he will let me have my license back! Last time he saw me (19th of June) I was at 1/8th mobility. And right now i can safety, and quickly do a shoulder check while driving again! This was seconds after my chiropractic treatment.

A study needs to be done to clear out the garbage claims and filter out what really works. And then to develop real theories as to why they're working!

 

[Modified]

I think a controlled study is needed. This really was instant. The pain was not in my mind, I was immobile (license suspended). My physiotherapist will see me next week, he wants me at 80% mobility before he will let me have my license back! Last time he saw me (19th of June) I was at 1/8th mobility. And right now i can safety, and quickly do a shoulder check while driving again! This was seconds after my chiropractic treatment.

A study needs to be done to clear out the garbage claims and filter out what really works. And then to develop real theories as to why they're working!

Even if it does work for some people, that doesn't mean that on average it is useful, since it may just as often cause harm.

 

[Kogloron]

I hear that yesterday a Chiropracter got into a car, turned the key, put the shift in drive, and went where he intended. Absolutely amazing. I think I'm going to fire all my old fashioned doctors after this proof.

I know what you're saying. And today my heart is going to beat exactly 78480 times! WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

Please ask me a constructive question.

 

[Kogloron]

I gave it a shot, long ago, for debilitating back pain.
It didn't work, though I suspect it was my skepticism that screwed me out of a cheap cure.
The chiro-dude bragged to me about their all natural approach; etc, and then proceeded to hook me up to weird instruments that delivered low voltage shocks.
I mentioned the irony to him, plus I had a working knowledge of anatomy.

He hated me, yet told me that I would need to keep coming in, weekly, forever.

Later in life, a family friend was a chiropractor, and he so believed in his mission that he would do adjustments on new-born infants.

I basically hate them, which, I realize, is detrimental to a decent fix.

I would hate them too if they were like that. I have to give you a quick reminder though.
Quoted from whatstheharm.net
In its original form, chiropractic is a form of energy medicine based on unscientific principles such as 'innate intelligence'. To be fair, not all current chiropractors still believe in these concepts.

I think you got a quack!

 

[Tatyana]

I highly suspect the 'chiros' on this thread are actually using physiotherapy techniques in most of the cases.

When I injure myself or hurt my back, my physio can put it right in one session most of the time.

 

[Kogloron]

Factor in all the quackery (how many people know to look for an evidence-based chiropractor?), and you have to wonder why anyone would risk their time, money, and life with chiropractic.

To address everything you said would be quite a mess! I don't have all the answers for you! And I've stated before that more study is needed, and it needs to clear up all the garbage that doesn't work. That would also mean renaming the practice entirely!

My time was worthless, i couldn't move, my sleep quality was poor, and TBH i WAS a little scared for my life! The money wasn't mine, I really hope you read everything I said! My dad paid for the treatment. My license is suspended because I can't move very well, so he drives me to/from work (I'm lucky he lives around the corner)

He made me an appointment and drove me to the clinic instead of home after work.

I could not forcefully move my head to the right before the treatment, immediately after the treatment i was able to look over my right shoulder!

I am not looking to prove a point, I am looking for the reason WHY?
I want to know what he did to me! The treatment that he gave me following the Xrays was effective. Either that, or my body suddenly decided to limber up my neck to be able to move in the 30 second time span before/after his adjustment.

 

[Kogloron]

Even if it does work for some people, that doesn't mean that on average it is useful, since it may just as often cause harm.

Very good point of view. This is what I'm looking for. Or maybe Canada has different rules to become a chiropractor?
I should consider myself lucky* then!


Note: I don't believe in luck, it's figurative.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think a controlled study is needed. This really was instant. The pain was not in my mind, I was immobile (license suspended). My physiotherapist will see me next week, he wants me at 80% mobility before he will let me have my license back! Last time he saw me (19th of June) I was at 1/8th mobility. And right now i can safety, and quickly do a shoulder check while driving again! This was seconds after my chiropractic treatment.

A study needs to be done to clear out the garbage claims and filter out what really works. And then to develop real theories as to why they're working!

Why do you think those studies have not been done? Don't you think the chiropractors themselves would want to fund research that supports their field?

Many studies have been done, convincing evidence cannot be found. There is evidence some therapy chiropractors do works as well as physical therapy, probably because it is similar. Spinal manipulation cannot be shown to have any effect whatsoever.

Consider another explanation. Of all the millions of people with billions of incidents of pain, a fair number of those people are going to have a cause that is rapidly reversible. Now take the number of those people with the rapidly reversible cause (remember this is over many many years) who will at some point visit a chiropractor for treatment. It is now not so incredible to see that a few people with the rapidly reversible condition will coincidentally have that reversal happen when they are being treated.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....To be fair, not all current chiropractors still believe in these concepts....

I've seen this apology before. So I looked at the Colleges that teach Chiropractic care. Not a single one of them rejects spinal manipulation in the curriculum.

Until they do, I find the claim no more than apologetics.

 

[SezMe]

A study needs to be done to clear out the garbage claims and filter out what really works. And then to develop real theories as to why they're working!

Please ask me a constructive question.

Didn't you make an unwarranted assumption with your second sentence above?

 

[Kogloron]

Consider another explanation. Of all the millions of people with billions of incidents of pain, a fair number of those people are going to have a cause that is rapidly reversible. Now take the number of those people with the rapidly reversible cause (remember this is over many many years) who will at some point visit a chiropractor for treatment. It is now not so incredible to see that a few people with the rapidly reversible condition will coincidentally have that reversal happen when they are being treated.

Excellent point, I'm not going to get anywhere with my current claims! I can't say for certain that my pain was relieved because of the treatment.

I have a counter for this however.

Why can I suddenly move again? Pain is superficial and open to interpretation. Movement is not. I can demonstrate my increase in mobility, I see it, others see it, and the change is not slight.

To restate my movement so that you need not re-read my first post. I was able to turn my head 1/8th to the right before the chiropractor "popped" my neck, immediately after the treatment (we're talking a span of 30 seconds) I was able to look fully to my right! Today I am holding solid and able to look MOST of the way to the right, but not as much as directly after the treatment.

Pain is too hard to determine, I can claim whatever I want, but it can't be reliably measured. My range of head motion can be determined so we'll use that as the point of reference from now on.

Going against what I just said (and simply to make note that i am appraoching this treatment from both sides) I would like to mention, that my arm pain has very slowly been getting worse since the treatment. Maybe it's related, maybe it's not. Just wanted to put that statement on the record so that you guys know that I'm not making up things like "Miaracle cure OMG, fixed me 100%" My back pain is holding solid at 1/10.

 

[Kogloron]

Didn't you make an unwarranted assumption with your second sentence above?

I guess I did. Just ask me whatever you want. If I can't answer you I'll tell you as much. Remember, I'm not looking at any positive/negative studies done in the past. I am looking at the sudden fixing effect that I experienced. As was mentioned by someone else, it's possible that he used some physiotherapy techniques to fix me. If that turns out to be the case then I guess I was fixed by a physiotherapist who calls himself a chiropractor!

Either way, my goal here is to find an explanation as to how my range of motion was suddenly fixed. And I will always mention that this is not a fix over a period of time, this was a very sudden fix in a period of 30 seconds after over 6 weeks of being immobile.