Chiropractic, Docs vs. Quacks?

[bigred]

I've said this before, so won't labour it. I have dealt with one chiro. He greatly alleviated a neck problem, but had no effect on a lumbar one, (which later investigation suggests has an organic, not musculoskeletal origin). He was methodical, took detailed notes, asked many questions and listened to the answers. I saw nothing in any way "woo" and the word "subluxation"was not used, ever.
I saw him a handful of times over a few months for the first problem and go back once every year or two, as I feel necessary. I was never pressured into a course of sessions. Frankly, if all GPs were as accessible and responsive, I would be happier.
That said, I realise I'm comparing private treatment with NHS, but if I could find a GP I trusted for thirty quid a half hour session, I for one would be happy to visit every six months like I do the dentist.

All I'm saying is there are good ones. Maybe I was lucky. One is a small sample. They do backs and limbs, and as Jyera said, some of them do it well. If they claim they can fix your fallen arches or straighten your teeth, leave at once.

This is also anecdotal, but I, my father, and a number of people I know have gone to chiros. They have had great success.....AFTER going to GPs where they had precious little. So, yes, chiros do indeed fill a gap....and I suspect are successful more often than not because what they do works, not because they promise the moon and don't deliver (ie just because those exist it doesn't invalidate the vast majority who aren't like that...at least that's my impression). And I've yet to experience or hear one story about being prompted to come back for more unless deemed necessary, ie there was no feeling of it being a way to just get more money out of you (ie similar to how a so-called "regular" doctor would do).

 

[Jyera]

Anyone knows why big is the Chiropractic industry and market?

If the industry is not trivial, I would say they are here to stay, and that they do fill a gap.

Then meaningful action is to help the Chiropractic industry improve their own quality.

On the other hand if we think that they are just a big bunch of quack. And that they do not fill any gap. Then as an industry, why aren't they considered a syndication of con-man and handled via law accordingly?
Why is there hesitation in imposing clear and firm regulation to restrict them?

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Anyone knows why big is the Chiropractic industry and market?

If the industry is not trivial, I would say they are here to stay, and that they do fill a gap.

No. Wrong inference. There is a big market because too many people are mugs and the politicians don't care enough. There is also an implicit assumption by the authorities controlling medicine that the people engaged in many "alternative" medical practices are doing it with honest intent. Unfortunately we have discovered an extraordinarily high level of deceit and lying.

Anyone knows why big is the Chiropractic industry and market?

If the industry is not trivial, I would say they are here to stay, and that they do fill a gap.

Then meaningful action is to help the Chiropractic industry improve their own quality.

On the other hand if we think that they are just a big bunch of quack. And that they do not fill any gap. Then as an industry, why aren't they considered a syndication of con-man and handled via law accordingly?
Why is there hesitation in imposing clear and firm regulation to restrict them?

You seem to be making a point that the persistence of these activities in some way validates them, but that is untrue because politics is not that simple. There are plenty of frauds being perpetrated on the public in the name of "alternative" medicine. Unfortunately there is currently more danger to a politician in standing up to this than allowing it to continue.

 

[Jyera]

You seem to be making a point that the persistence of these activities in some way validates them,

Persistence of activities are just that, they persist. I wouldn't know if it validates anything except a persistence presence.

But from pragmatic point of view, when an industry gets very big, many people's livelihood may depend on this industry.

When a whole industry is "wrong". You cannot simply erase the mistake without causing much disruption to all those involved. Somebody allowed the industry to go wrong, perhaps by failing to act. But since you cannot turn back the clock, the hope has to be placed in the future. The way to influence future might be to act.

And none better to act than the leaders of chiropractic.
Just as a communist leaders should reform their country slowly or decisively.
The leaders of the chiropractic professions bears the responsibility to reform.

Assuming many chiropractor falls short of a demanding standard for a competent and effective chiropractor, these employed people in the chiropractic industry need help to be redeployed. Re-deployed away from their daily dose of lies. Competent sweet-talker should be deployable to sells stuff other.

Unfortunately for some, chiropractor, they might have to make big changes. If chiropractic is totally BS, and they have actually stopped doing it, and they only ended up giving advise similar to a medical doctor. Then I'm afraid he should stop work and get a proper Medical Doctor certification.

Can they be turned into competent physotherapist specialised in spinal message?
Can they be turned into competent nurses speciallised treating dislocation?
Competent nurses do gets highly paid tending to the needs of the rich patient by providing private nursing care.

but that is untrue because politics is not that simple. There are plenty of frauds being perpetrated on the public in the name of "alternative" medicine. Unfortunately there is currently more danger to a politician in standing up to this than allowing it to continue.

I do not know much about politics. But I trust they are concern with people's livelihood.

May I suggest we stick to just Chiropractic. Are you suggesting that Chiropractors are "illegally" practising alternative medicine, to the detriment of their professional conduct? In this case Chiropractic body need to regulate their members properly.

Fraud should be very easy to handled by the law, isn't it ?
And the leaders of Chiropractic body have the responisbility to keep their guys in line, don't they? Eg, revoke a license to practice Chiropractic when fraud cases are brought against the errand practitioner.

If a Chiropractor comes to our forum, instead of bombarding him about the lies and fraud of his fellow practioner, I think it might be better to hope we can influence them to change their industry from the inside.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Chiropractic started in Canada. It was a philosophy as much as a religion as described by the "father of chiropactic" - DD Palmer. He claims he cured somebody's deafness by cracking his back.

Palmer was not the least bit interested in medicine. He wanted to run a business based on a theory.
In palmer's own words:
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/chiro-religion.html

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2004/07/chiropractic-science-or-religion.html
http://www.chirobase.org/12Hx/discovery.html

http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/quackery/id11.html

His son took on the ball, and really rolled with it. There was NEVER any medically valid treatment involved.

The only reason it is around? Well, the poor saps go to chiro schools and end up paying high tuition fees. They have to open practices to survive and pay back their debts.

The only way to stop chiropractic is to make the schools teach a scientifically valid education. They would have to become medical schools. Chiros would no longer exist as they would actually have to become MDs. The old school miseducated folks would eventually die out.

But then other schools would have to do the same. Naturopaths, homeopaths, etc. wannabes would finally have to go to real schools and become educated rather than miseducated.

This is never going to happen. For some reason you are allowed to charge to teach rubbish. Then you give out diplomas and the folks figure they are qualified to treat. They even want to dispense pharmaceuticals at their leisure. It really peaves them when they are told they would have to go to a real school...that doesn't fit their worldview or philosophy on the human condition. They want to believe in healing energies, subluxations, and faith healing. They've had their beliefs validated by their edumacations.

Why are chiros practicing? Well, for the same reason naturopaths, homeopaths, accupuncturists, etc. do. People begin to believe it's having some effect. They start to think they can't live without it. They are told they can't live without it.

.....AFTER going to GPs where they had precious little.

Oh really? And what advice did they get from the GP? A GP is not a back specialist. They can refer people. Is it too much work to get a referral? Then the reasons for the pain are explored and there are a variety of treatments available.

http://www.umm.edu/spinecenter/education/lumbar_herniated_disc.html

http://oapa.com/faq.html

http://www.jeffersonhospital.org/news/2003/article7981.html

Why manage pain with a quack? Get some real help and live pain free. There are prevenatative measures and exercises for a start. Then there are other problems that can be diagnosed and cured. Ever heard of scoliosis?

Don't buy into the myth that there are gaps in care. Some folks might want to hear a chiro will do instead of gettting some exercise. Manage pain instead of going after the cause? Sure, it's easier. Whatever you want to tell yourself instead of actually fixing the problem.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Eos, we're talking about different parts of the world, different health systems, different cultures.
There certainly are perceived gaps in health care. If this was not so, CAM would not be a growth industry and we would not be seeing stuff like the Smallwood report in Britain being taken seriously.

In the specific case of chiro there is a credibility window- joint and spinal manipulation unquestionably does have effects - potentially both beneficial and harmful, which should be done by properly qualified professionals. Call them physiotherapists or sports massagers and it seems "respectable" , but it becomes less acceptable to the mainstream at the chiro / osteopathy end of the spectrum, because their training is not properly regulated and both disciplines seem to carry some nonsensical baggage. The matter of regulation is critical. I think BSM, Jyera and everyone is pretty much saying the same thing here. Manipulation has it's uses, which we don't want to lose. If a chiro acts like a physio, is he a physio? I don't know.

It's a muddle. It needs sorting. That I do know.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Eos, we're talking about different parts of the world, different health systems, different cultures.
There certainly are perceived gaps in health care. If this was not so, CAM would not be a growth industry and we would not be seeing stuff like the Smallwood report in Britain being taken seriously.

In the specific case of chiro there is a credibility window- joint and spinal manipulation unquestionably does have effects - potentially both beneficial and harmful, which should be done by properly qualified professionals. Call them physiotherapists or sports massagers and it seems "respectable" , but it becomes less acceptable to the mainstream at the chiro / osteopathy end of the spectrum, because their training is not properly regulated and both disciplines seem to carry some nonsensical baggage. The matter of regulation is critical. I think BSM, Jyera and everyone is pretty much saying the same thing here. Manipulation has it's uses, which we don't want to lose. If a chiro acts like a physio, is he a physio? I don't know.

It's a muddle. It needs sorting. That I do know.

What? A chiro needs "proper training" to do this supposed "beneficial manipulation"? You indicate that's a necessity. Then why take somebody, fill their heads with religion/philosophy, and release them to the world to try to do a job better done by someone properly educated? Not only that, but they discourage vaccination and/or proper medical care for treatable conditions they misdiagnose. Then they propogate myths that they are the only ones that can provide a service for some made up gap in care.

Who needs this headache?

Give me a properly trained orthopaedic or back specialist that can tell me for sure if I need some air pushed out of my joints or just improved posture. I don't need an antivaccine supplement pusher to tell me I need "regular maintanence".

CAM would not be a growth industry if people weren't so misguided and easily fooled into believing that homeopath/chiropractic/naturopathy is "naturally better for you" than supposed "pill pushing body chopping allopathy". Perceptions are made through miseducation. You want to buy into the lie that there are gaps because quacks say so, then be my guest. I don't believe it for a second.

Perception. This sympathy for the poor saps that get into chiropractic is understandable for some of them. Others are med school drop-outs though. Still more find the philosophy/religious angle more appealing than the scientific "mainstream". Their training is perfectly acceptable for their standards. Therein lies the problem. There is no fixing it.

I've had emails from chiros trying to tell me their neck adustments are no more dangerous than getting your hair shampooed at the beauty parlor. Okay???? Whatever dude. Try telling me the risk for stroke by getting your necked whipped around and cracked is as negligible as getting your head massaged as the beauty parlor. Sorry, not buying it. I've seen the videos. There's no comparison. They are freaking kidding themselves or lying their heads off.

Different cultures? Chiropractic is chiropractic. There is only one father of Chiropractic, and there is only one type of chiropractice.

http://www.chiroandosteo.com/content/13/1/17

We believe that an evidence-orientation among chiropractors requires that we distinguish between subluxation dogma vs. subluxation as the potential focus of clinical research. We lament efforts to generate unity within the profession through consensus statements concerning subluxation dogma, and believe that cultural authority will continue to elude us so long as we assert dogma as though it were validated clinical theory.

Dump chiropractic. You cannot make green cheese be the moon.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I've had emails from chiros trying to tell me their neck adustments are no more dangerous than getting your hair shampooed at the beauty parlor.

The latter being a well-recognised cause of neck injury that the supposedly medically educated former should be keener to distance themselves from.

 

[Walter Wayne]

Those practising method have realigned obviously misplaced bones for years. From popping a dislocated shoulder back in to the first time a doctor saw a mishapen spine and thought "I bet I could just push that back into place" however long ago. Mechanical fixes of this sort have long been accepted by western medicine.

The term chiropractor refers to practitioners of a specific theory of medicine. A crack adding legimite medicine to his routine doesn't lend anymore credence to chiroprators than sprinkly someone tylenol in a bottle of "natural remedy" lends to herbal medicine.

 

[Mouthfire]

Those practising method have realigned obviously misplaced bones for years. From popping a dislocated shoulder back in to the first time a doctor saw a mishapen spine and thought "I bet I could just push that back into place" however long ago. Mechanical fixes of this sort have long been accepted by western medicine.

Hmmm... I'm a doctor, but I can't remember the last time I prescribed a spine manipulation for autism....

And that's only ONE of the quack claims made by chiro's.

 

[Walter Wayne]

Hmmm... I'm a doctor, but I can't remember the last time I prescribed a spine manipulation for autism....

And that's only ONE of the quack claims made by chiro's.

I was refering those chiro's who are starting to smack of medicine. There are those who have thrown away chiropractic theory and now work back problems and such. My complaint was that some people are acting like this means some chiropractors aren't frauds. In my opinion they still are as they call themselves chiropractors and a) don't use chiropractic theory and b) practice medicine without acreditation.

Hence my comment about importing knowledge from another field in a vain attempt to make yours seem legitimate.

Walt

 

[Soapy Sam]

Walter and EOS- I would have to be a very odd sceptic if I believed that a problem which had resisted treatment for many years and which improved dramatically after seeing a chiropractor actually improved for a completely unrelated reason: If one variable changes and the output also changes, one infers a causal relationship. That's how experiments work, whether the outcome meets our expectations or not. ( I went into the experiment with a profoundly sceptical attitude. I was surprised. It would be hypocritical of me not to accept that I was wrong.)
Now- if what we are doing here is discussing the epistemological question of "No TRUE (Scottish) chiropractor"- that certainly is a different issue.

I think Jyera - and certainly I- am interested only in the ability of an experienced manipulative therapist. If he calls himself Chiropractor or osteopath, that's the label he uses. Maybe the label should change.
This is partly semantics, but also a matter of registration. Perhaps what's required is a government advisory as found on cigarettes- "The Surgeon General has determined that this guy is pretty good with back manipulation, but if you're here to get your teeth straightened, there's a shrink across the street."

There does seem to be a difference between what goes on under the label "Chiropractic" in America and what goes on in the UK and I get the feeling we are repeatedly talking about quite different things here.

I repeat. I only have experience with one man and I saw nothing woo in anything he did. This is not an endorsement of the whole world of Chiropractic, any more than approving the way a surgeon set my broken arm is an automatic endorsement of everything in orthopaedic surgery.

In one specific case, it certainly helped me. Message ends.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Why don't you simply ask his opinion on topics that other chiros seem to love to go on about? I'm talking about vaccination for one. Does your chiro tell mothers not to vaccinate? Does your chiro say babies need adjustment from day 1 to ensure health? I'll get you to read up on some chiro sites. One is no longer available for public viewing since it is an example of the the extreme "anti-allopath" that has been saved for posterity:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/noindex/comment/johnbaker.pdf

UK:
http://www.chiswickchiropracticclinic.co.uk/
(see the links below endorsing hypnotherapy and herbalism)

Chiros in UK and Accupuncture:

Dulwich Chiropractic Clinic
Acupuncture and reflexology for general health, infertility, gynaecology, and pregnancy in East Dulwich and Blackheath, South East London.
Location: East Dulwich
Postcode: SE22 9JH MAP
Telephone: 020 8693 1115

http://www.020.co.uk/c/chiropractors/london.shtml

Also in North Ireland:
http://www.bthcc.co.uk/
They kindly go on about subluxation on their home page.

Thus I have no choice but to conclude chiro schools are not so different anywhere in the world.

You say you found the one chiro that actually only treats back pain and doesn't have any notions about subluxation?

 

[Jyera]

Isn't there anything that CAN be done to the chiropractic situation ?

Are we aware of anyone doing anything about it?

MouthFire, what can be done by the doctors?
Can the doctor's professional body take action to define a new Title for Doctor? Eg. the use of "MDr." instead of "Dr.".

 

[steenkh]

As I have written many times before, there are different kinds of chiros. I have been at three different chiros in Denmark and compared treatment with many other patients. Not one of the danish chiros mentioned subluxations. I have discussed the topic with my chiro who thought it was an outmoded concept and at the institute in the U.S. where he got his education he was not taught about subluxations.

Apparently it is sometimes discussed among the sensible chiros if they could somehow distance themselves from the woo kind, but at least in Denmark the brand "chiropractor" has such a strength that they have decided against changing names.

My chiro has also never suggested that chiropractic can be used for anything else than muscle/joint problems.

 

[Mouthfire]

Isn't there anything that CAN be done to the chiropractic situation ?

Are we aware of anyone doing anything about it?

MouthFire, what can be done by the doctors?
Can the doctor's professional body take action to define a new Title for Doctor? Eg. the use of "MDr." instead of "Dr.".

In the US, the title "doctor" is completely unregulated by the government. I'm not sure there's a whole lot that can be done about it.

Also, I'm not sure how other MD's would feel about having their title changed.

 

[drkitten]

MouthFire, what can be done by the doctors?
Can the doctor's professional body take action to define a new Title for Doctor? Eg. the use of "MDr." instead of "Dr.".

I doubt it would work. People would still use the title Dr regardless of what the "official" name of the title was. Check Google -- there's something like 1000 entries for "baptist priest," and the Baptist church, by policy, does not have priests. (They have pastors, instead.)

 

[Nick Bogaerts]

From reading this thread, I get the distinct impression that some are using chiropractors as though they were physiotherapists. Why would this be? Are there not enough proper physios around? Do GPs ever recommend seeing chiropractors for back problems?

 

[steenkh]

From reading this thread, I get the distinct impression that some are using chiropractors as though they were physiotherapists. Why would this be? Are there not enough proper physios around? Do GPs ever recommend seeing chiropractors for back problems?

For me this question is easy: My wife had back problems long before I had, and she went to all kinds of physiotherapists for some years (well three different physios). She only got relief when she decided on a chiro.

I had my first chiro session 1 day before a longer journey where I could hardly move. After one session, the journey was safe. It was an emergency session where I could only find a chiro on duty on a saturday, and my wife persuaded me, although I was scared as hell.

His profesisonal treatment adn accurate diagnosis and later complete cure of problems that I had told noone about, has made me visit him twice a year.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm not going to say you would ever be mistruthful, but anecdotes are useless as there is no way to verify them.

Why was your wife seeing physiotherapists? Unexplained back pain? What was the diagnosis? Have you ever tried a physiotherapist? What causes YOUR back pain?

I'd just like to know why one seems to work, in your opinions, and why the other didn't.

You can understand my skepticism, right? What are the diagnosis? Is it still just unexplained back pain? How do I know YOU'RE not a chiro and not just making these testimonials up? How do I know your wife saw one physio, let alone 3?

I've never head of physio not working at all since most people do get a proper diagnosis and don't need back cracking to make the pain disappear.