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Chinese general - "Embrace American democracy"

I'll throw in my two cents here.

First, this is far from being the first such instance of General Liu saying something in public that the authorities don't particularly like. For several years, he had a public blog that addressed issues such as human rights in China, and even the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989. His position, and his family's connections/reputation, have helped shield him from serious punishment...but his public comments have undeniably hampered his promotion prospects within the Chinese military and government.

He went silent for awhile, but I'm happy to see him taking a public stance again.

This is something I'm always trying to emphasize to people outside of China. Outsiders tend to view the "Chinese Communist Government" and the "Chinese military" as some sort of cohesive structure that is committed to maintaining their own power at any cost, and to pursuing a program of repression.

In truth, it is much more complicated than that. Yes, there are people within both the gov't, and the military, whose main concern is maintaining their own power. But there are more and more people like General Liu who are working within the existing structure, and pushing for change. And as the older generation dies off (those who were part of the War of Liberation, and the Cultural Revolution), and a younger generation takes over, this kind of shift is going to become more and more noticeable.

There are, in fact, many "Chinese Communist Government Officials" who are quite committed to a process of greater liberalization and democratization within China. Not all at once...but certainly as an long-term goal. And its not fair to lump them all together as "evil Communists".

One of the reasons that General Liu can get away with saying what he says is that while he calls for reform and change within the existing system, he does not call for overthrow of the existing government. What he argues for, quite consistently, is a gradual evolution, within the existing system, towards a system that is fully democratic.

And in China, even the state-owned media makes critical comments about gov't policies quite often. In fact, public complaints about gov't abuses, and articles exposing gov't corruption, are quite commonplace today. But, again, they're all done within the context of "the existing gov't needs to change/improve", as opposed to "we need to get rid of this gov't".

In regards to General Liu's comments...I actually disagree. I do believe that a long-term goal of bringing democracy to China is of extreme importance. But I also believe that A) full democracy at this point in time would destroy China, and result in far greater suffering and privation for Chinese people than is currently the case, and B) an American-style democracy would be disastrous at any time.

I think that one of the best models for democracy in China -- at least within the next 50 years -- would be that of Singapore. And, in fact, Singapore's system is being closely studied by the Chinese gov't, and long-term plans for changing China's political system tend to be based on a model similar to that of Singapore.
 
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ery-yr-in-Maharashtra/articleshow/5533117.cms


Of the estimated 45,000 children dying each year due to malnutrition in Maharashtra, only around 12,000 are severe malnutrition cases. The remaining 33,000 children succumb due to mild or moderate malnutrition. Also, malnutrition is the underlying cause in about 480 of the 2,850 maternal deaths each year in the state.

A huge decrease from the mass famines that plagued the country before 1947.
 
In terms of the economy etc I think the Chinese are happy to be ultra-liberal. I don't think they particularly care too much about people having more freedoms either. However, there are too many Party officials in postions of power and influence making too much money and having too good a life to relinquish their own little fiefdoms.

In the sense that a US style democracy would still allow backhanders, bribes and slush funds to flow into the hands of the right people I don't think they would mind too much implementing that.

Name a democracy where that kind of stuff does not happen.
 
A huge decrease from the mass famines that plagued the country before 1947.

hello virus,

I think your shifting the goal posts. Your initial statement "famines do not happen in democracies" is demonstrably false. You've progressed to "it wasn't a big famine!"

Famines have decreased due to a myriad of factors, advancements in argicultural being arguably the most important.


I agree with the overall theme that liberal democracies tend not to fight each other and are better for the world.
 
hello virus,

I think your shifting the goal posts. Your initial statement "famines do not happen in democracies" is demonstrably false. You've progressed to "it wasn't a big famine!"

Famines have decreased due to a myriad of factors, advancements in argicultural being arguably the most important.


I agree with the overall theme that liberal democracies tend not to fight each other and are better for the world.

OK. It's not zero but it's almost zero in comparison to dictatorships. Especially the communist ones.
 
OK. China should listen to this general and embrace democracy because it's the best system.
 
A Chinese democracy may not be that fun for the international system. There seems to be a lot of pretty militant nationalism in China.

That could be controlled in a democratic system, especially if the system led to more equality among the Chinese. No one is advocating an immediate change to the system anyway, but a progressive transition to a system that is more in line with the current times. I suspect much of the militant nationalism is a result of the Parties' efforts to stay in power, seeing as militant nationalism is, ironically, often present in other former communist states.

Fitzgibbon pointed out the war of 1812. Canada had elections back then, so did the US. The US gov't also turned a blind eye to the Fenian raids on Canada in the 1860s. More recently, there was the war between Eritrea and Ethiopia (both countries hold elections at some level).

Elections do not equal democracy. Heck even North Korea has elections every couple of years, and it's not democratic (or even a republic) by any stretch of imagination anywhere except in it's name.

Elections are necessary for a democracy, but there are a huge number of other benchmarks that are just as necessary: rule of law and checks and balances are two. A country that has these two, but no elections (e.g. a hereditary monarchy of sorts) would be infinitely more democratic than a country that has elections but doesn't obey the rule of law and checks and balances.

McHrozni
 
That could be controlled in a democratic system, especially if the system led to more equality among the Chinese. No one is advocating an immediate change to the system anyway, but a progressive transition to a system that is more in line with the current times. I suspect much of the militant nationalism is a result of the Parties' efforts to stay in power, seeing as militant nationalism is, ironically, often present in other former communist states.
Just want to point out that not only is this the long-term plan for the Chinese gov't (gradual transition to a more democratic gov't), but they've been doing it for some time right now. In fact, despite the fact that China certainly hasn't reached the same level of freedom that we enjoy in western democratic nations, the Chinese people today enjoy more freedom than they have at any other point in their 5000 years of history.

Regarding "militant nationalism", I'm not quite sure where you're getting that from. The Chinese do tend to be rather nationalistic, but are hardly militant (ie. with the exception of situations that it sees as direct threats to its own national security, like an independent Taiwan that can provide American military bases). In fact, China uses the threat of war/violence in dealing with other nations far less than the U.S. does. And the vast majority of Chinese are quite opposed to military action.

Where nationalism does come into play is when they get the perception that other nations (I'll leave you to guess the main offender in this category) are trying to force them to make changes according to what that country wants. Even if they agree in principle, the fact that its a foreign power trying to force the change will automatically make them resistant, and fuel the fires of nationalism.

And the incredibly rapid pace of change and growth in China has also fueled nationalist pride...what country wouldn't feel that way when the rest of the planet sees them as the #1 rising power in the world?

So no...I wouldn't describe it as "militant nationalism"...and what nationalism there is, I wouldn't ascribe primarily to the simple factor of the "Party's efforts to stay in power". Its a factor, yes...but far from being the only or even the main factor.
 
Taiwan and Malaysia
And South Korea. They have some of the best fights.
Aren't these the guys who take such pride in their self-control and are supposed to never, ever lose their temper?

ETA: Also India.



Lots of these on YouTube. Grab your popcorn and have a look.

Here's an incident in the US, but then again, what's to expect from Alabama:p.

 
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Aren't these the guys who take such pride in their self-control and are supposed to never, ever lose their temper?

ETA: Also India.



Lots of these on YouTube. Grab your popcorn and have a look.
Oh, the more repressed the emotions are, the more entertaining their politics tend to be. What's particularly fun is that more and more women are getting involved in politics in those countries now...and they can be as aggressive or even more aggressive than their male counterparts. Saw one who took off a high heeled show and started bashing all the men around her with it.
 
Wow. It'll be interesting to see how this works out for him; I'd have thought statements like that would be very heavily frowned upon by the establishment. Scope for a coup if they try to remove him, perhaps?

It could work out -- he probably has his own "internal security" that can keep tabs on Beijing's. The modern Russian revolution hinged at least partly on a Russian paratrooper general refusing to send in his troops.
 
Regarding "militant nationalism", I'm not quite sure where you're getting that from. The Chinese do tend to be rather nationalistic, but are hardly militant (ie. with the exception of situations that it sees as direct threats to its own national security, like an independent Taiwan that can provide American military bases). In fact, China uses the threat of war/violence in dealing with other nations far less than the U.S. does. And the vast majority of Chinese are quite opposed to military action...

So no...I wouldn't describe it as "militant nationalism"...and what nationalism there is, I wouldn't ascribe primarily to the simple factor of the "Party's efforts to stay in power". Its a factor, yes...but far from being the only or even the main factor.

Hm, interesting. I guess you get a different perspective reading the political analysts watching China than you do if you actually live there. Being stuck in Canada, I'm mostly reliant on the first, which is why I enjoy your posts.

Regarding the analysts:

Here's one take:
http://www.cfr.org/publication/16079/nationalism_in_china.html

Here's another:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-china/nationalism_3456.jsp

Both reference the interplay between the government's efforts to maintain legitimacy in the face of increasingly assertive nationalist sentiment at home. The extension is that it's hard to say whether a democratic China would be more or less assertive internationally than the current administration (by which I mean the CPC), which often seems like it's trying very hard to maintain regional stability (albeit still eager to extend influence after a sort).
 
Actually, I agree with much of what those articles are saying. Consider these factors:

1) China was, for much of its history, a dominant world power.

2) China was subsequently humiliated by western powers, with tremendous abuses heaped on it.

3) After achieving 'independence' from the rest of the world, under the Communists, China went into a 40-year hibernation period, marked by little advancement, and isolation from the rest of the world.

4) It emerged from that into a period of rapid growth that has seen it restored in many ways to the 'glories' of the past...a dominant world power, economically, militarily, etc.

Its not surprising that modern Chinese tend to have strong nationalist tendencies. I suspect the same thing would occur in any country facing similar circumstances. So its not so much an issue of the gov't creating nationalist sentiment, as it is of the gov't capitalizing on that pre-existing sentiment to help them maintain their hold on power.

Perhaps we have a different interpretation of what is meant by "militant nationalism". To me, that goes beyond nationalist sentiment, to a desire to push those sentiments on other nations, and/or bring other nations under their scope of control. It means a determination to maintain (or spread) such sentiment by force of arms.

And that's just not something that I see in China; nor do I see the authors of those articles making such a claim.

The Chinese gov't definitely uses nationalist sentiment to help maintain its position. There's no better way to defuse internal dissatisfaction than to create an external 'enemy' that the people can unite against.

Allow me to point out, however, that the Republicans in the U.S. tend to use the very same tactic. Anything related to Christian ideals is automatically tied to "what America is about" or "America's roots". In fact, it is shocking to me how often the tactics of the American right-wing are so terribly similar to those used in China...yet few people seem to comment on it. One of the worst examples of this was under Bush, when they started a national campaign to actively recruit normal citizens to spy on each other, and report 'suspicious behavior' to the authorities. This is something that even the Chinese abandoned some 20 years ago. And it was fueled by capitalizing on 'nationalist sentiment'.

However, outside of a very vocal minority (and, like most extremists, they can be very vocal), the vast majority of Chinese very highly prize peace, and in particular, want to see their country become dominant by integrating with the rest of the world, not by conquering it, or making everyone like them. It is interesting to me that American international policy tends to be dominated by a sentiment that "we should make everyone like us", whereas China's international policy tends to be more "you do what is best for you, and we'll do what is best for us". This is one of the main reasons why China is so much more successful in building relations with third-world countries...because they don't impose a political agenda on their interactions. Their focus is pretty much entirely financial.

To me, "militant nationalism" is something like what the Japanese had during WW II...a nationalism that convinces the people that their nation is so superior, that it is their right or their destiny to expand their system to other nations. It is dangerous because it is not focused just internally, but also externally.

Chinese nationalism is mostly internal. There's phenomenal pride in what they've accomplished. There's very strong resistance to any perceived efforts by outsiders to control or change them. There's certainly a very cohesive sense of "being Chinese", that unifies them (and therefore can be used by the gov't).

My concern is where outsiders attempt to present this as a 'threat' to the rest of the world. And its where my own analysis branches off from that of many others. Again, look at American economic, political, and military policy, and how often it is used actively to 'export' American values and systems to other nations. Then look at China. The difference in this regard is huge. The Chinese definitely want people to learn about and understand their culture...but there's no expectation that other countries should become like them, or adopt their values.
 
Perhaps we have a different interpretation of what is meant by "militant nationalism". To me, that goes beyond nationalist sentiment, to a desire to push those sentiments on other nations, and/or bring other nations under their scope of control. It means a determination to maintain (or spread) such sentiment by force of arms.

Perhaps. I was thinking about stuff like that girl who wrote something about Tibet on her knapsack and then got hounded by the Chinese internet, for example, when I was thinking about 'militant nationalism' i.e. nationalism that doesn't really broker dissent.

In regards to a hypothetical Chinese democracy perhaps being more assertive internationally than the current Chinese government, here is another author from whom I've gotten this idea:

Fei-Ling Wang. "Preservation, Prosperity and Power: What Motivates China’s Foreign Policy?" Journal of Contemporary China. Vol. 14, No. 45 (2005), pp. 669–694.

"External respect itself has become a leading source of the CCP’s political legitimacy, hence Beijing cultivates with much hard work its peaceful and cooperative posture in international relations. But China’s conservative
foreign policy for political preservation and its drive for economic prosperity have combined to generate fuel for a rising sense of Chinese nationalism. On the one hand, rapid economic growth and technological advances have powered nationalistic sentiments and demands; on the other hand, Beijing’s preservation-oriented conservative foreign policy has frustrated many Chinese nationalists. The desire to seek more power, defined as influence and prestige, in international relations is steadily growing inside China as an increasingly strong factor to be reckoned with. Although the official line in Beijing remains the mild and benign ‘peaceful development’, after a fling with the new and more majestic idea of ‘peaceful rise’, the rise of nationalist emotions and demands in the PRC is here to stay."


(I believe Fei-Ling Wang is Taiwanese originally)

This is one of the main reasons why China is so much more successful in building relations with third-world countries...because they don't impose a political agenda on their interactions. Their focus is pretty much entirely financial.


I agree with you that China has had some strong successes in expanding its diplomatic and economic reach through its generally strong position on state sovereignty, but I have read that this has backfired on them somewhat.


My concern is where outsiders attempt to present this as a 'threat' to the rest of the world. And its where my own analysis branches off from that of many others. Again, look at American economic, political, and military policy, and how often it is used actively to 'export' American values and systems to other nations. Then look at China. The difference in this regard is huge. The Chinese definitely want people to learn about and understand their culture...but there's no expectation that other countries should become like them, or adopt their values.

What do you think of Ramos' "Beijing Consensus" idea?
 

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