China

[Ziggurat]

China created more prosperity, and faster, than the US ever did

Yes. Because they stopped trying to do complete communist control of the economy. They were so far below their potential, a rapid expansion was easy. Low hanging fruit. The US has never been far below its potential, so of course it could never grow as fast.

proving the claim that laissez-faire capitalism is the only true way to run an economy ( it never was).

Who exactly is arguing in favor of laissez-faire capitalism?

But China's rapid expansion absolutely was due to relaxing government control. And I'll also note that China is still well below Taiwan in per capita GDP. So yeah, capitalism is absolutely the winner.

Gloating that China isn't growing as fast as it used to is like laughing at a runner slowing down after he beat you in a race.

The race isn't over. And China hasn't beat us. Rate of growth has never been the metric that actually mattered. Actual GDP is. And China has never caught up with the US, and never will.

 

[Roboramma]

Yep.

There's a reason that economics differentiates between catch-up growth and cutting-edge growth.

And China's not the only nation to have undergone a period of extremely rapid catch-up growth. Japan and South Korea both spring to mind.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The US has lost in its Post-Soviet program to be the undisputed political, economic and moral superpower in the world; it's still a military superpower, but already there are places it can't go.

GDP is, of course, a meaningless metric is you ignore purchasing power - one look at the Trade Deficit (and the supply crisis due to Covid) shows you that China can cope much better without the US than vice versa.

Post-Soviet, the US prescribed panacea for everyone was hyper-capitalism and small government, spread by Consultants and enforced by the World Bank and IMF. Forcing countries to privatize their nationally own companies has let to economic collapse, and from that collapse we got people like Putin.
Meanwhile, the country that went the other way and kept complete State control has now North Korea and Russia as its Client States, and is responsible for most of the goods being shipped.

China hasn't "won", because this is a process, not a game, but it clearly showed the right-wing rhetoric of the "invisible hand" and "government needs to be so small that you can drown it in a bathtub" to be a con on the world by people who enriched themselves at the expense of their own countrymen and other countries.

Unlike the US, China has a functioning government that will adapt to the change in demographics and geopolitics. It can built infrastructure projects of massive scales on time and budget, while the US can't get a bridge fixed.

What does the US have except for an out-of-control military budget ?

 

[Lplus]

The US has lost in its Post-Soviet program to be the undisputed political, economic and moral superpower in the world; it's still a military superpower, but already there are places it can't go.

GDP is, of course, a meaningless metric is you ignore purchasing power - one look at the Trade Deficit (and the supply crisis due to Covid) shows you that China can cope much better without the US than vice versa.

Post-Soviet, the US prescribed panacea for everyone was hyper-capitalism and small government, spread by Consultants and enforced by the World Bank and IMF. Forcing countries to privatize their nationally own companies has let to economic collapse, and from that collapse we got people like Putin.
Meanwhile, the country that went the other way and kept complete State control has now North Korea and Russia as its Client States, and is responsible for most of the goods being shipped.

China hasn't "won", because this is a process, not a game, but it clearly showed the right-wing rhetoric of the "invisible hand" and "government needs to be so small that you can drown it in a bathtub" to be a con on the world by people who enriched themselves at the expense of their own countrymen and other countries.

Unlike the US, China has a functioning government that will adapt to the change in demographics and geopolitics. It can built infrastructure projects of massive scales on time and budget, while the US can't get a bridge fixed.

What does the US have except for an out-of-control military budget ?

An allure for most of those desperate to leave the sink holes of Central/South America and parts of Africa.

Can't say that about China...

 

[The Great Zaganza]

An allure for most of those desperate to leave the sink holes of Central/South America and parts of Africa.

Can't say that about China...

you are wrong, of course.
China has massive immigration; and, of course, there is a big market to important brides-to-be for Chinese men from the neighbouring Asian countries.

 

[Lplus]

you are wrong, of course.
China has massive immigration;

from wikipedia

Immigration has increased modestly since the opening up of the country and the liberalization of the economy, mostly of people moving to the large cities and to Hong Kong. Many of the foreign nationals who immigrate to China are of Chinese ethnic heritage.

According to 2020 Chinese census, China has 1,430,695 immigrants, dividing between 845,697 foreign nationals and 584,998 residents of Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan.[1] As of 2023, there are around 12,000 foreigners with permanent residency in China.

Not exactly massive compared to the US, which had 1.5 million immigrants in 2021 alone - so no I was right

and, of course, there is a big market to important brides-to-be for Chinese men from the neighbouring Asian countries.

And you think this is something to be proud of?

smh

 

[theprestige]

"... and Taiwan."

Pretty sure that's not to the PRC's credit.

 

[Lplus]

your argument against why the US is the Best is, literally, that it isn't the worst, or there would be no immigration.

for??
You were comparing it with China so my comparison was with China and nowhere else.

 

[dudalb]

I see to some here that China is a ruthless dictatorship seems not to matter.
Some on the left will always see China through Mickey Mao blinders.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I see to some here that China is a ruthless dictatorship seems not to matter.
Some on the left will always see China through Mickey Mao blinders.

That's not the issue I'm talking about.

The question is, as is Widespread US doctrine, that with minimal government involvement is the most effective method to be create prosperity.
And this belief is held against the overwhelming evidence of countries like China or Singapore, who are doing much better than the US on a wide spectrum of parameters, but are tightly State controlled.

Also, it's curious that people think the US, with the highest incarceration rate in the world plus state sanctioned slave labor by prisoners isn't ruthless.

 

[Stylesjl]

That's not the issue I'm talking about.

The question is, as is Widespread US doctrine, that with minimal government involvement is the most effective method to be create prosperity.
And this belief is held against the overwhelming evidence of countries like China or Singapore, who are doing much better than the US on a wide spectrum of parameters, but are tightly State controlled.

Also, it's curious that people think the US, with the highest incarceration rate in the world plus state sanctioned slave labor by prisoners isn't ruthless.

Since when was the US based on minimal government? Right wingers can talk all they want about drowning the government in a bathtub - yet the simple fact remains that the US Public GDP has been around 30% to 35% for well over 50 years (with a spike above that number during the Covid Pandemic).
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-spending-to-gdp

Don't mistake rhetoric for reality. It may surprise you to learn that the #1 incarcerator in the world (per capita) is El Salvador (from the 'World's Coolest Dictator'), not the US. Likewise Cuba, Rwanda and Turkmenistan also surpass the USA:
https://www.statista.com/statistics...ry 2024, El,the highest rate of incarceration.

I love a good America bashing as much as the next guy but it is important to get your facts straight when doing so.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Since when was the US based on minimal government? Right wingers can talk all they want about drowning the government in a bathtub - yet the simple fact remains that the US Public GDP has been around 30% to 35% for well over 50 years (with a spike above that number during the Covid Pandemic).
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-spending-to-gdp

Don't mistake rhetoric for reality. It may surprise you to learn that the #1 incarcerator in the world (per capita) is El Salvador (from the 'World's Coolest Dictator'), not the US. Likewise Cuba, Rwanda and Turkmenistan also surpass the USA:
https://www.statista.com/statistics...ry 2024, El,the highest rate of incarceration.

I love a good America bashing as much as the next guy but it is important to get your facts straight when doing so.

you are making my point.
Republican rhetoric, and from their Think Tanks and propaganda outlets like PragerU has a strict "do as I say, don't do as I do" principle when it comes to Small Government.

Also, showing that the US is not quite as bad as El Salvador, Rwanda and Turkmenistan is not as much an argument as you think it is.
the comparison was with China, which isn't even on the list you cite.

 

[Ziggurat]

GDP is, of course, a meaningless metric is you ignore purchasing power - one look at the Trade Deficit (and the supply crisis due to Covid) shows you that China can cope much better without the US than vice versa.

Bwahahahahahaha!

No.

It's far easier to find new suppliers of your goods than it is to find new customers, because it's easier to raise the price you offer to buy at than to lower the price you sell at.

Post-Soviet, the US prescribed panacea for everyone was hyper-capitalism and small government, spread by Consultants and enforced by the World Bank and IMF. Forcing countries to privatize their nationally own companies has let to economic collapse, and from that collapse we got people like Putin.
Meanwhile, the country that went the other way and kept complete State control has now North Korea and Russia as its Client States, and is responsible for most of the goods being shipped.

China's economic boom happened precisely because they relaxed state control, not because they kept it. Now that they're re-asserting control, their economic growth is slowing. And I'm not sure why you're bragging that basket cases like Russia and North Korea are client states of China.

China hasn't "won", because this is a process, not a game, but it clearly showed the right-wing rhetoric of the "invisible hand" and "government needs to be so small that you can drown it in a bathtub" to be a con on the world by people who enriched themselves at the expense of their own countrymen and other countries.

You haven't been paying attention to China's Belt and Road initiative, have you?

Unlike the US, China has a functioning government that will adapt to the change in demographics and geopolitics.

Bwahahahahahaha!

China created their looming demographic collapse. I'm not sure what you think qualifies as adapting to it, but they can't stop it, and it will have catastrophic consequences. And their policies for decades now haven't adapted to it. For example, their real estate boom provided huge short term stimulus, but they've already massively overbuilt. They already have too much housing capacity, and with a falling population, that excess is going to waste. Which is going to further collapse the real estate market that they've built their Ponzi scheme economy on, and it will destroy local government budgets.

China's government has no idea how to adapt. How could it? The centralization of political power makes it structurally incapable of doing anything of the sort.

It can built infrastructure projects of massive scales on time and budget, while the US can't get a bridge fixed.

Someone's never heard of tofu dregs.

What does the US have except for an out-of-control military budget ?

We're far from perfect, sure. We're way ahead of China, though. Lots of countries are, we aren't special in that respect.

 

[Ziggurat]

you are making my point.
Republican rhetoric, and from their Think Tanks and propaganda outlets like PragerU has a strict "do as I say, don't do as I do" principle when it comes to Small Government.

This thread isn't about your complaints about small government conservatism. It's about China. And in a thread about China, your posts are coming off as simping towards the CCP. And badly done simping too, since you obviously don't have a clear understanding of what the situation in China is actually like.

 

[zooterkin]

Several off topic posts shuffled off to AAH.

Please keep to the topic, me old Chinas.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin

 

[a_unique_person]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03...ith-water-cannon-in-south-china-sea/103624718

China's attacks on Philippine ships increase in severity. The water cannon they are using are dangerous and deadly.

In short:*China has hit a Philippine boat in the South China Sea with water cannons.

Filipino authorities say the move caused significant damage to the boat and to some crew on board.

China says the Philippines had provoked trouble in the disputed sea.

The Chinese coastguard has hit a Philippine supply boat with water cannons in the South China Sea for the second time this month.

China's coastguard said it had taken measures against Philippine vessels in the disputed waters on Saturday — while the Philippines decried the moves, including the use of water cannons, as "irresponsible and provocative".

 

[a_unique_person]

I'm surprised there hasn't been more interest in this. It's as close to a shooting war as you can get. Those industrial water cannon are deadly.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I'm surprised there hasn't been more interest in this. It's as close to a shooting war as you can get. Those industrial water cannon are deadly.

My guess is it’s a Somebody Else’s Problem.

An SEP is something we can't see, or don't see, or our brain doesn't let us see, because we think that it's somebody else's problem. That’s what SEP means. Somebody Else’s Problem. The brain just edits it out, it's like a blind spot.
The narration then explains:

The Somebody Else's Problem field... relies on people's natural predisposition not to see anything they don't want to, weren't expecting, or can't explain. If Effrafax had painted the mountain pink and erected a cheap and simple Somebody Else’s Problem field on it, then people would have walked past the mountain, round it, even over it, and simply never have noticed that the thing was there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somebody_else's_problem

 

[The Atheist]

I'm surprised there hasn't been more interest in this. It's as close to a shooting war as you can get. Those industrial water cannon are deadly.

Doesn't involve any white people.

 

[Lplus]

I'm surprised there hasn't been more interest in this. It's as close to a shooting war as you can get. Those industrial water cannon are deadly.

Interest where? on the forum? In the news around the west pacific?, in the news worldwide? In europe?