Challenge Questions

[oddball]

Requesting clarification of the following:

(1) Will the challenge end when someone wins the $1m prize, or will it continue, with another prize?

(2) Is it okay to post here an initial draft of a challenge proposal, prior to submitting an application, and solicit advice on protocols and so on?

(3) If one has two abilities to demonstrate in hopes of winning the prize, is it okay to send both proposals with the application and allow JREF to choose whether one or both abilities will be tested at a demonstration, and if both abilities are demonstrated, is it possible to win the prize if only one of the two abilities is adequately proven?

(4) Regarding Rule #7, since I am not a lawyer and do not understand the wording in a legal sense, what does "as far as this may be done by established statutes" actually mean? If in fact "...the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action [emphasis mine]" and this “applies to ... damage of any [emphasis not mine] kind", in what kind of circumstances might agreeing to such a broad waiver be a mistake for a challenger?

(5) I'd appreciate hearing what exactly is to be done with the Challenge page on the JREF website, in terms of applying? At least half of it appears not to be part of an application but rather instructions on how to apply. Does the entire web page need to be printed, or is it fine to start from "I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000...."? Does the italicized paragraph following "(signature of applicant)" need to be printed as well?

(6) Is the description of what will constitute the demonstration to appear on a separate page along with the statement of what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result? If not, where should these items appear?

(7) Last but not least, I'd like to know, for the record, whether JREF considers it a foregone conclusion that no one will ever win the big prize, or is there a genuine (and perhaps hidden) desire for someone to prove that there's more to this experience we call Life than can be seen without "magic spectacles"?

Thank you in advance.

 

[webfusion]

Your questions more accurately belong to the realm of the Challenge Administrator ----- however, since they seem to be easily dealt with here by the forum members, from our common knowledge,
I'll take first crack:

1. Ends.
$one-million is all the JREF has in the "bank vault" ---
http://www.randi.org/images/photos/bankvault.jpg

2. Yes. Great idea. Highly recommended.

3. No. Focus on one. Avoid abiguity and the refrain from the need to 'judge' a success.

4. You are entering into a contract. The law defines to what extent contracts may be enforced. JREF cannot avoid, and you cannot avoid, the given terms of this contract, in terms of statutory (tort) law.
(Caveat: I am not a lawyer, but this seems to be what is meant as I understand it, as a layman).

5. Print it out. http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
The entire page itself, from top to bottom, is the "Application"

6. Applicant will declare agreement by signing this form where indicated on the reverse before a notary public, and returning the form to the James Randi Educational Foundation. --- This would indicate, to me, that the front of the page is the boilerplate text of the Agreement, and on the reverse is your brief description, followed by your Notarized signature and date.

7.

Last but not least, I'd like to know, for the record, whether JREF considers it a foregone conclusion that no one will ever win the big prize.

That would require James Randi to make a prediction. For the record.
However, since he is not claiming to be a psychic, I cannot imagine him making such a prediction.

The prize is available, it is real, the Challenge exists.
Apply, or go away.

 

[SkepticScott]

Hi oddball,
I don't speak for JREF, only for myself
>(1) Will the challenge end when someone wins the $1m prize, or will it continue, with another prize?
I don't know.

>(2) Is it okay to post here an initial draft of a challenge proposal, prior to submitting an application, and solicit advice on protocols and so on?
Yes, many people here will help you refine it, try to anticipate problems, and point out possible flaws.

>(3) If one has two abilities to demonstrate in hopes of winning the prize, is it okay to send both proposals with the application and allow JREF to choose whether one or both abilities will be tested at a demonstration, and if both abilities are demonstrated, is it possible to win the prize if only one of the two abilities is adequately proven?
I think you may want to pick one ability and focus on that. Trying to test two abilities just makes the test more complicated.

>(4) Regarding Rule #7, since I am not a lawyer and do not understand the wording in a legal sense, what does "as far as this may be done by established statutes" actually mean? If in fact "...the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action [emphasis mine]" and this “applies to ... damage of any [emphasis not mine] kind", in what kind of circumstances might agreeing to such a broad waiver be a mistake for a challenger?
I think it means that you can't sue JREF for embarassment if you fail, or if you hurt yourself while travelling to the challenge. I think you can still sue if Randi deliberately hits you, or JREF doesn't hand over the $1M after you win.

>(5) I'd appreciate hearing what exactly is to be done with the Challenge page on the JREF website, in terms of applying? At least half of it appears not to be part of an application but rather instructions on how to apply. Does the entire web page need to be printed, or is it fine to start from "I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000...."? Does the italicized paragraph following "(signature of applicant)" need to be printed as well?
I think from "I, James Randi" to "(signature of appicant)" is all that's really neede, but I'd print it all. If you email challenge@randi.org and ask you'll get an answer.

>(6) Is the description of what will constitute the demonstration to appear on a separate page along with the statement of what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result? If not, where should these items appear?
I think they can go on a separate page. Don't get too detailed at this stage, as there may be a lot of questions and refinement. If you claim to be able to make floating balls of light appear indoors, it would be better to say just that, rather than specify "at 12:01:15 on 23 October 2006, at 123 Main St., Anytown, XX".


>(7) Last but not least, I'd like to know, for the record, whether JREF considers it a foregone conclusion that no one will ever win the big prize, or is there a genuine (and perhaps hidden) desire for someone to prove that there's more to this experience we call Life than can be seen without "magic spectacles"?
I've heard Randi say that he'd gladly pay $1M to uncover something special; however, he doesn't expect that to happen.

Your best bet might be to post what you claim you can do here, and ask for suggestions. Keep it brief; we don't want to read a 12-page paper with theories behind why you think you can make floating balls of light appear indoors. After you prove you can do it, then people will try to figure out why and how.

Good luck!

 

[oddball]

Thank you for attempting to answer my questions. Part of your reply raises one additional question:

Apply, or go away.

Is it actually required that in order to continue posting on this forum, one must apply for the challenge?

 

[oddball]

>Is it okay to post here an initial draft of a challenge proposal, prior to submitting an application, and solicit advice on protocols and so on?
Yes, many people here will help you refine it, try to anticipate problems, and point out possible flaws.

OK I will do that (soon) in another thread. I'm very happy to hear that I can expect to receive some good input.

Trying to test two abilities just makes the test more complicated.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Perhaps you will read my proposal when I post it, and let me know if you think it sounds too complicated.

I think you can still sue if Randi deliberately hits you, or JREF doesn't hand over the $1M after you win.

This is good to know!

I think from "I, James Randi" to "(signature of appicant)" is all that's really neede, but I'd print it all. If you email challenge@randi.org and ask you'll get an answer.

I did, once, and I got a very rude reply (so rude in fact that I was put off of considering this challenge for almost five years) but perhaps it's time to try again. I could sure use the $1m....

I've heard Randi say that he'd gladly pay $1M to uncover something special; however, he doesn't expect that to happen.

I'm very glad to hear this!

After you prove you can do it, then people will try to figure out why and how.

They won't have to, because I'll be more than glad to explain it to all who care to listen.

Good luck!

Thank you very much.

 

[jimtron]

Thank you for attempting to answer my questions. Part of your reply raises one additional question:



Is it actually required that in order to continue posting on this forum, one must apply for the challenge?

No, but I think there are some members of the forum who have spent a lot of time answering a lot of questions about the challenge, to people who never apply. You're welcome here whether you apply or not. I would suggest carefully reading the rules, and feel free to ask questions. And please do apply.

eta: It would probaby be beneficial to you to read previous discussions on this (Challenge) forum--a lot of the same issues are brought up again and again.

 

[webfusion]

Thank you for attempting to answer my questions. Part of your reply raises one additional question: Apply or go away

Is it actually required that in order to continue posting on this forum, one must apply for the challenge?

What do you think?

People such as yourself will perpetuate a thread such as this for weeks on end, with post after post of questions and remarks, leading nowhere.

(See: Pater)

jimtron gives you good advice, and I concur.
Don't waste our time, and we won't waste yours.

The phrase "Apply or go away" is Randi's. He uses it when a potential applicant starts asking too many idiotic questions and appears to be asking just for the sake of an argument.

Don't go there...

 

[webfusion]

I could sure use the $1m....

Play the lottery. Your chances are better.

 

[timokay]

I did, once, and I got a very rude reply (so rude in fact that I was put off of considering this challenge for almost five years) but perhaps it's time to try again. I could sure use the $1m....

If you are going to be sensitive to people who will challenge your claim, then you are going to have a hard time. Speaking for myself, I have little patience for people who cannot be clear and direct about what they can do. So please try to stay on topic, and be very clear with the people on the forum. I will make every effort to be open minded if your claim is simple and direct.

 

[oddball]

eta: It would probaby be beneficial to you to read previous discussions on this (Challenge) forum--a lot of the same issues are brought up again and again.

Thank you for your advice. I have been reading the forum and will continue doing so. I've found it to be a very helpful resource.

 

[oddball]

If you are going to be sensitive to people who will challenge your claim, then you are going to have a hard time. Speaking for myself, I have little patience for people who cannot be clear and direct about what they can do. So please try to stay on topic, and be very clear with the people on the forum. I will make every effort to be open minded if your claim is simple and direct.

Thank you very much for your comments. I am quite sensitive, but usually can shrug off baseless nastiness and not take it personally. And thank you for the reminder about staying on topic.

 

[oddball]

What do you think?

Well, I did think you were being rude, or as I wrote to timokay, "baselessly nasty".

People such as yourself will perpetuate a thread such as this for weeks on end, with post after post of questions and remarks, leading nowhere.

The phrase "Apply or go away" is Randi's. He uses it when a potential applicant starts asking too many idiotic questions and appears to be asking just for the sake of an argument.

Don't go there...

I won't. I read a lot of the Pater thread (had to remove the link you provided because I'm too new here to quote one). It was not and is not my intention to ask "idiotic" questions (and it looks as if you're subtly implying that you think I have, or that I will).

I merely wanted information that I hadn't found through reading pre-existing posts.

I very seldom find rudeness endearing or amusing, even when it may be seen as somehow being justifiable. There are more civil means of getting a point across.

 

[steenkh]

Play the lottery. Your chances are better.

If somebody actually has a paranormal ability, and can demonstrate it again and again, there is every chance that he will take the million. And he should only apply when he is certain that he can do this.

Like you, I do not believe that there is anybody who has paranormal abilities, but I think it is not correct to try scare them away. After all, what purpose has the challenge if people are told that they have a better chance of winning the lottery than taking the JREF challenge, when they believe they can demonstrate paranormal abilities?

The JREF is not a lottery, and there is no attempt at preventing people from getting the money if they can do what they claim.

The message should be that claimants should be absolutely certain that they can do what they claim, even though they will be subject to controls that will ensure that their ability will not be the result of random chance. In fact, there is only 1 to a million chance that a claimant can take the final test through random chance alone (which is better than most lotteries, BTW!).

On the other hand if one is certain that one has the ability, it is a foregone conclusion that one will get the million: If the challenge would accept bending a spoon with my hands, I am confident that I could do this again and again, and I would not care that the JREF would demand that I can do this with a certainty of one to a million that I do not do it by chance!

 

[oddball]

If somebody actually has a paranormal ability, and can demonstrate it again and again, there is every chance that he will take the million. And he should only apply when he is certain that he can do this.

Like you, I do not believe that there is anybody who has paranormal abilities, but I think it is not correct to try scare them away. After all, what purpose has the challenge if people are told that they have a better chance of winning the lottery than taking the JREF challenge, when they believe they can demonstrate paranormal abilities?

The JREF is not a lottery, and there is no attempt at preventing people from getting the money if they can do what they claim.

The message should be that claimants should be absolutely certain that they can do what they claim, even though they will be subject to controls that will ensure that their ability will not be the result of random chance. In fact, there is only 1 to a million chance that a claimant can take the final test through random chance alone (which is better than most lotteries, BTW!).

On the other hand if one is certain that one has the ability, it is a foregone conclusion that one will get the million: If the challenge would accept bending a spoon with my hands, I am confident that I could do this again and again, and I would not care that the JREF would demand that I can do this with a certainty of one to a million that I do not do it by chance!

Well said, steenkh!

I've never played a lottery and never will. Not because I'm averse to taking risks but because I don't believe in throwing money away in the process, and I'm aware of the odds involved.

As to my proposed Claims (see my other thread entitled "Formulating Challenge Proposal" which I can't link to until I'm less of a newcomer to this forum), at least A and B will be given a few "dry runs" before I decide to go through with an application for the prize, just to be sure my abilities haven't become too rusty to still work. I do routinely detect cancer cases in crowds but haven't ever had the gall to walk up to any of them and ask "Hey, I was just wondering whether or not you know that you have cancer?" Maybe I will think of better way to verify this one. Got any ideas on how to do that???

 

[Cuddles]

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Perhaps you will read my proposal when I post it, and let me know if you think it sounds too complicated.

I don't speak for the JREF, but I believe on every occasion that someone has claimed more than one thing they have been told that they will only be tested on one at a time.

 

[nathan]

I don't speak for the JREF, but I believe on every occasion that someone has claimed more than one thing they have been told that they will only be tested on one at a time.

Yup. Oddball, if you claim more than one thing, the JREF will ask you to pick one of them for test protocol negotiations. If you're confident you can do all of those things, any one of which would get you the money, why not just pick the one that is easiest to test? Really, what is the point of claiming more than one thing?

If you're unsure which is the easiest to test, then you might want to put all on your application and say 'I'm not sure which of these is the easiest to go forward with, what do you (the JREF) suggest?'

The consensus here seems to be that Claim A is the one to proceed with.

 

[Rasmus]

Hi,

I will try to not repeat too much of what has been said already ...

Requesting clarification of the following:

(1) Will the challenge end when someone wins the $1m prize, or will it continue, with another prize?

Your guess is as good as mine. If you - or anyonme else, for that matter - won the challenge, then there would be no point in proving that the paranormal exists anymore. (Until such a time that a rational explanantion can be found that explains how what has been done wasn't paranormal at all, at least. Don't worry: You get to keep them onley if that should ever happen.)

(2) Is it okay to post here an initial draft of a challenge proposal, prior to submitting an application, and solicit advice on protocols and so on?

By all means, please do! But keep in mind that anything happening here won't be official, and you will have to negotiate the protocol with the JREF. So again, don't waste too much time before sending that application - you should notice an increased amount of help and support afterwards. (By applying in an acceptable way, you demonstrate that you are serious about this, after all. Makes it easier to donate time and effort to your cause.)

(3) If one has two abilities to demonstrate in hopes of winning the prize, is it okay to send both proposals with the application and allow JREF to choose whether one or both abilities will be tested at a demonstration, and if both abilities are demonstrated, is it possible to win the prize if only one of the two abilities is adequately proven?

You will most likely be told to stick to just one claim. So no sneakily doubling your chances. Setting up a challenge is no trivial task, and it will always be attempted to keeps things as simple as possible.

Pick your best bet, and apply with that. You don't need to be able to perform 100%. If you can't do something with absolute 100% accuracy, don't claim that you can! (If you can predict coinflips, say, it would probably be sufficient if you claimed 80% success rate. Of course, testing will be simpler and quicker if you have a higher claim to make - but even if you have a special ability, you should be careful if you also want to claim that you are unfailable...)

(6) Is the description of what will constitute the demonstration to appear on a separate page along with the statement of what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result? If not, where should these items appear?

I don't really know. Just writing in coherent sentences will be a good start, though and truly put you ahead of the crowd.

(7) Last but not least, I'd like to know, for the record, whether JREF considers it a foregone conclusion that no one will ever win the big prize, or is there a genuine (and perhaps hidden) desire for someone to prove that there's more to this experience we call Life than can be seen without "magic spectacles"?

In addition to what has been said, many a sceptic will tell you that they would be very excited to live in a world with magic, past lives, etc. We're just aware that wishful thinking doesn't make things so. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Cuddles]

Your guess is as good as mine. If you - or anyonme else, for that matter - won the challenge, then there would be no point in proving that the paranormal exists anymore. (Until such a time that a rational explanantion can be found that explains how what has been done wasn't paranormal at all, at least. Don't worry: You get to keep them onley if that should ever happen.)

I would hope the challenge would continue even if it was won. Just because one particular phenomenon is shown to be real does not mean they all are. If something does turn out to be real there will be even more need for something like the challenge to show up all the frauds that would come forwards to capitalise on it.

 

[oddball]

You will most likely be told to stick to just one claim. So no sneakily doubling your chances. Setting up a challenge is no trivial task, and it will always be attempted to keeps things as simple as possible.

Part of my reason for wanting to submit more than one claim in the application is to simplify. Both claims could be tested in one day, at one location; I could make just one trip to Florida instead of two; and JREF could be finished with me in one fell swoop.

I was going on the assumption that there's a million-dollar prize for each successfully proven claim, so why not go for it all in one day, and have it over with?

 

[oddball]

This reply is to what Nathan wrote. I tried using the "quote" button at the end of his post, and the next page came up with the Rasmus post in quotes

...why not just pick the one that is easiest to test? Really, what is the point of claiming more than one thing?

See my reply to Rasmus.

If you're unsure which is the easiest to test, then you might want to put all on your application and say 'I'm not sure which of these is the easiest to go forward with, what do you (the JREF) suggest?'

The consensus here seems to be that Claim A is the one to proceed with.

I'm not sure it would be so. "A" would require fewer volunteer subjects but might be harder to work out a protocol for. "B" is probably simpler in terms of working out the protocol but might be more difficult to gather enough of the kind of volunteers needed.

It would help me if I knew who would be expected to do the recruiting of subjects. If that would be me, and if the final testing has to be done in Florida, and I don't live anywhere near Florida, it presents quite a logistical problem.

I'm sure there's a plentiful pool of cancerous folk in south Florida, but if you were fighting to survive cancer, how interested would you be in taking part in a test like this one? I'm in no position to persuade anyone with an amount of money that might be persuasive in such a case, let alone persuade ten or more of them.

On the other hand, there's a good chance that at least a dozen of the 60 or more needed to test Claim B would be fitting subjects for Claim A, and testing both claims at the same day could take advantage of that factor.