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Challenge applications

I think it worth noting what the MDC FAQ says:-
2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge?
"Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.”
Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal."

So it is worth looking for routes that scientists can take to examine dowsing. It might be scientifically explicable some time even if not now. This is not cheating.
Paranormal does not mean that there has to be a "supernatural spiritual" component involved.
 
True, but you still shouldn't expect JREF to agree to a protocol which would allow your ordinary senses - smell, sound, sight - to be used to pass the test. You need to be doing something that can't be explained by current science, even if there's a possibility future science might find an explanation.

Of course if JREF agree to a protocol which doesn't successfully exclude the use of ordinary senses that would be their problem. That's what that clause says - once JREF agree to a test protocol they're classing any ability that allows someone to pass that test as paranormal and it would win the million, even if they later realised they hadn't fully excluded all currently scientifically explainable possibilities.
 
DowserDon said:
I think it worth noting what the MDC FAQ says:-
2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge?
"Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.”
Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal."

So it is worth looking for routes that scientists can take to examine dowsing. It might be scientifically explicable some time even if not now. This is not cheating.
Paranormal does not mean that there has to be a "supernatural spiritual" component involved.
Click to expand...


This whole discussion would move much faster if you just told us what your idea of a fair and valid test is.
 
No offense Don (well... that's not going to hold up) but, I thought the MDC had stopped testing dowsing because it's such a huge failing pile of fail.

I may be mistaken.
 
DowserDon said:
I think it worth noting what the MDC FAQ says:-
2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge?
"Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.”
Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal."

So it is worth looking for routes that scientists can take to examine dowsing. It might be scientifically explicable some time even if not now. This is not cheating.
Paranormal does not mean that there has to be a "supernatural spiritual" component involved.
Click to expand...

I have been pointing this out in another thread for quite a while now. As I see it, if any of the paranormal abilites do exist, then proving it in such a scientific test through sheer willpower alone should not be possible. Otherwise it would be very strange why something like this had not gotten proven earlier.

As I see it, there can only be two possible explanations for this, that I can think of as somewhat likely. Firstly that nothing paranormal exists at all, and that it is just make belief. Which seems to be what most users here has come to believe, strengthen by this "challenge" having been around for so long.

Lets say dowsing is possible, or telepathy. Or that we have a soul with a consciousness that can be separated from its physical body, or that somehow God exists, karma and so many other phenomenon that seems unlikely given the discoveries of science so far.

Any of that would then also say that science has missed something fundamental about reality and how or why it exists.

Some believe that we are here to evolve spiritually on an individual basis. I like the thought of that. If there is nothing besides what science so far has proven to exist, then that could also be said what is happening all the same. Pure chance and randomness might be making it so. Seems here on Earth, evolution and advancement is a very likely outcome, given enough time and under the right conditions. Makes you wonder how many Planets got through the first 20.000 years of life going through evolution, but before an animal gets to breathe air on the planet, the whole thing is hit by a colliding solar system or galaxy. Or a meteor show rips the planet apart, you get the idea.

But if there is a spiritual side to all of it, then we are going to have hidden factors that science has not discovered yet, and might not be able to discover. Because it would ruin the whole purpose. Individual spiritual evolution. That is what most religions seems to be about. If you believe, you might be able to see the signs in the major events happening, but if you do not believe you will have much opportunity to find a reason to dismiss such a connection. And while miracles might happen, then it seems simple enough to make sure that they do not become something science can prove to everyone beyond doubt that it really was a miracle. The fact that it is most likely not something that can be forced to happen again would be reason enough for science to dismiss it as not being a miracle.

See my point? So as I see it, the only thing the challenges are good for, is to expose frauds. And I doubt anyone truly gifted, if that truly exists, would fall for trying to misuse paranormal abilities for monetary gain and fame in the name of science.

But there are many who disagree with me, who cannot see any logic in this. I have tried to explain it in many ways. Seems to me that its just how its meant to be. A mystery and a paranormal mystery to all who aren't willing to truly investigate it with an open mind. And even then evidence or answers might still be years away. Death might bring the answers needed, but either we wont exist anymore, or the knowledge would be rather useless at that point.
 
kblood said:
See my point? So as I see it, the only thing the challenges are good for, is to expose frauds. And I doubt anyone truly gifted, if that truly exists, would fall for trying to misuse paranormal abilities for monetary gain and fame in the name of science.
Click to expand...

So does that mean every faith healer, every after-death communicator, and every channeller who charges money (or ask for "donations") is a fraud?
 
Ladewig said:
So does that mean every faith healer, every after-death communicator, and every channeller who charges money (or ask for "donations") is a fraud?
Click to expand...

I do not trust them much, but no. Because they are not doing it for the sole reason of proving it possible. They might actually be trying to help something good happen, whether it is in a paranormal way or not. Whether it helps or not would have to be up to each individuals personal experience about it to decide.

My point is the number of unknown factors that never seems to be taken into consideration when investigating these things, and how unwise it might be to believe it possible to provide scientific evidence for or against such a thing.

But I already explained that in my post, so I guess I have to assume you stopped reading at some point or skipped parts. Or just missed that detail, because I was not writing it this clear. But should have become evident from what I wrote after the part you quoted. Sorry if it was not.
 
kblood said:
And while miracles might happen, then it seems simple enough to make sure that they do not become something science can prove to everyone beyond doubt that it really was a miracle. The fact that it is most likely not something that can be forced to happen again would be reason enough for science to dismiss it as not being a miracle.
Click to expand...
The fact that such events happen no more often than would be expected by chance is reason enough for any rational person to dismiss them as not being miracles.
 
Jim_MDP said:
No offense Don (well... that's not going to hold up) but, I thought the MDC had stopped testing dowsing because it's such a huge failing pile of fail.

I may be mistaken.
Click to expand...

My claim has been accepted by Banachek. I am awaiting acceptance of my testing protocol by Prof French of Goldsmiths College, University of London who was appointed by Banachek. I wonder what is considered to be a "reasonable time" for a response as he was asked by Banachek last September. His only response so far has been to reply (once) that he is extremely busy and doesn't even acknowledge e-mails or recorded-delivery postal mail.
So yes. you are mistaken.:)
 
DowserDon said:
My claim has been accepted by Banachek. I am awaiting acceptance of my testing protocol by Prof French of Goldsmiths College, University of London who was appointed by Banachek. I wonder what is considered to be a "reasonable time" for a response as he was asked by Banachek last September. His only response so far has been to reply (once) that he is extremely busy and doesn't even acknowledge e-mails or recorded-delivery postal mail.
So yes. you are mistaken.:)
Click to expand...
If what you say is true, DowserDon, then I, too, owe you an apology. I didn't think you were a serious applicant. Congratulations on your acceptance from Banachek.

Would it be possible for you to share the correspondences between yourself and JREF officials here with us so that we might discuss in more detail?
 
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DowserDon said:
I am awaiting acceptance of my testing protocol by Prof French
Click to expand...
Then it might well be worth your posting it here, so we can advise you as the to the kind of objections (if any) Prof French is likely to raise to it. You could then practise your counterarguments on us and/or we could help you tweak it into something French/JREF would be more likely to accept. That should speed up the negotiation phase once French does eventually respond.

Can I ask what kind of success rate you have achieved with the test protocol you are proposing?
 
Pixel42 said:
Then it might well be worth your posting it here, so we can advise you as the to the kind of objections (if any) Prof French is likely to raise to it. You could then practise your counterarguments on us and/or we could help you tweak it into something French/JREF would be more likely to accept. That should speed up the negotiation phase once French does eventually respond.
Click to expand...
That's a good idea, Pixel42. Anything we say isn't official, but it might help. Also, I'd find it interesting to learn about how a testing protocol is negotiated.
 
Grats on the acceptance from Banachek! I look forward to seeing the results of the test. I've always found the claim of dowsing an interesting one.
 
kblood said:
I do not trust them much, but no. Because they are not doing it for the sole reason of proving it possible. They might actually be trying to help something good happen, whether it is in a paranormal way or not. Whether it helps or not would have to be up to each individuals personal experience about it to decide.

My point is the number of unknown factors that never seems to be taken into consideration when investigating these things, and how unwise it might be to believe it possible to provide scientific evidence for or against such a thing.

But I already explained that in my post, so I guess I have to assume you stopped reading at some point or skipped parts. Or just missed that detail, because I was not writing it this clear. But should have become evident from what I wrote after the part you quoted. Sorry if it was not.
Click to expand...

Despite the snark, you are correct. It was my misreading that lead to my confusion; it was not your writing.

Would you consider moving this discussion to a new thread? Or point me to one of your old threads where you have already put forth these ideas?

I have a more detailed question regarding this statement

And I doubt anyone truly gifted, if that truly exists, would fall for trying to misuse paranormal abilities for monetary gain and fame in the name of science.
Click to expand...

Imagine that there is a person with some ability that science has grossly underestimated or completely missed. He uses this ability to humbly help others and does not seek fame or fortune with this power - in fact he knows that nothing good will come of trying to use this power to seek fame or fortune. Then one day he says to himself, "if I were to pass the JREF challenge then tens or hundreds of millions of people will become aware of the source of my power1. Their enlightenment could then improve virtually all aspects of society. Of course, I will be cursed or condemned for my actions, but I am willing to lose my soul to help all these other people - the sacrifice will be worth it." If someone said all that, then could he demonstrate the power to open-minded, scientific minds?





(1) that source could be God, universal consciousness, universal karma, or some other power - but the person with the ability knows what it is.
 
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