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Challenge applications

More on testing.

I doubt DD will be allowed to set up 8 lanes, and then say he wants to do 4 and see how he does, and if he does not get 4 out of 4, ask to do the other four to get 6 out of 8, or to even request that the first 4 be discounted because he was "off his game" and "warming up". The number of trials is critical the way I see it.

Has JREF has done a dummy scenario, and dummy contract, using Zener cards?

Where can one find examples of protocols that have been proposed?

gnome said:
Some might. Though the better the test was designed, the fewer people would--which is why they try so hard to come up with as good a test as possible, leaving nearly nothing to chance and trying to eliminate all chance of cheating.

If someone actually passed the MDC, the most common response would not be "how did he cheat?" but "let's study what he can do and learn why it works".

A logical and reasoned answer. Problems with test design are why it seems the telepathy with zener cards is the simplest to avoid cheating and the easiest to decide what is a hit and what is a miss.

But it seems from some web reading that it is also the one that is most tested. One psychic web site claims that there are extensive studies to prove it works. Studies that no doubt have the usual flaws.

Ladewig said:
MORE ETA: welcome. This forum is populated by a very, very wide range of people. If you find some deliberately (or accidentally) off-putting or downright rude, please ignore them and participate with the rest of us. In general, people will not mock you for spelling or grammar errors unless they occur in a post in which you are bragging about your superior intelligence or education. Also, cow-orkers is not an accidental misspelling of co-workers.

I too am learning (never too old) - good advice.
 
So if a forum member really wants to see me put to the test, think of a way of disguising where trenches have been dug.
A thought has occured to me about this. As has been pointed out the disturbed spots will be muddy and trampled, it will be hard to remove all signs that something has been going on around them compared to the undisturbed spots. What might be easier would be to make the undisturbed spots look more like the disturbed ones by spraying water and trampling the ground around them. It might be best to spray and trample all the spots right at the start, before even the open test is done.

The important thing is that once the digging party has finished all the dowsing spots should look the same, whether there is a trench beneath them or not. It doesn't matter whether they all look undisturbed or all look disturbed, as long as there are no visual clues which the dowser could pick up (consciously or unconsciously) to tell him which is which.
 
Why not tell possible applicants to go to Excel (or get a friend to go to Excel) and play with it using the proper formulae, so that everyone can get some idea of the odds?
Most MDC applicants are sure they can achieve 100% success, they can be quite surprised that they only need to do significantly better than chance to win the prize and are therefore allowed some failures.

The problem with DowserDon's proposed protocol is that he specifies there should be one trench under each walkway, which means he needs lots of long walkways to reach the required odds even if he finds every single trench. As I already pointed out if the hole digging was more random than that - if each walkway could have trenches under 0, 1, 2 ... up to all of its potential spots - then both the number and length of walkways required to reach the required odds by finding all the trenches would be reduced. Alternatively the number of walkways/spots could be set so that the required success rate was much less than 100% whilst still beating the required odds, and the number of walkways/spots needed would still be less than he is currently proposing.

When I checked out what type of applications were received, I wonder how such esoteric claims could ever be reduced to a formula.
This is why each test protocol is negotiated seperately and there are no set protocols/odds. JREF seem to prefer the kind of blind test with specified chance odds to beat which we've been discussing wherever that is possible, but it frequently isn't.

Where can one find examples of protocols that have been proposed?
The threads in the challenge applications subforum give them, in those rare cases where the application got that far in the process.
 
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A thought has occured to me about this. As has been pointed out the disturbed spots will be muddy and trampled, it will be hard to remove all signs that something has been going on around them compared to the undisturbed spots. What might be easier would be to make the undisturbed spots look more like the disturbed ones by spraying water and trampling the ground around them. It might be best to spray and trample all the spots right at the start, before even the open test is done.
Or perhaps cover them all with blankets or tarpaulin - if that does not disturb the dowsing.

I also think that it is important to dig an extra hole for the free run, where DowserDon knows there is a hole, so that he can confirm that he is able to dowse correctly under the circumstances offered. That will prevent some of the later excuses.
 
I would also posit that the average person has limited knowledge of the scientific method and how it may work for or against them. Experimental design is COMPLICATED! Particularly when attempting to prove something at p = <0.001! I mean, dang! Statistics is certainly not my forte, but the probability that a medication has an effect need only be <0.05... and there's far more than a million at stake there!

Your letter, Oak, has brought me back into the discussion. Experimental design is complicated. Let's look at famous dowsing experiments.
Randi's trucks containing water shows that no supernatural being or force helps a dowser to decide which truck water is in. Randi's bottles beneath buckets shows that no supernatural being helps a dowser decide which bottle contains water. Similarly for his pipework experiments. They are all superb experiments for disproving the supernatural. They've succeeded. Their flaw small is that someone can come along and say that their supernatural helper is better than others and nothing in the previous tests can disprove their claim.
They have not disproved dowsing in the field because the experiments were not designed to examine a field trial. Designing a field trial is admittedly difficult and is unlikely to be error free.
If, in a test there was a requirement for a dowser to find water in the field, it would be extremely difficult to eliminate the possibility of the dowser reading the landscape. So my experience of finding service trenches is the basis for a less error prone experiment that does not assume that dowsing is driven by the supernatural.
It uses trench excavations that have been refilled with a drainage pipe, providing a void, sand and gravel ballast and topped up with the original soil and turf until level. Spoil from digging is to be removed along the walkway, not out from the side, so that there is no clue where the trench was dug. As plywood can be delivered before the digging starts, the digging will be conducted from the plywood, thus preserving the trench edge which will be hidden beneath the plywood anyway. The spoil will be dumped temporarily on tarpaulin and the excess removed – along the walkway.

I might as well continue to answer some queries about the dimensions of the proposed trenches (still to be agreed by my assessor, Prof French, so could be amended). I am aware that I have found service trenches around my 40 year-old house; they would have been 0.75 metres deep as pointed out. A 15’ main sewer was even easier to detect. Remember, I am not doing research at this stage. I am in a contest and one error will see me removed from the Challenge for at least a year. So my choice of a 1 metre deep trench seems prudent.
If someone is going to dig a trench one metre deep, they will need it to be one metre wide and nearly two metres long so that they can wield a spade and shovel. The 2 metre width is useful. If I wandered off course on a 4 foot wide board I wouldn't want to miss a centrally placed hole because it was only one foot wide.
If the digging is done by volunteers I needn't worry too much about deeper holes being more expensive to dig - what is another bottle of beer amongst friends.
The real cost lies in disguising where the holes have been dug.
A small excavator is likely to leave a track to and from the hole requiring even more expensive covers which is why the experiment is designed around hand dug trenches.
I do not know the limits of detection for any of these parameters that I'm having to decide in advance, so in March (hopefully) I'm likely to go for something I know and am happy to be tested on rather than something at the limits. I am conscious of the fact that I have only one chance.
My latest ideas on disguising where the trenches have been dug and keeping costs down is that the trenches will be hidden by plywood 8’ by 4’ and formed into a walkway 4’ wide. Each plywood sheet would be marked so as to divide it in half. Each walkway would comprise 6 boards marked 0,1; 2,3; 4,5; 6,7; 8,9; and 10,0. The 0 places would be there so that I would be at the right height before reaching position 1 or after leaving position 10. Three walkways with ten position options would be similar to the testing of Swedish woman who was tested by Banachek using three sets of ten playing cards.
Oak continued “I'll reiterate what many others here have stressed. An experiment fraught with potential design complication/expense should be subject to running one or more pilot tests to further refine said design. Coming up with protocol stipulations that seem to come out of thin air is not sound experimental design.”
I hope I’ve shown they did not come out of thin air. The protocol will be subject to pilot studies in March, weather permitting. If Prof French and Pixel 42 attend I’m sure that together we can refine the test protocol before agreeing the proper preliminary test.
 
Randi's tests are designed to show that dowsers can't do what they say they can. You are forgetting the baseline test where the dowsers know where the water is, they detect it, and say the test will be easy to pass and that they will admit dowsing does not work if they fail the test. They fail, and out come the excuses.
 
DowserDon: I hope you will agree by now that the first thing you need to do, before you go to the trouble of arranging a double blind test and inviting anyone to observe it, is an open test (step 1 of the simplified dry run protocol I outlined in post #76). You need to find a spot somewhere - your own garden will do - which does not respond to your dowsing, dig and fill a trench exactly as you have described and then check that you now get a positive dowsing response. If you don't you need to experiment with different trench depth/size/fillings until you do. No-one but you needs to be present, this is solely so that you can be sure that you know exactly the kind of trench which needs to be dug in order for you to be able to detect it. Only then will it be time to set up the dry run and invite me, Prof French and/or your local sceptics group to observe it.

Having said all that Almo is of course correct: every dowser who has taken a properly run double blind test has passed the open test and yet failed to do better than chance in the blinded one. If the same thing happens to you, will you be prepared to accept that your perceived dowsing success rate is indeed due to the confounding factors that have been discussed in this thread? You are expecting us to accept a positive result as evidence that there is more to dowsing than that, but the quid pro quo is that you need to be prepared to accept a negative result as evidence that there isn't.
 
I absolutely agree with Pixel42 (at least on her first paragraph above). I believe all of us (including DowserDon) were getting a little ahead of ourselves. DowserDon has detected all sorts of things underground, but never (as far as we know) anything exactly like what he or we are suggesting for an actual test. This will allow him to refine exactly what works and what does not work for him without the risk of appearing foolish because one small variable was overlooked.

The second paragraph would be ideal, but I've long ago given up on the idea of forcing anyone to give statements or drop beliefs based on evidence. I'd like them to and sometimes they do, but neither I nor any of us can force such a thing.

Ward
 
At some point DD is going to have to be specific, and I suggest sooner rather than later.

JREF argues for specificity...the test must be measured with metrics, that is numbers and formulae.

I have been exploring the practicalities and strategies for winning the MDC assuming there are psychic powers (or even unmeasurable abilities).

DowserDon. Despite wanting you to succeed, you might find the odds pretty daunting.
With human error at play, and only 4 trials per test, you might need God's help if you are to win.

*** Your minimum actual odds to win the challenge with your method appear to exceed 2 trillion to 1. ***

Each test comprises a number of trials each with a number of choices (states or cases)(of cards or marked positions).

Test 1... Final Self-test
Test 2... Witness test for consideration
Test 3... Preliminary test
Test 4... Final test

For an applicant to succeed he/she must get great results for tests 1 and 2.

I cannot find where MCD states the odds needed for test3 and test 4 individually (greater than 1 thousand?), and the odds needed if the tests are taken in combination (greater than 1 million?)

Here is a summary of the spread sheet results:

(a) Number of states is 6 (6 cards, or 6 positions per plank)
(b) Odds are calculated using the inverse of the Excel BINOM.DIST function
(c) T is the number of trials/test
(d) E is the expected number of hits per trial
(d) H1,H2,H3,H4 are the number of hits (successes) for tests 1,2,3,4
(e) P1,P2,P3,P4 are the odds for H1,H2,H3,H4 (rounded somewhat)
(f) P34 are the combined odds for tests 3 and 4
(g) P1234 are the combined odds for tests 1,2,3 and 4
(h) k=thousand, M=million, G=Billion, T=Trillion


T__________4______4_______8______50_____200

E________0.67___0.67____1.34____8.33____33.3

H1_________4______4_______6______19______53
P1_______1,3k___1.3k____2.4k____5.7k____7.1k

H2_________4______4_______6______19______53
P2_______1,3k___1.3k____2.4k____5.7k____7.1k

H3_________4______4_______6______19______53
P3_______1,3k___1.3k____2.4k____5.7k____7.1k

H4_________4______3_______6______19______53
P4_______1,3k_____65____2.4k____5.7k____7.1k

P34______1,6M____41k____2.4k____5.3M____4.6M
P1234____2,8T____35G____1,9T____3,2T____1.3T


One must look at the whole picture for a candidate to succeed. And look at the (minimum) overall odds!!!

One must assume that human error will creep in. With a low number of trials per test, little or no error is acceptable.

PS - I am getting older and I know I am more prone to silly errors. Please check me.
PPS - This was time-consuming but interesting. I learned one must "sweat the details" because that is where the Devil hides.
PPPS - The odds of doing 200 trials and getting NONE right is 6.8 quadrillion. The odds for getting less hits increase as one moves away from the expected.
 
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After posting the previous reply, I started to do some checks on the spreadsheet. I do not get the results I expected.

Will have to check why. For example, if I put in the expected number of hits for a large number of trials the odds should reduce to 1 to 1, and they don't.
 
I think the formula is susceptible to internal computer limits. Especially with large number of tests and hits. The divide by zero error comes up.

Again, just shows that one must not assume computers are precise.
 
If he could really dowse for water, his chances of winning the MDC would be 100%. They don't even require 100% success. Just significantly better than chance.
 
*** Your minimum actual odds to win the challenge with your method appear to exceed 2 trillion to 1. ***
Huh? :confused:

Given that the test is designed such that he'd have a 1 in 1000 chance of passing the preliminary test even if the dowsing ability didn't exist and (assuming the final test is a straight repeat of the same test) a 1 in a million chance of passing both even if there were no such ability then I think it's safe to say you've got your sums wrong.
 
A thought has occured to me about this. As has been pointed out the disturbed spots will be muddy and trampled, it will be hard to remove all signs that something has been going on around them compared to the undisturbed spots. What might be easier would be to make the undisturbed spots look more like the disturbed ones by spraying water and trampling the ground around them. It might be best to spray and trample all the spots right at the start, before even the open test is done.

The important thing is that once the digging party has finished all the dowsing spots should look the same, whether there is a trench beneath them or not. It doesn't matter whether they all look undisturbed or all look disturbed, as long as there are no visual clues which the dowser could pick up (consciously or unconsciously) to tell him which is which.

Good idea. It would be simple enough to have the observers give the final "thumbs up" that the site meets their specifications for being as "cue-free" as possible.
 
I hope I’ve shown they did not come out of thin air. The protocol will be subject to pilot studies in March, weather permitting. If Prof French and Pixel 42 attend I’m sure that together we can refine the test protocol before agreeing the proper preliminary test.

Yes, I see your rationale. As long as the specifications satisfy you, you're willing to flip the bill and it's been approved by MDC, I suppose you can dig as deep as you'd like. I'm riveted and I hope this all happens.
 
For the benefit of anyone who finds the probability calculations difficult to fathom (which includes me) perhaps it might be helpful to work through the logic for an ability that we know really does exist.

Say you've been blind from birth, and you want to know whether this sight that other people talk about really exists. You might set up a test as follows:

1. Have cards with four raised patterns on them (circle, square, triangle, wavy lines) made. You, and any other unsighted person, can only detect which pattern is which by touch, but any sighted person will also be able to see which is which.

2. Have the person who claims to be sighted sit in a chair at one end of a closed room whilst you stand at the other end. Ensure there is no way the testee can receive information by their other senses.

3. Use a four-sided die to randomly determine which one of the four patterns to hold up and ask the testee to say which it is.

Now you know that if you were sitting in the chair and just guessing you'd be right one time in four purely by chance, so you need to do this enough times for the testee to be right significantly more often than that to be able to safely conclude anything from your test. Say you decide to do this 100 times. You'd expect the testee to be right around 25 times by chance, but if he can really do what he says then he should be right all 100 times. But you allow for his ability to be less than 100% accurate (maybe he's a little short-sighted and might occasionally confuse the circle and square), so you set a success criteria of, say, 85 correct identifications.

Suppose you test dozens of people in this way and, no matter how convinced they are they that have this ability and that they will score 100% correct, none ever manage to get more than 28 right. What would you conclude?

This is where we are with dowsing (and indeed all the other supposed abilities usually classed as paranormal). Dozens, probably hundreds by now, of people who claim to be able to dowse have been tested by JREF and others under circumstances which exclude the use of information obtained by their ordinary senses, and none have ever done better than would be expected by chance. It's not a case of no-one quite reaching the specified success criteria, say beating odds of 800:1 but not quite getting to the required 1000:1 - such a partial success would be extremely noteworthy and generate a great deal of interest and excitement. It's a case of - no matter how convinced they are of their ability and their expected 100% success rate - none ever doing better than chance.

Now DowserDon believes that the reason for that continual failure is that the conditions under which all those tests were done didn't match the conditions under which dowsing works closely enough. In my analogy it would be as if the blind person was unknowingly conducting his tests in a dark room, where even someone with 20/20 vision would do no better than chance. I think it's reasonable for him to want to explore that possibility, however unlikely it may seem to me, and I'm happy to assist in any way I can.

ETA: It's worth noting that in my analogy the blind man's error would be apparent when the open test was done: the sighted person would be unable to confirm the identity of a card, even when told what it was, if there was no light. This is why the open test is so important, and why the fact that dowsers never have any difficulty with it makes me doubtful that DowserDon's explanation of why they never do better than chance in double blind testing is the correct one.
 
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...you might need God's help if you are to win.

Not really. If one can do what one claims, there is a virtual guarantee one will succeed and win. It is that simple.

DowserDon is an anagram for "Re: Own Odds" and "Rod News: Do". So there you go.



PartSkeptic is an anagram for "Aptest Prick". But that would only qualify if you claimed you could transmit Zener Cards to a suitable receiver, wouldn't it?
 
Pixel42 said:
Given that the test is designed such that he'd have a 1 in 1000 chance of passing the preliminary test even if the dowsing ability didn't exist and (assuming the final test is a straight repeat of the same test) a 1 in a million chance of passing both even if there were no such ability then I think it's safe to say you've got your sums wrong.


(A)
Your logic/math in this thread is correct when working with 100% accuracy and only considering the preliminary and final tests.

Probability to get 1 trial correct with 6 positions is 1/6 (the odds are inverse 6/1)
Probability to get 2 trials correct with 6 positions is 1/6*1/6 (odds are 6x6)
Probability to get 4 trials correct with 6 positions is 1/6^4 (odds are 6^4 = 6*6*6*6) which is 1,296.

The odds for two tests each with 4 trials can be (6*6*6*6)*(6*6*6*6) = 1296*1296 = 1,679,616

Your math works even if one looks at both tests as one big combined test.
Probability to get 8 trials correct with 6 positions is (1/6)^8 (odds are 6*6*6*6*6*6*6*6) = 1,679,616

(B)
However, you are only looking at a part of the picture.
Don is NOT going to do 2 tests, but at least 4.

One to prove to himself he can do it (with pub skeptics), and then (at least) one test with a respected referee. Otherwise he does not even qualify for an application.

This is then a minimum of 4 tests.
Odds are 1,296 * 1,296 * 1,296 * 1,296 if one does the simple math for 100% success rate

Combining tests by considering them to be one big test gives the same result
Probability to get 16 trials correct with 6 positions is (1/6)^16
Odds are 6^16 = 1,679,616 * 1,679,616 which exceeds 2 trillion.
 
However, you are only looking at a part of the picture.
Don is NOT going to do 2 tests, but at least 4.
To win the MDC requires the applicant to pass just two tests: the preliminary and the final.

What testing the applicant does or does not choose to do beforehand is entirely up to them. You'd think every applicant would have the sense to do some investigations and a dry run to see if their ability (a) works at all under the test conditions which they've agreed to and (b) is reliable enough to get the agreed success rate, but almost none do. If they do have the sense to do so and discover that they can't do what they've been claiming to do after all then they should also have the sense to withdraw their application. If they discover they can achieve the required success rate under test conditions then there's no reason to think they won't be able to do so again in the test proper and they can proceed to take the MDC with justified confidence, rather than with the totally unjustified (and about to be shattered) confidence of the typical applicant.
 

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