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Challenge applications

Also true, I think. If there is no test that can change his mind, then there really is no sense in pursuing it.

As there are no words I can use that will be useful to this forum, I shall not pursue it either until such time as I have done more experiments.

FYI I have never claimed that dowsers are any better at avoiding the ideomotor effect than the rest of the population. I do however think it is not the sole effect in dowsing.
As for an earlier reference by a contributor to teaching dowsing in a class room - that is like trying to teach Formula 1 racing in an inflatable dinghy.

I chose plywood after testing at my home - around 90 miles from the test area. But as I dug the trench, filled it before covering with plywood, I admit that the selection could have been compromised by the ideomotor effect. An earlier plan had been that one walkway would be covered with carpet, another would be raked level and a third would be covered with ply. Preliminary tests (not viewed by me) showed that the carpet and raking did not disguise the worked area well enough - hence plywood all over.

Re Pixel 42's question 3 - the area of Bucks that the test was conducted in has been subject to very little rain for three years (you must have seen how low the water was in the pond). "Little" does not mean none. Just before the trenches were dug there was a downpour. There has been no rain since. The soil is drying out.

Ward asked about others who had dowsed near the road. Some years ago I had looked for the water source of the pond. I found a response near the back of the pond but continued walking and found another near the road, I continued and found another three running at right angles to the road. It considered that the four were more likely to be 19th century or older land drains. On Sunday I showed the location of two of these to the assembled viewers – two people found positive responses (a third, Prof Mike Heap thought he might have too but was not sure). My two sons, their partners and my two granddaughters had each found them on earlier occasions. Your photo of Prof. Chris French was taken at that position and shows how not to hold dowsing rods – they were pointing slightly downwards and so were already in a stable low-gravity position. I had demonstrated earlier that they should be pointed slightly upwards to a point of instability so that any very slight rotation of the arm/wrist (2 minutes on a watch face) would tip the rods to fall under the action of gravity, thus rotating outwards or inwards across the body.

As for Pixel 42’s carp about it not being a field test – it certainly wasn’t a truck, pipe or tube test. It was the first field test that I know of. She was in a field. I assume her “Good grief” meant that she could think of no logical argument to mine. If she knows the rate of attenuation of the dowsing signal through plywood, perhaps she could send me a reference. I don’t. I admit that I had inadvertently designed an experiment where the results could be interpreted in two ways. Bad but not blinkered. Putting sand or water into bottles and hiding them under upturned buckets I consider to be a worse experiment as only a supernatural helper could produce a positive result (could you tell the difference between coffee and petrol under such conditions).

“Old men as dowsers.” I strongly advise younger men with a career in science ahead of them to steer well clear. It is too stressful and even its investigation in as unbiased way as possible will do your scientific standing no good at all. At my age I can ignore it.

What has amazed me in this forum is the attitude that I should stop experimenting. It is my time, my money, my reputation such as it is. It is only my work that can convince me that there is nothing else to investigate. It certainly isn’t the words of a group which believes there is nothing that cannot be explained by the wooo of the ideomotor effect.

I shall not contribute to this forum again until I have more experimental results to impart. Enjoy your talking.
 
Re Pixel 42's question 3 - the area of Bucks that the test was conducted in has been subject to very little rain for three years (you must have seen how low the water was in the pond). "Little" does not mean none. Just before the trenches were dug there was a downpour.
I take this to mean you are suggesting that the responses you got where there were no trenches were to water. So are you now suggesting that it is, after all, water that dowsing detects and not disturbed ground as you had previously been arguing? How come the water signal got through the plywood when the trenches signal didn't?

Still if you now think you can detect water that's simply soaked into the ground after a shower, even through plywood, at least you won't have to go to the trouble and expense of digging trenches any more. Just bury barrels of water in the ground, right, cover the ground with plywood, and see if you can find the barrels.

As for Pixel 42’s carp about it not being a field test – it certainly wasn’t a truck, pipe or tube test. It was the first field test that I know of. She was in a field.
Plenty of previous double blind dowsing tests have been done in fields. I would actually describe this one as being done in a garden, but that's not the point I was making. When people use the phrase "field test" they usually mean that the test is being done under "natural" (for want of a better word) rather than artificial conditions.

http://www.answers.com/topic/field-test

(fēld'tĕst')
tr.v., -test·ed, -test·ing, -tests.
To test (a technique or product) under conditions of actual operation or use.

As I said it's difficult to come up with a field test of dowsing that can be properly double blinded, which is why simulations such as the one you came up with are usually used.

I assume her “Good grief” meant that she could think of no logical argument to mine.
You assume wrong. My "good grief" was an exclamation of amazement at the lengths to which people will go when trying to rationalise away compelling evidence that a belief they are desperately trying to hang on to is mistaken.

I admit that I had inadvertently designed an experiment where the results could be interpreted in two ways.
Only by someone determined to explain away any and all compelling evidence that a belief in which they are emotionally invested is not mistaken.

What has amazed me in this forum is the attitude that I should stop experimenting.
The friendly advice to stop wasting your time on a lost cause is well meant. But it is, as you say, your money and time you're wasting, so feel free to ignore it.
 
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I think nobody has said you should stop testing yourself. It really is your and only your business.

But, as there is no good evidence, this community here will remain "not amused" :)
 
I think nobody has said you should stop testing yourself. It really is your and only your business.
Like I said, he has his work cut out. According to his interpretation of the results of his first test he now has the following confounding factors to deal with:

1. The signal dowsing detects from disturbed ground does not get through plywood, and possibly other materials

2. He'll still get a positive response even if the signal is blocked by plywood (or presumably absent for any other reason, e.g. the ground not being disturbed) if he knows he should expect one, due to the ideomotor effect

3. He'll get false positives from undisturbed ground, even if it's covered with plywood, if it's rained recently.

I genuinely don't understand how someone who has acknowledged the existence of so many confounding factors can still believe that any dowser could ever get an unambiguous positive response which tells them they are over disturbed ground when they didn't already know that, but if he's determined to continue with his testing regardless then good luck to him.

I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions to offer for a workable blinded test protocol that addresses all these difficulties, but if he can come up with one I'll be happy to critique it.
 
Still if you now think you can detect water that's simply soaked into the ground after a shower, even through plywood, at least you won't have to go to the trouble and expense of digging trenches any more. Just bury barrels of water in the ground, right, cover the ground with plywood, and see if you can find the barrels.
Why go even that far; why not simply pre-soak essentially dry ground in defined lines and cover with rigid sheeting (plywood, plastic, foam, etc)? Of course, one could claim that the barrel material inhibits the 'signal' (as could the suggested rigid sheet materials, of course).

I do find it irritating that so-called dowsers (at least those willing to keep an open mind) prefer to continually test different protocols to prove the effect rather than seek to validate the much greater likelihood that the answer lies in the well-known ideomotor effect. I suppose that speaks volumes for the type of person who typically falls for dowsing. I reckon the vast majority of dowsers are also inclined to visit mediums!
 
Bad but not blinkered. Putting sand or water into bottles and hiding them under upturned buckets I consider to be a worse experiment as only a supernatural helper could produce a positive result (could you tell the difference between coffee and petrol under such conditions).

I'm unsure exactly what you're saying. Why bring in petrol and coffee? The dowsers in the tests described (see the video I linked earlier, for example) were perfectly happy that they could detect the difference between water and sand in the bottles, under the buckets, when they knew what was under the bucket. Exactly as you claimed you could when doing the open test with plywood covering the trenches. Even without the covering, how is detecting the difference between water and sand any more unlikely than detecting the difference between disturbed and undisturbed ground, which is your claim? What non-supernatural explanation can you suggest for your ability? (And what exactly counts as disturbed ground? How long after something has been dug up does it settle back to being undisturbed? Can you detect mole runs or worm holes?)



It certainly isn’t the words of a group which believes there is nothing that cannot be explained by the wooo of the ideomotor effect.

Are you suggesting that the ideomotor effect is woo? I thought you were claiming that it was the reason why you got a reaction when dowsing in the open section of the test.

Your rationalisation seems to be that a sheet of plywood shielded you from whatever signals you normally receive from disturbed ground, and instead the ideomotor effect took over, because you knew which sheet covered the trench. You apparently found this indistinguishable from the signal you get when detecting disturbed ground.

When you didn't know where the target was, you say that the plywood was shielding the signal.

Now, you might have a point about plywood just happening to be a shield if you got no result over a known trench. At that point, the test could have been halted, and an alternative test designed. But with the results exactly the same as the ideomotor effect produces, there is no need to bring in any other explanation; Occam's razor can be used to remove that.
 
:D
A revelatory parting shot: unless I've missed something substantial, "talking" remains Don's only accomplishment in the field of dowsing.
Not quite - he's succeeded in spending a significant amount of time and money, too, for absolutely no return. I think he should be commended for his altruism! :D
 
This has been a fascinating journey into the rarefied civility and humanity of the sceptical and scientifically-minded community, and DowserDon has represented his own community in a manner to match.... I'd like to salute everyone concerned, reading this thread has been a refreshing change from the belligerent weariness emerging from so many clashes of the fundamentals and the rational humans (on the science forum of Amazon, for instance, totally hijacked by antievilushionists and climate "skeptics")...

I was especially impressed with the rigorously conducted thinking and communications of Pixel42 (I love your avatar... is that you?) and the tender but direct reaching out of Realpaladin to offer help to Don to allow him to absorb and learn what was what.... I believe a paladin is a horseman? You sir, like the horse whisperer, have a heart... you are the Believer-whisperer! ;)

The devolution of Don back down from an apparently rational but mildly deluded man of limited actual knowledge, into a self-deluding old man clinging to his little bit of "special" in the face of the truth, whilst not surprising (reconfirming that humans have to work hard to achieve and continue to maintain rationality.... some find it easier than others, but everyone has to keep the maintenance up, so to speak), does show up his earlier apparent painstaking efforts to be rigorously open-mindedly honest and humble about getting to the truth, to be a sort of pre-emptive smoke screen laid down ahead of time to cover his retreating ass after the event!

As such, the playing out of the whole process has been a tidy insight into the tenacity of the human need to believe... just for its own sake! The deviousness of the mind... they say we are not really in control of ourselves, if you define yourself as the "I", which apparently is a fiction projected by the rest of the subsystems we are to tie it all together as a recording function or something... or a consciousness bootstrapping mechanism?.... vigilance! I know I've directed my own changes through focusing my mind, so there must be a two-way influence in our brains... to avoid wandering off into faulty thinking/action/perception... that last in particular an apparently innocuous but very dangerous and very common error! Sorry, I'm in danger of expansion/rambling! :boggled:

Thanks everyone for representing the side of civilisation (and we can only dream, the future survival of this human species!)
 
This has been a fascinating journey into the rarefied civility and humanity of the sceptical and scientifically-minded community, and DowserDon has represented his own community in a manner to match.... I'd like to salute everyone concerned, reading this thread has been a refreshing change from the belligerent weariness emerging from so many clashes of the fundamentals and the rational humans (on the science forum of Amazon, for instance, totally hijacked by antievilushionists and climate "skeptics")...

I was especially impressed with the rigorously conducted thinking and communications of Pixel42 (I love your avatar... is that you?) and the tender but direct reaching out of Realpaladin to offer help to Don to allow him to absorb and learn what was what.... I believe a paladin is a horseman? You sir, like the horse whisperer, have a heart... you are the Believer-whisperer! ;)

The devolution of Don back down from an apparently rational but mildly deluded man of limited actual knowledge, into a self-deluding old man clinging to his little bit of "special" in the face of the truth, whilst not surprising (reconfirming that humans have to work hard to achieve and continue to maintain rationality.... some find it easier than others, but everyone has to keep the maintenance up, so to speak), does show up his earlier apparent painstaking efforts to be rigorously open-mindedly honest and humble about getting to the truth, to be a sort of pre-emptive smoke screen laid down ahead of time to cover his retreating ass after the event!

As such, the playing out of the whole process has been a tidy insight into the tenacity of the human need to believe... just for its own sake! The deviousness of the mind... they say we are not really in control of ourselves, if you define yourself as the "I", which apparently is a fiction projected by the rest of the subsystems we are to tie it all together as a recording function or something... or a consciousness bootstrapping mechanism?.... vigilance! I know I've directed my own changes through focusing my mind, so there must be a two-way influence in our brains... to avoid wandering off into faulty thinking/action/perception... that last in particular an apparently innocuous but very dangerous and very common error! Sorry, I'm in danger of expansion/rambling! :boggled:

Thanks everyone for representing the side of civilisation (and we can only dream, the future survival of this human species!)

First off: welcome to the board!

Second: thank you for your kind words... but I have to be honest... I am not always this mild... but everyone deserves a first chance! (About the second chance... well, there can be a lot of discussion on that ;) )
But you just caught me in this instance, there are a lot of others that find the patience to support questing souls to, what for a lot of us is rather seemingly inevitable, the conclusion that they can not reproduce their powers under scrutiny.
Hang around, it's a good crowd to meet on the Net.

Last: A word of warning... the fora can become quite addictive and heated discussions ensue more often than not... especially with those that 'believe in something (an animal, a theory, a superpowered phantomic friend...)' and who try to convince everyone that they "don't get it".
 
asydhouse,

While you do give DowserDon credit in your post, I just want to say that I think he fully deserves half the credit in this case. It takes two (sides) to have a civil argument. The fact that it was all of us against one suggests that maybe he deserves slightly more than half the credit. He's such a rare case on the forum of someone who explains what they believe they can do and then follows through. No big drama. He wasn't here to fight. He was here to rationally discuss and set up experimental protocols.

Obviously, the results of the experiment were negative and he understandably resists that evidence. But I expect that if he continues to believe in his abilities that he'll come back here with a new and improved protocol and we'll all get to enjoy working with him again.

I can't think of a similar case. Anita Ikonen started out that way, but that conversation devolved into a total mess. It did lead to a test and a second "demonstration" though.

Anyway, welcome to the forum and hopefully you can help out if and when DowserDon returns.

Ward
 
I've followed this thread from the beginning. Like asydhouse, I have been impressed by the (mostly) civil tone exhibited here, as well as the sincere attempts to help DowserDon design a definitive demonstration of dowsing. (Alliteration attack; apologies to all.)

I think Pixel42 was absolutely right when she said that people who "know" that they can do something will reject disconfirmation of the ability. But I submit that there are two kinds of rejection.

First is the kind we see in people who claim after the fact that “negative influences” were present. This we can call an excuse behavior. DowserDon, on the other hand, sought explanations for his failure, not in malignant influences but in his not having accounted for all variables. This isn't making excuses, it's applying the scientific method, even if not quite as we would prefer, and even if it's still a denial of the results.

I think, also that wardenclyffe is correct in writing that “I expect that if he continues to believe in his abilities that he'll come back here with a new and improved protocol and we'll all get to enjoy working with him again. “

Having said that, I do want to address one item in asydhouse's post: his characterization of DowserDon as "old," as an implied explanation for DowserDon's reluctance to accept that the ideomotor effect was the cause of his apparent success prior to the test that Pixel42 witnessed.

In fact, we have seen numerous people of various ages who believe that they can dowse, or read minds, or whatever, who fail when the conditions of the test preclude the (non-paranormal) clues upon which they have been relying.

(I'm 70 and while I consider myself old by the standards of many people, I am reminded of a friend of my wife's, who on hearing that a mutual acquaintance had just turned 78, exclaimed, “Oh, to be 78 again.” She was 96. At the time, I was a mere lad of 61.)

By the way, although this is among my first posts, I've been reading the JREF Forum sporadically for 8 or 9 years. I just didn't have time to devote to posting until now, five years after I retired from teaching at a university in the US.
 
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I was especially impressed with the rigorously conducted thinking and communications of Pixel42
:o

(I love your avatar... is that you?)
I wish. It's Barbara Wright, a character in Doctor Who whose first name I share. I picked it from the available options when I joined a Doctor Who forum and imported it when I joined this forum out of sheer lack of imagination.

I agree with Wardencliffe that DowserDon deserves most of the credit for the relative civility of this thread. His understanding of the need for double blind testing and willingness to spend time and money doing it is extremely unusual in an MDC applicant. It's regrettable that he went into denial when faced with the results, but understandable; it must be very difficult to accept that something in which you are so emotionally invested is a crock. I'm still hopeful that he'll eventually come around, but it will take time and probably more testing.

I notice from the latest email from JREF that they've produced an educational pack on dowsing for schools. I'd love to know what DowserDon thinks of it.

I knew that JREF had tested more dowsers than any other type of applicant but I was surprised at just how high the percentage was:

You’ll read about the interesting “ideomotor effect” in this discussion, and I can tell you that unless you’ve actually experienced it, you just can’t imagine how strong and convincing it is. I’ve personally tested dowsers and dowsing literally hundreds of times, all over the world, because some 80% of the applications for the JREF’s million-dollar challenge are for this claimed ability! These are applications that come from, mostly, honestly self-deluded people who are convinced they have this ability, and I
hope that when you’ve completed this course, you’ll have a much greater understanding of the fact that people often can, and do, talk themselves into accepting fiction as fact.
 
Only by someone determined to explain away any and all compelling evidence that a belief in which they are emotionally invested is not mistaken.


The friendly advice to stop wasting your time on a lost cause is well meant. But it is, as you say, your money and time you're wasting, so feel free to ignore it.

DD has made his first attempt to test his own dowsing claims. Following failure of the test (which he quite rightly designed himself for the purposes of checking the efficacy of the design) he has come up on the day of failure, with some postulations as to the cause of that failure, citing plywood being a possible barrier to a "signal". To me, like others on here, it seems implausible for the reasons already given in previous posts. However, as the designer of the experiment, he is perfectly entitled to come up with an explanation as to why it didn't produce a positive result, however spurious it seems at first.

I am sure that as someone who is motivated by proof, supported by repeatable evidence, he will come up with alternative ideas and experimental designs, until he has exhausted all the possibilities, and only then will he take your advice and move on to pruning the roses.

Although this is not cutting edge science, and it all could be downright woo, like all paranormal claims, which by definition, defy existing rational explanations (hoaxes and willful delusions excepted), experimental design is a huge, huge problem, IMHO. If we have any inkling at all as to the cause (perhaps in this case, solely the ideometer effect) then we can only design tests to eliminate that single factor. It is a big problem for anyone suitably qualified, if there is such a thing where dowsing is concerned, let alone an amateur starting effectively, from scratch.

DD has the motivation, the time and the money, and I wish him well in his quest. He may eventually fail miserably, but at least in the spirit of rational investigation and quest for knowledge, he has tried, and is trying very hard.
 
Following failure of the test (which he quite rightly designed himself for the purposes of checking the efficacy of the design) he has come up on the day of failure, with some postulations as to the cause of that failure, citing plywood being a possible barrier to a "signal".
And by doing this, he ignores the fact that the unblinded test showed that plywood was no barrier. Has he ever found an explanation for this? Did he ever understand the need for an unblinded test, and what it is supposed to show?

I suppose that if he subsequently went over the area, plywood would be a barrier, because that is what he expects, so the unblinded test cannot be repeated.
 
DD has the motivation, the time and the money, and I wish him well in his quest. He may eventually fail miserably, but at least in the spirit of rational investigation and quest for knowledge, he has tried, and is trying very hard.

I prefer to think of the experiments as failing to prove their hypotheses. And I prefer to think of DowserDon as succeeding in finding the truth about what's happening when he's dowsing. Alterantively, I'd like to think of him successfully proving a heretofore unknown branch of science, but that seems unlikely, no matter how romantic it sounds.

Ward
 
I prefer to think of the experiments as failing to prove their hypotheses. And I prefer to think of DowserDon as succeeding in finding the truth about what's happening when he's dowsing. Alterantively, I'd like to think of him successfully proving a heretofore unknown branch of science, but that seems unlikely, no matter how romantic it sounds.

Ward

Would agree with all that.

Although many here would argue that DD is in no way following in the footsteps of our great pioneer scientists, he is endowed with the same spirit and desire. Power to his elbow, or should that read "wrists"?:-)
 
I am sure that as someone who is motivated by proof, supported by repeatable evidence, he will come up with alternative ideas and experimental designs, until he has exhausted all the possibilities, and only then will he take your advice and move on to pruning the roses.

Here's the problem. You can't exhaust all possbilities. There will always be something else. Maybe it only works if the atmospheric pressure is below (or above) some amount (or not between two amounts). Maybe it only works when the earth is not within 10 degrees in its orbit of perogee or apogee. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

He will never take our advice, because there will always be an available (but sillier) hypothesis. Since the hypothesis is silly already, he's already broken that barrier and there's nothing to bring him back.
 

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