Cat Fleas!

[Rolfe]

You know, I never come in on these things until it's too late.

Advantage apparently is imidacloprid, which is related to the nicotenergic pesticides.
it's not as safe as the insect growth regulators that are usually applied topically/systemically, but it is relatively safe for mammals at low doses.

Insect nervous systems are sort of like inside-out mammal systems--the parts that make up our central nervous systems are not what makes up the CNS of a bug. it's nifty.

Er - who mentioned Advantage? That's been here for a while and I've used it once or twice to good effect. Maybe another time for the whole story about a couple of the first dogs to be treated with it in this country collapsing in convulsions, one died, huge ruckus, must have been that new flea treatment, then after all the post-mortem results were in it turned out to be metaldehyde poisoning, and the half had not been told as far as the original clinical history was concerned.

Frontline and Stronghold seem to be the other popular ones. I was asking about Advocate, which was launched about a year ago, with some astonishing artwork of enormously imaginative parasites, and seems to kill anything that doesn't have exactly four legs. Apart from tapeworm I think. Roundworms, heartworm, fleas, ticks, lice, sarcops(?), demodex, you name it. Since demodex is a particularly nasty clinical condition which is an absolute bugger to treat, and I'm currently preparing some legal statements in connection with a prosecution of owners who didn't bother to take their puppy to a vet when it had the condition, I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has any hands-on experience of using Advocate to treat demodecosis.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh, Bug Girl, while you're here - any wise thoughs about Program? (Lufenuron) That's the one I use on Caramel, because the six-monthly injections are so easy (every alternate one coincides with his vaccinations anyway), and the method of action just seems so elegant.

Do you think it's possible for fleas to evolve resistance to that one?

Rolfe.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Insect growth regulators are great and generally have very low toxicity in mammals and unfortunately have a low toxicity to adult fleas also. All that means is you have to do something to kill the adult fleas. Also safe and effective is lufenuron which is an oral chitin synthesis inhibitor (Program/Sentinel) but only works really well where all the animals on a property are on it (also need to use an adult flea killer). There is an oral insect growth regulator (methoprene) which theoretically should be safe since it is a juvenile hormone analog but causes some animals to have fairly alarming side effects the first time or two that they take it. They apparently get used to it if you keep giving it to them. The company making it doesn't market to veterinarians because of that. Other products I like for fleas include Advantage, Frontline, Capstar, and Revolution however there are many effective products only they may not be as safe or effective as those products. In this situation by the time the insect growth regulators or chitin synthesis inhibitor has the fleas under control, the kittens will be old enough to use labeled flea control products.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Re: Re: Re: Point of information

Did they tell you if it could treat clinical demodecosis?

Rolfe.

We've just put a dog onto Advocate as maintenance because amitraz didn't clear its Demodex, but that's the first that we've prescribed.

The Bayer people were talking about 80% cure rates for Demodex, which I'll take any day over stinky Aludex shampoos.

 

[Rolfe]

Apart from the very first treatment (when he was hopping with fleas) I've used only Program on Caramel, with just that one dose of Advantage as well at the start. I've never needed an adult flea killer again. He's been on it seven years now, and I only ever saw one flea, once, during his second 6-months on the injections. Of course, he's the only cat on the property. He sleeps on my bed, and I'd flip if there was a breakdown.

Of course, it's useless as an approach to an existing flea problem in kittens though!

I'd still like to know if anyone thinks fleas might be able to evolve resistance to lufenuron.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Point of information

The Bayer people were talking about 80% cure rates for Demodex, which I'll take any day over stinky Aludex shampoos.

Sounds good. Just useful background information for the court case.

Still, I've been hearing about treatments that are "80%" effective for demodecosis for 30 years now, and there's never been anything that was really a good solution.

Rolfe.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Wow! That Advocate stuff is pretty interesting. They haven't tried to market it to me yet but sounds like a great all in one product . Maybe they will add praziquantel to make it the trully single administration multiple parasite control agent.

 

[Soapy Sam]

How do insect growth regulators work?

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Wow! That Advocate stuff is pretty interesting. They haven't tried to market it to me yet but sounds like a great all in one product . Maybe they will add praziquantel to make it the trully single administration multiple parasite control agent.

Funny you shpuld say that. I was told I couldn't be told, but to wait until the autumn for some new news! You heard it here first, but I didn't tell you.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

Hmm...my vet was unhappy that Banzai had been given Advocate before his cross-country trip. He felt it was overkill. Maybe he's getting kickbacks from Frontline (kidding!).

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

How do insect growth regulators work?

They REGULATE the GROWTH of INSECTS.

Well, d'uh!!



As I recall they stop the insect from making the switch from larva to pupa so they become great big larvae and run into a developmental dead end. But I actually can't remember more than that.

I sold a lot of Program when it came out, but with the appearance of adulticides that really work I sort of gave up on it- if you have a problem today you want to kill the adults, but then why bother changing to Program afterwards or using it as simultaneously.

Edited: I'm getting my Program (chitin and all that) muddled with my growth regulators. Just to make it clear, Program is not a growth regulator, it is an inhibitor of chitin synthesis- see later post.

 

[Rolfe]

Funny you shpuld say that. I was told I couldn't be told, but to wait until the autumn for some new news! You heard it here first, but I didn't tell you.

My God, what do you think the adverts will look like by then?

Bug Girl, answer that nice Soapy Sam man now, will you? (It's something to do with preventing the synthesis of chitin. The active ingredient is absorbed into the cat's fatty tissue and released slowly over six months. During that time, any flea that bites the cat becomes sterile. If all pets in a household are done, it stops the flea population dead in its tracks. Theoretically a cat can still pick up an adult flea while he's outside, and so it's not a perfect solution to flea allergy dermatitis, but as I said Caramel doesn't suffer from that and I've only ever caught one flea on him ever since the Program was started, and that was very early in the process, so I'm thinking it works. And I know that the orange heap slumbering on my bed isn't carrying any chemical insecticides in his coat, which I like.)

Rolfe.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Hormonal then. I wondered if it would be something along these lines.

[ Wild Speculation]

Could such a treatment , interacting with a "fortuitous" mutation in a bug, conceivably result in a neotenous species capable of breeding in a juvenile form?

ETA- Nb. Said mutation may already be in the insect genome, awaiting a chance at reactivation.

I'm sort of wondering why some insects evolved these multi-stage life cycles in the first place and what might be undone by reversing same.

[/Wild speculation].

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Maybe he's getting kickbacks from Frontline (kidding!).

All the reps want to buy your soul. My bad memory and disorganisation keep me safe. I can never remember what deal I've agreed to with the rep, carry on prescribing want I want to and don't return their phone calls.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

My God, what do you think the adverts will look like by then?

Bug Girl, answer that nice Soapy Sam man now, will you? (It's something to do with preventing the synthesis of chitin. .

The larva needs to make chitin to make the 'egg tooth' that gets them out of the egg. So they're trapped and die. Ha, Ha!

 

[Rolfe]

with the appearance of adulticides that really work I sort of gave up on it- if you have a problem today you want to kill the adults, but then why bother changing to Program afterwards or using it as simultaneously.

Well, I see your point, but I think I just admire the elegance of the mode of action. And I like the absence of any insecticides about the house.

I gave Caramel his first Program with his primary vaccination course, when I first got him, as a flea-ridden three-month kitten (perfectly healthy, it was just a hot summer and the fleas hadn't been on him long). I used Advantage once at the same time, and once three months later, and that's been that. I like it. But of course, I can give the injections myself. It's a lot more inconvenient if you have to take the cat to the vet every six months, so I can well imagine that the spot-ons sell better.

Rolfe.

PS. Poor Rolfe was a martyr to flea allergy dermatitis (miliary eczema), and while I performed a miracle cure on it when I adopted him by spraying him with Nuvan Top and immediately moving him into my flea-free flat, by the last couple of years of his life Nuvan Top was useless as the fleas had evolved resistance. He'd have been in clover with the new preparations.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Sounds Machiavellian to me. I prefer a rolled up newspaper. This has the added advantage that you get to swipe the cat as well.

I also can't help wondering, given the similarity of Hox genes in Drosophila and humans, what the chitin producing genes do in man. (Or cat, for that matter).

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Point of information

Sounds good. Just useful background information for the court case.

Still, I've been hearing about treatments that are "80%" effective for demodecosis for 30 years now, and there's never been anything that was really a good solution.

Rolfe.

Presumably because the reason for Demodex is a knackered immune system. The bug itself is really just a commensal.

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Point of information

Presumably because the reason for Demodex is a knackered immune system. The bug itself is really just a commensal.

True, o half-hairy one. (You really do know how to cheer people up....)

Rolfe.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

It's a lot more inconvenient if you have to take the cat to the vet every six months, so I can well imagine that the spot-ons sell better.

Rolfe.

Which brings up the subject of pet shop spot-on products. I've asked a couple of our (real) drug company reps, who didn't know, but really ought to ask the actual manufacturers of the useless products, why don't they work? I can guarantee that every time I've been told by an owner that they have used a pet shop spot-on, their pet has been riddled with fleas. The use of the spot-on just tells me that the problem is so bad that even the owner has recognised it.

I just don't understand how they get their marketing authorisation (and avoid the men with clipboards from Trading Standards).

Do you know?

(I'm off to bed, so I'll pick up any answers tomorrow)