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Carl Sagan refuted

direlect

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These are refutations of excerpts I have taken from Carl Sagan's books:
Carl Sagan said:
In our earliest history, so far as we can tell, individuals held to an allegiance toward their immediate tribal group, which may have numbered no more than ten or twenty individuals, all of whom were related by consanguinity. As time went on, the need for cooperative behaviour--in the hunting of large animals or large herds, in agriculture, and in the development of cities--forced human beings into larger and larger groups. The group that was identified with, the tribal unit, enlarged at each stage of evolution. Today, a particular instant in the 4.5-billion-year history of Earth and in the several-million-year history of mankind, most human beings owe their primary allegiance to the nation-state (although some of the most dangerous political problems still arise from tribal conflicts involving smaller population units).

This suggests to me a need for radical population reduction, as opposed to a preparatory statement for the need to "work with what we have" in order to instigate a Utopic Disneyland. The presuppositions underlying this and the entire statement as a whole are only applicable to a modern, economic, and anthrocentric worldview. It tries to take itself out of its own natural environmental context with the incumbent influential factors present upon it, and renders itself dysfunctional based on this myopic viewpoint. Such a narrow focus as "pan-humanism" can only ever hope to have very limited and narrow success.

Carl Sagan said:
Many visionary leaders have imagined a time when the allegiance of an individual human being is not to his particular nation-state, religion, race, or economic group, but to mankind as a whole; when the benefit to a human being of another sex, race, religion, or political persuasion ten thousand miles away is as precious to us as to our neighbour or our brother. The trend is in this direction, but it is aganozingly slow. There is a serious question whether such a global self-identification of mankind can be achieved before we destroy ourselves with the technological forces our intelligence has unleashed.

Doomsday predictions. Why is human variation and difference such a problem in this worldview? I guess multiculturalism does not work quite well enough for Carl Sagan's purposes? What about the rest of the world and all the other billions of species which seem to be functioning just fine (and have been for longer than humanity's tenure on the planet) without needing to draw themselves into large undifferentiated collectives of no individual or inter-species variance? Why do away with all the achievements which have been created by creatures of the humankind throughout their history, so that a modern society in its infinitely short-sighted wisdom can have free reign and havoc with the world? First, you must define where humanity is going, before you can assert the best path for getting there. Pan-humanism does not do this.

Carl Sagan said:
I believe the difficulty we all experience is extending our identification horizons. Human history is filled with monstrous cases of tiny differences -- in skin pigmentation, or abtruse theological speculation, or manner of dress and hair style--being the acuse of harassment, enslavement, and murder.

So we must obliterate these tiny differences in order to do -- what? For what purpose? The reasons and ulterior motives behind the so-called "necessity of pan-humanism" have not been defined. Until they are, this is nothing more than grand-standing rhetorical blather.

Aside from this, grand-standing upon one single philosophical issue (in this case, pan-humanism) inevitably leaves out and conveniently forgets about the multitude of extraneous issues which are not solved by adopting this point of view. Ecocide? Global warming? National debt and deficits? Political corruption? Widespread deforestation of irreplaceable natural ecosystems? Overpopulation? Destruction of coral reefs? Rampant crime? Resource depletion? The water wars we will soon begin fighting? What about the people who refuse to adopt this belief? Do you actually think that wars will stop being fought upon economic grounds, which is the only factor this ideology seems to concern itself with, beyond trying to stamp out the incidence of violence based upon ethnic and religious discrimination? Have you even thought about the effects this would have upon religion itself?

The illusion of "progress" is a sham.

This totalitarianism of Carl Sagan's, based on wiping out historical differences among variant human populations in order for purely sociological issues to dominate human discourse at the expense of countless exterior issues of arguably greater import than how humans choose to mate, is hilariously short-sighted, and doomed to utter failure.
 
You're making a mighty leap from what he's commenting on (the evolution of human culture). He seems to be advocating that we should move towards recognizing each other, regardless of our differences as human beings. What's wrong there?
 
You're making a mighty leap from what he's commenting on (the evolution of human culture). He seems to be advocating that we should move towards recognizing each other, regardless of our differences as human beings. What's wrong there?
It is based on the ahistorical and untenable assumption that 'humanity' has innate value. Where does this universalist feeling come from? I believe it has its roots in the belief that all men are brothers because they were created by the Lord in His image. This concern with 'humanity' is a naive Western prejudice and the invention of 'mankind' as a classification was simply the most recent refinement of that prejudice.

I have discussed this in more detail at my forum (see sig).
 
Want to give us an actual link?

Want to identify which books those are from?

Also, want to not run away from your GLORIOUS FUTURE?

And lastly, want to not make stuff up about what Sagan was writing?
 
This is simply an excercise in putting words in Sagan's mouth.

If the first excerpt "suggests... a need for radical population reduction," that's your problem, not Carl Sagan's. He never suggested such a thing. If you think the third excerpt recommends obliterating tiny differences among people, you've misunderstood it at a very basic level.

Far from refuting Carl Sagan, you apparently aren't even up to the task of reading him.
 
It is based on the ahistorical and untenable assumption that 'humanity' has innate value. Where does this universalist feeling come from? I believe it has its roots in the belief that all men are brothers because they were created by the Lord in His image. This concern with 'humanity' is a naive Western prejudice and the invention of 'mankind' as a classification was simply the most recent refinement of that prejudice.

evidence?
 
Want to give us an actual link?
After I find it.

Want to identify which books those are from?
The Cosmic Connection and Broca's Brain

Also, want to not run away from your GLORIOUS FUTURE?
That would first require something formidable enough to run away from.

And lastly, want to not make stuff up about what Sagan was writing?
I am not making anything up. Check out page 43 of The Cosmic Connection, for instance.
 
This is simply an excercise in putting words in Sagan's mouth.

If the first excerpt "suggests... a need for radical population reduction,"
You misunderstand. That is precisely what Sagan is not saying. He suggests working with that we have. I suggest a population reduction.

If you think the third excerpt recommends obliterating tiny differences among people, you've misunderstood it at a very basic level.
Have you read any of his works?
 
...

That would first require something formidable enough to run away from.
...

I believe Earthbound made yet another solid post questioning your sources. Edit: Sorry, not necessarily your source, but your information on neuroanatomy.
 
No, no, no. You misunderstand. That is precisely what Sagan is not saying. And the facts that he describes suggests that to me.

Have you read any of his works?


So you are admitting to putting words in his mouth?
 
Not at all. I am not saying that he is suggesting that, I am saying that the facts he describes suggest the need for population reduction to me.

Which isn't you refuting Sagan at all. If you were to actually be refuting him, he would have to make such a claim, which he did not.

So yes, you have put words in his mouth.
 
Not at all. I am not saying that he is suggesting that, I am saying that the facts he describes suggest the need for population reduction to me.

The facts he's presenting suggest that we aren't evolving fast enough to out live our technology.....

No where does he suggest that we need to cut back on the number of people.

Sorry ;)
 
Which was not intended in and of itself to be a refutation.

Your OP title says you are refuting Sagan. Either you are being intellectually dishonest, or you are vacuous. Please tell me which.

Quote me and demonstrate this.




Okay, how about this:

This totalitarianism of Carl Sagan's, based on wiping out historical differences among variant human populations in order for purely sociological issues to dominate human discourse at the expense of countless exterior issues of arguably greater import than how humans choose to mate, is hilariously short-sighted, and doomed to utter failure.

You are suggesting here that Carl Sagan was advocating some form of totalitarianism. Show where Sagan ever said that.
 

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