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Cont: Cancel culture IRL Part 2

Japanese internment

Dr. Keith said:
Was Internment of US citizens with Japanese heritage not conceal culture?
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link The Japanese citizens did not do or say anything; it was just a blanket policy. Therefore, I would say that it was not cancel culture, but it was very, very wrong and illiberal.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
link The Japanese citizens did not do or say anything; it was just a blanket policy. Therefore, I would say that it was not cancel culture, but it was very, very wrong and illiberal.
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Ah, you think cancel culture only applies to speech? Wasn’t Bill Cosby one of the earliest targets of cancel culture? I don’t think it was about his bad jokes. Apparently it had more to do with his sweaters, or raping. I can’t recall the details.
 
speech or actions

Dr. Keith said:
Ah, you think cancel culture only applies to speech? Wasn’t Bill Cosby one of the earliest targets of cancel culture? I don’t think it was about his bad jokes. Apparently it had more to do with his sweaters, or raping. I can’t recall the details.
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It is usually about a segment of society's reacting to an individual's or a group's speech or actions. The Japanese internment was also a government action (although my skimming of the link I provided suggested to me that the legal aspects of the situation were more complex than I had been aware, involving interpretation of executive orders, etc.). Bill Cosby might make for a good example to discuss, but I don't know enough to do so ATM.
 
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Chris_Halkides said:
It is usually about a segment of society's reacting to an individual's or a group's speech or actions. The Japanese internment was also a government action (although my skimming of the link I provided suggested to me that the legal aspects of the situation were more complex than I had been aware, involving interpretation of executive orders, etc.). Bill Cosby might make for a good example to discuss, but I don't know enough to do so ATM.
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Not to switch gears too fast but, what segment of society reacted to a groups speech or actions in the cases of music being pulled from performances? Was there a social call for those changes to be made? If not, why would it be cancel culture rather than just canceled?
 
johnny karate said:
Yeah, no kidding. If the effort is to make the term "cancel culture" as meaningless as possible, it's been a rousing success.
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I find that is often the case with new terms that start on or hit the internet.

At some point, they may have had a useful meaning but once everyone and their grandpa has heard it the usage gets so broad that the term is made pointless.

See virtue signaling.
 
playing recorders

Dr. Keith said:
Not to switch gears too fast but, what segment of society reacted to a groups speech or actions in the cases of music being pulled from performances? Was there a social call for those changes to be made? If not, why would it be cancel culture rather than just canceled?
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You are indeed skating along through many topics IMHO, perhaps too many too quickly. I already indicated in comment #1502 that what the Cardiff Philharmonic did was on the borderline of cancel culture, and I later indicated that the question was not a hill on which I was willing to die. A spokesperson from the orchestra said, "We are aware that, whatever decision we made, it would not go down well, so we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.” I also read that "Members of the orchestra were also said to have been among those who had voiced reservations about playing Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture..." which implies that there were others outside of the orchestra. What I don't understand is why you could not use Google yourself to find quotes such as these.

I can accept but not agree with their decision not to play the 1812 Overture for reasons that I previously explained, but not to play his Symphony N. 2 was more difficult for me to understand, and Sleeping Beauty even more so. "'Tchaikovsky adored Ukraine,' said Mr Suchet, who has also written a biography of the Swan Lake composer.

'He frequently stayed on his sister's estate there, and at the estate of his patron Nadezhda von Meck. He would be weeping at what is happening. Not just a useless gesture, but wrong.'

British comedian Mark Steel took a more humorous approach to lampoon the move. "It’s not enough to ban a Tchaikovsky concert. We should scribble all over his music so the notes come out wrong, and play recorders badly wherever he’s being played. That will teach him not to write ballet music in a country that will invade somewhere 130 years after he died."
 
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Chris_Halkides said:
You are indeed skating along through many topics IMHO, perhaps too many too quickly. I already indicated in comment #1502 that what the Cardiff Philharmonic did was on the borderline of cancel culture, and I later indicated that the question was not a hill on which I was willing to die. A spokesperson from the orchestra said, "We are aware that, whatever decision we made, it would not go down well, so we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.” I also read that "Members of the orchestra were also said to have been among those who had voiced reservations about playing Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture..." which implies that there were others outside of the orchestra. What I don't understand is why you could not use Google yourself to find quotes such as these.

I can accept but not agree with their decision not to play the 1812 Overture for reasons that I previously explained, but not to play his Symphony N. 2 was more difficult for me to understand, and Sleeping Beauty even more so. "'Tchaikovsky adored Ukraine,' said Mr Suchet, who has also written a biography of the Swan Lake composer.

'He frequently stayed on his sister's estate there, and at the estate of his patron Nadezhda von Meck. He would be weeping at what is happening. Not just a useless gesture, but wrong.'

British comedian Mark Steel took a more humorous approach to lampoon the move. "It’s not enough to ban a Tchaikovsky concert. We should scribble all over his music so the notes come out wrong, and play recorders badly wherever he’s being played. That will teach him not to write ballet music in a country that will invade somewhere 130 years after he died."
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This post is proof that people who complain about cancel culture just want to cry about something. No substance, just pure old whining. Imagine investing a lot of energy to complain about some music which won't be played temporarily.

Get a hobby or something?
 
EaglePuncher said:
This post is proof that people who complain about cancel culture just want to cry about something. No substance, just pure old whining. Imagine investing a lot of energy to complain about some music which won't be played temporarily.

Get a hobby or something?
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And the music is temporarily not being played at a certain event at a certain time, but still remains widely available pretty much everywhere else, for pretty much everyone.

It's the equivalent of claiming that a television show was cancelled because the cable went out in your home and you were briefly unable to watch it.
 
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Also I'd love to see a Venn Diagram of people who are angry that one showing of one classical music piece got "canceled" and of people who were ever going to see it in the first place.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Also I'd love to see a Venn Diagram of people who are angry that one showing of one classical music piece got "canceled" and of people who were ever going to see it in the first place.
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It is my understanding that the concert-goers denied seeing a particular performance will be "harmed" in some way, so I'm sure what is happening here is an outpouring of empathy for the victims of this terrible tragedy.

I think a telethon is also being planned.
 
johnny karate said:
And the music is temporarily not being played at a certain event at a certain time, but still remains widely available pretty much everywhere else, for pretty much everyone.

It's the equivalent of claiming that a television show was cancelled because the cable went out in your home and you were briefly unable to watch it.
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Yeah, the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it gets...
 
Chris_Halkides said:
Why do you say that?
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Because in reading this thread I have learned that cancel culture is a social media phenomenon that only recently came into existence and is terrible. This is a problem with the kids these days.

Not social media driven means not cancel culture.

You are trying to lump everything that you think is wrong into this umbrella term like a politician claiming his extramarital affair was caused by critical race theory.
 
trigger warning

Dr. Keith said:
Because in reading this thread I have learned that cancel culture is a social media phenomenon that only recently came into existence and is terrible. This is a problem with the kids these days.

Not social media driven means not cancel culture.

You are trying to lump everything that you think is wrong into this umbrella term like a politician claiming his extramarital affair was caused by critical race theory.
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I think social media facilitates c_____ c_____, but I don't see it as absolutely necessary.
 
Going to step back and point things out from a more abstract and meta level. (Call it 'post modern' if you want to feel smart without engaging with it.)

It is easier to identify working backwards from a conclusion due to identity politics when it's from the extremes. One can tell that for example the reason right wingers are calling people opposed to their oppression of LGBTQ people 'groomers' is because that is what would have to be true to rationalize their self-identity as 'the good side'. It isn't difficult to tell their morality isn't based on good or bad actions, but actions are good or bad based on who does them. This allows them to support a fake business man real rapist moron from New York as a moral political leader who will take down corruption. He's one of them and therefore there is a pedophile vampire sex cult that must exist (or whatever completely bankrupt idea mastectomies this week). Cut and past to a much lesser degree with the extreme left (currently).

It's more difficult to spot when the identity is 'centrist' or 'rational' or 'fair'.

But that's what happens a lot. It's why so many 'in the middle' will support crap ideas with little to no basis in reality along with the right wing right now. They've made their identity the 'fair' person but their understanding of that is limited in some way that drives cargo cult or theatrical practices. The truth is 'in the middle' so there must be faults on 'both sides'. There at very least have to be risks to both sides. The problem is that this becomes more and more obvious the more one side goes off the deep end. The rationalizations become more and more unreasonable in the effort to appear reasonable. 'Yeah by any reasonable measure the wrongful use of socioeconomic forces is far more damaging and powerful on the right side (again, currently) but it could be someday that on the left.' Or 'this specific kind specially tailored to only apply to that dynamic where the left might be more visible is worse on the left.'

Because if one came to ones 'center' ideas honestly, as the right has become more unhinged you'd have to recognize that you're now on the left. Someone who is a moderate becomes the left as the right moves right. Someone who makes it their identity will find any excuse to tell themselves, and virtue signal to everyone, that they're 'an enlightened centrist'. They will come up with what would have to be true for their identity to be static.

Thus Disney not employing an unstable bigot and some music being put on hold for one performance counts but laws that would put people in jail for up to life for providing healthcare to trans kids doesn't matter.

It is choosing the set to get the conclusion one wants. Texas Sharpshooter for the centrist.
 
on harm

tyr_13 said:
Thus Disney not employing an unstable bigot and some music being put on hold for one performance counts but laws that would put people in jail for up to life for providing healthcare to trans kids doesn't matter.

It is choosing the set to get the conclusion one wants. Texas Sharpshooter for the centrist.
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Why should classifying or not classifying an incident as cancel culture be based on the amount of harm done, as opposed to what was done and how it was done, as for instance the definition quoted in #1475.

I chose to bring up some incidents not because they best fit a definition or involved the greatest harm but because they were particularly poorly reasoned or produced an especially risible result. I did and do think that discussing the harm done is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
EDT
A current thread on the death penalty might be worth thinking about in this context. The cases of several executed individuals have been discussed; for some of these individuals a substantial case for innocence can be made. Regarding one additional crime, the individual served almost sixty years. Assuming for the sake of argument that one of them is factually innocent, this is surely great harm. Yet I never thought for a moment to call it cancel culture, and I still don't think that such a term applies.
 
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Chris_Halkides said:
, as for instance the definition quoted in #1475.
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What exactly is the problem with withdrawing support?

Is it the fact that sometimes you don't like it and you need a dull, generalizing term which implies that "Hysterical SJWs made it a culture to withdraw support from certain persons or businesses but most of the time, the withdrawal is not justified because I say so and also hysterical SJWs are always just virtue signalling!"
 
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