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Call them what they are: Terrorists!

Leif Roar:
"Hmmm. I was under the impression that most of the suiced bombs in Iraq was targetted either at US forces, Iraqi police or security forces or the civilian administration. I can't say I'm aware of many that out and out targetted ordinary Iraqi civilians."

Leif, you are quite right in your impression.

The overwhelming bulk of attacks are directed at coalition troops, as this graphic drawn from statistics in a report by the Centre for Strategic and International Studies shows.
http://www.lefthook.org/Charts/CSIS.jpg


Similarly, this graph from the New York Times shows exactly the same thing:
http://www.lefthook.org/Charts/NYTimes.jpg

It is true that attacks have fluctuated in their frequency and intensity, but the overwhelming bulk of them are always directed at coalition forces.
(The second graph is difficult to see, it helps if you copy and paste it onto a word document, then enlarge...it becomes quite clear then).
 
Need a scorecard ---

To try and keep track of who is a terrorist and who is a militant and who is an insurgent and who is an offender and who is who ---
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/600597.html

  • Because they have not been able to confirm the existence of a "central command" that plans and carries out attacks, and attacks around the world are being attributed to specific terror groups that give themselves exotic names but cannot be tracked down, intelligence agencies have begun to argue about the most effective way to fight terror.
 
demon said:
Leif Roar:
"Hmmm. I was under the impression that most of the suiced bombs in Iraq was targetted either at US forces, Iraqi police or security forces or the civilian administration. I can't say I'm aware of many that out and out targetted ordinary Iraqi civilians."

Leif, you are quite right in your impression.

The overwhelming bulk of attacks are directed at coalition troops, as this graphic drawn from statistics in a report by the Centre for Strategic and International Studies shows.

I don't know the breakdown myself, but you can't conclude Leif was originally correct from that graph. Leif's statement was about suicide bombs. The graphs you showed, as far as I can tell, include all attacks, and so should also cover non-suicide bombing such as mortar attacks, snipers, IEDs, etc. Mortar and sniper attacks are certainly directed primarily against military targets, and IED attacks probably are as well. But since those sorts of attacks are more frequent (numerically) though often resulting in far fewer casualties, it's still quite possible that suicide bombings are directed primarily against civilian targets. There's also a bit of ambiguity in how to evaluate this: if a suicide bomber kills 2 marines and 20 Iraqi civilians, how should we categorize it? If you count by number of targets, you may also arrive at a different number than if you count by casualties, since civilians are softer targets than the military and it's easier to kill large numbers of them. I don't have the numbers, but I suspect that more Iraqi civilians have been killed by suicide bombers than coalition troops.
 
Ziggurat:
"I don't know the breakdown myself, but you can't conclude Leif was originally correct from that graph. Leif's statement was about suicide bombs. The graphs you showed, as far as I can tell, include all attacks, and so should also cover non-suicide bombing such as mortar attacks, snipers, IEDs, etc. Mortar and sniper attacks are certainly directed primarily against military targets, and IED attacks probably are as well. But since those sorts of attacks are more frequent (numerically) though often resulting in far fewer casualties, it's still quite possible that suicide bombings are directed primarily against civilian targets. There's also a bit of ambiguity in how to evaluate this: if a suicide bomber kills 2 marines and 20 Iraqi civilians, how should we categorize it? If you count by number of targets, you may also arrive at a different number than if you count by casualties, since civilians are softer targets than the military and it's easier to kill large numbers of them. I don't have the numbers, but I suspect that more Iraqi civilians have been killed by suicide bombers than coalition troops."


Fair points. It is hard to come by good source material for this.
 
Ziggurat said:
That's a cute bit of revisionist history, Orwell. This second quote is from 1983. The Taliban, as a political entity, formed around 1994, quite a bit later. The insertion of "[The Taliban]" is basically a lie - did you not realize this, or did you not care? It's too bad you included it: your first link had pretty much all the criticism you needed to make your point, your second link is basically superfluous.

I agree that the insertion was pointless, but I wasn't the one who did it. The rest of the link (I was interested in the thing about Afghanistan day) stands and is, as far as I know, accurate. Because I knew that the link wasn't above reproach, I included the other one.

1980s Soviet and Afghan government troops fight against mujahedin guerillas backed by Pakistan, the US, and Saudi Arabia. Between the years 1979 and 1992, more than a fifth of Afghanistan's population leaves the country searching for safety in Iran and Pakistan.
1989 The Soviets withdraw from Afghanistan. A total of six million residents fled the country during the soviet occupation.
1992 The mujahedin coalition captures Kabul. The coalition soon disintegrates.
1994 The Taliban, a Pakistan-backed militia of ultra-orthodox Sunnit Muslims launches military operations along the Pakistani border and western Afghanistan.
1996 The Taliban captures Kabul.

http://www.peace-action.org/camp/justice/qfafghan.html

As far as I know, the mujahedin that fought the soviets included the people who later formed the Taliban (along with other groups), just like the Iraqi insurgents are probably comprised of different groups only united by their opposition to the US occupation. More importantly to the point I was trying to make, generally speaking, the methods and ideology of the mujahedin were not very different from the methods and ideology of the present day Iraqi insurgents. Sometimes, we're even talking about the same people! But back then, they were called "freedom fighters".
 
Skeptic said:
I dunno, Orwell.

The democrats and others might one day have to negotiate and make a deal with Republicans or Christians, but that doesn't stop some of them from calling the latter "right wing fanatics", "fundamentalist morons", etc. Also, as long as the Taliban & co. were attacking the USSR, they (as American allies) were despised by the bien pensant people as "heating up the cold war", being part of American-planned "agresion", etc.

It isn't as if using emotional, loaded language is considered a bad idea per se by progressives; on the contrary--as long as it insults the right kind of bad people, such as conservatives, or some government which opposed Marxist "revolutionary" thugs with its own thugs, it is not only permitted but encouraged. It's only the use of emotional, loaded language against the USA's enemies that is discouraged as "simplistic"; and the more murderous and fanatical those enemies are, the more shrill the demand that one should not describe them as fanatical murderers in order not to "judge" them.

The eiptome of this attitude is, of course, Howard Dean, who claimed a Republican senator "should be in jail", but refused to say Osama bin Laden is guilty before he is convicted in trial. (Taking Dean's logic to its logical conclusion, no suicide bomber should ever be called guilty of anything, since by definition they cannot be put on trial for their crimes. Neither, for that matter, should we emotionally prejudge Hitler or Stalin as "evil" or "guilty"--they were never on trial, were they? But I digress...)

This attitude, of course, is just what one would expect from those who believe in the two "progressive" dogmas, namely, 1). The USA is in the main a force of evil and opression in the world due to its "capitalist imperialist system", and (more importantly) 2). that being "nonjudgemental" and devoid of moral outrage is the highest moral stand one can possibly achieve; the more horrified and outraged "unelightened" people feel at some enormity, the more virtuous one is for refusing to be outraged, shocked, or "judgemental" about those who did it.

Moral flatness, usually a sign of psychopathy, is considered by the enlightened crowd as a sign that one is an "independent thinker", not "controlled by irrational emotions" or part of the "mob" which is being "bainwashed" by the (evil USA) government, which is using the "tragedy" for propgadna purposes. "Tragedy,of course, is not used by them in the Shakespearian sense, but in the sense something bad that nobody in particular is to blame for (except, perhaps, some "root cause" which usually has to do with US imperialism or zionism).

What puzzles me is that this moral flatness, so devoutly wished for by some people, is totally fake: when I tell such people that, if I were to take their pronouncements literally, they are obviously psychopathic as they have no moral guide, they tell me, in outrage, that they privately feel as much rage and anger and loss as everybody else, they just won't let it "affect their judgement."

So they are not psychopathic--they do not lack a moral sense; they just refuse (or pretend to refuse) to use it in public. Making moral judgements has replaced what kinky sex used to be: something that isn't so much bad in itself, but still embarrasing, something not to be done in public, something you wouldn't want your neioghbors to know you enjoy doing.
Great post skeptic.
 
Skeptic said:
I dunno, Orwell.

The democrats and others might one day have to negotiate and make a deal with Republicans or Christians, but that doesn't stop some of them from calling the latter "right wing fanatics", "fundamentalist morons", etc. Also, as long as the Taliban & co. were attacking the USSR, they (as American allies) were despised by the bien pensant people as "heating up the cold war", being part of American-planned "agresion", etc.

It isn't as if using emotional, loaded language is considered a bad idea per se by progressives; on the contrary--as long as it insults the right kind of bad people, such as conservatives, or some government which opposed Marxist "revolutionary" thugs with its own thugs, it is not only permitted but encouraged. It's only the use of emotional, loaded language against the USA's enemies that is discouraged as "simplistic"; and the more murderous and fanatical those enemies are, the more shrill the demand that one should not describe them as fanatical murderers in order not to "judge" them.

The eiptome of this attitude is, of course, Howard Dean, who claimed a Republican senator "should be in jail", but refused to say Osama bin Laden is guilty before he is convicted in trial. (Taking Dean's logic to its logical conclusion, no suicide bomber should ever be called guilty of anything, since by definition they cannot be put on trial for their crimes. Neither, for that matter, should we emotionally prejudge Hitler or Stalin as "evil" or "guilty"--they were never on trial, were they? But I digress...)

This attitude, of course, is just what one would expect from those who believe in the two "progressive" dogmas, namely, 1). The USA is in the main a force of evil and opression in the world due to its "capitalist imperialist system", and (more importantly) 2). that being "nonjudgemental" and devoid of moral outrage is the highest moral stand one can possibly achieve; the more horrified and outraged "unelightened" people feel at some enormity, the more virtuous one is for refusing to be outraged, shocked, or "judgemental" about those who did it.

Moral flatness, usually a sign of psychopathy, is considered by the enlightened crowd as a sign that one is an "independent thinker", not "controlled by irrational emotions" or part of the "mob" which is being "bainwashed" by the (evil USA) government, which is using the "tragedy" for propgadna purposes. "Tragedy,of course, is not used by them in the Shakespearian sense, but in the sense something bad that nobody in particular is to blame for (except, perhaps, some "root cause" which usually has to do with US imperialism or zionism).

What puzzles me is that this moral flatness, so devoutly wished for by some people, is totally fake: when I tell such people that, if I were to take their pronouncements literally, they are obviously psychopathic as they have no moral guide, they tell me, in outrage, that they privately feel as much rage and anger and loss as everybody else, they just won't let it "affect their judgement."

So they are not psychopathic--they do not lack a moral sense; they just refuse (or pretend to refuse) to use it in public. Making moral judgements has replaced what kinky sex used to be: something that isn't so much bad in itself, but still embarrasing, something not to be done in public, something you wouldn't want your neioghbors to know you enjoy doing.

Ok, ignoring the fact that your post is a huge "Tu Quoque", I should point out that I don't care about american "liberal vs. conservatives" in-fights, and that I personally don't use the kind of language that you are complaining about. I just don't like propaganda much, I don't like it when it's comming from the left, and I like it even less when it comes from the right. See, I do have an ideological bias, but I try not to be blinded by it. :p
 
Orwell said:


The mujahedin that fought the soviets included the people who later formed the Taliban (along with other groups), juts like the Iraqi insurgents are probably comprised of different groups only united by their opposition to the US occupation. More importantly to the point I was trying to make, generally speaking, the methods and ideology of the mujahedin were not very different from the methods and ideology of the present day Iraqi insurgents.

Are you suggesting that back then civilions and diplomats were targetted? Do you think that the ration of Soviets/civilions was the same more or less?
 
Ed said:
Are you suggesting that back then civilions and diplomats were targetted? Do you think that the ration of Soviets/civilions was the same more or less?

Of course civilians were targeted! The Afghan conflict started as a civil war! Those are the kinds of wars that usually are the most deadly to civilians. And then, when the Soviets left, the mujahedin started to fight among thmeselves... In the same proportion? I don't know. I don't even know for sure in what proportion civilians are targeted in Iraq!
 
Ed said:
Are you suggesting that back then civilions and diplomats were targetted? Do you think that the ration of Soviets/civilions was the same more or less?
I don't know whether the Afghan insurgency against the Soviets targeted civilian (not old enough). The military/civilian ratio was almost certainly higher though, if nothing else because the Iraqi insurgency fights in an urban environment, while the Afghan insurgency probably fought largely from the mountains which would make a direct comparison meaningless.
 
Oh, Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. Did the Soviets have free elections with a massive turnout? Did the Soviets invest billions and billions in infrastructure projects and schools and hospitals? You pointed out that 6 MM people fled Afghanistan under the Soviets -- more still left during the taliban's period of control. Which way are the refugees flowing now, into or out of Iraq? Do you know that more Iraqis believe their country is moving in the right direction than Americans believe America is? Do you imagine that was true of Afghanistan under the Soviets? Did tens of thousands apply for the Afghanistan police force?

It's becoming increasingly difficult not to think that maybe the MSM and the western left are even bigger enemies to success in Iraq than the terrorists themselves.
 
manny said:
Oh, Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. Did the Soviets have free elections with a massive turnout? Did the Soviets invest billions and billions in infrastructure projects and schools and hospitals? You pointed out that 6 MM people fled Afghanistan under the Soviets -- more still left during the taliban's period of control. Which way are the refugees flowing now, into or out of Iraq? Do you know that more Iraqis believe their country is moving in the right direction than Americans believe America is? Do you imagine that was true of Afghanistan under the Soviets? Did tens of thousands apply for the Afghanistan police force?

It's becoming increasingly difficult not to think that maybe the MSM and the western left are even bigger enemies to success in Iraq than the terrorists themselves.

Could you please calm down and start reading the thread from the beggining? If you bother to do that, you will notice that nobody intentionally made a direct parallel between the soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the US occupation of Iraq. I remarked that today's "terrorists" were, in some cases, yesterday's "freedom fighters". We were strictly talking about the language used to describe the Iraqi "insurgents". Also, if you read the article I linked, that soviet/US parallel is talked about, but in measured terms specifically relevant to the military situation. As far as I can tell, there are no heavy value judgements in it. If you disagree, please tell me why!
 
Orwell said:

Not bloody likely. From the article:

"I was in Afghanistan as the last Russians left in 1988, departing from their heavily guarded garrisons and quite fearful of being attacked on the way out. By then, the Soviets had managed to do just about everything wrong, having killed more than a million Afghans and turned millions more into refugees. The Soviets had become the enemies of Islam. That they spent billions to modernize Afghanistan and win over Afghans -- soldiers were still tossing candy to kids as they pulled out of Kabul -- meant nothing in the end."

There's been a net return of refugees TO Iraq since our invasion, not an outflow of refugees. If that ever changes, it will be an indication that things are indeed going wrong. As long as that isn't happening, it's a pretty good indication that our occupation isn't anything like the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

"The United States starts its occupation in a much stronger position. The Soviets, after all, were supporting a widely disliked communist Afghan government, while the Americans are offering democracy and reconstruction, which many Iraqis say they want. But both began their occupations convinced that the local population broadly supported them [/B]or, in the case of the Soviets[/B], that the locals would be cowed into submission." (emphasis mine)

This reminds me of an old joke:
Q: What do elephants and grapes have in common?
A: They're both purple. Except for the elephant.
Not a particluarly funny joke, but that's essentially the argument the author is making in this paragraph. The US and the Soviets were similar in that both expected support from the population. Except the soviets thought that they could force it from the population by oppression. That's more than a little bit of difference, that difference is probably more important than the superficial similarity.

"While it's easy to feel that events are spinning out of control in Iraq, that hasn't really happened in Afghanistan. Granted, there is a guerrilla insurrection underway -- against the American forces and the Karzai government -- but it is having less success in disrupting development and inflicting military casualties. Afghanistan is one and a half times larger than Iraq and has several million more people, but it is more stable with 15,000 American and international troops than Iraq is with more than 140,000 American and 12,000 British soldiers. I think this is because the former Taliban militants have little support among the general population, and can't move easily outside of some eastern border areas and other remote places. A key reason for this is that the American presence there is not seen as a single-country occupation, but rather as part of an international effort with NATO troops, scores of international organizations at work and a central U.N. role in rebuilding the nation. A guerrilla war against the United Nations, the recent Baghdad bombing notwithstanding, simply has inherently less logic and steam than one against the United States or the Soviet Union." (emphasis mine)

The author is smoking crack on this point. How can he say with a straight face that the bombing of the UN headquarters in Iraq, which killed their top man and forced their withdrawl, somehow doesn't show that insurgent violence against the UN makes sense? From the author's perspective, that attack had "inherently less logic and steam than one against the United States". And yet it happened anyways. The author tries pretending it doesn't matter, but it does, and it basically disproves his point. The attack against the UN had MORE logic than the attack against the US, because that single attack forced the UN to withdraw, but attacks against US forces haven't accomplished anything of the sort. So the author is living in a fantasyland concerning what motivates the insurgents, how they operate, what they are willing to do, and the consequences of their actions. The evidence is there, staring him in the face, and he refuses to recognize it. And we're supposed to take his conclusions seriously?

Did you read this article closely before you posted?

Oh, and BTW, the article is more than a year and a half old. Things haven't been static in the intervening period.
 
Oh, bull. You chose to link to an altered copy of the 1983 Proclamation when a half-second web search (exactly .55 seconds according to Google) would have turned up an unaltered copy. You link to that pre-election article with a one-liner which referred to its headline, not to any point you were trying to make. Ward Churchill up there chose statistics whose period ended prior to the post-election strategy change of the terrorists from targeting US troops and Iraqi police recruits to targeting civilians. I'm just not reading any good-faith effort to discuss the subject of this thread or any other issue from you or the left generally.

As to the topic, there is literally nothing to discuss except what took them so long and what holds back others from doing the same. The Dallas Morning News policy is exactly and presicely right (but apparently not implemented as of this morning). Even if one is a reflexive America-hater and previously insisted on believing that the "insurgents" were waging a justified war against Bushitlerburton's illegal occupation before, it is undisputable now that they are targeting civilians and that they are doing so because they know that those civilians oppose their efforts to impose their will and that they instead support the democratically-elected government. Democracy being one of the values which the terrorists hate. They are terrorists.
 
Orwell said:
Could you please calm down and start reading the thread from the beggining? If you bother to do that, you will notice that nobody intentionally made a direct parallel between the soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the US occupation of Iraq. I remarked that today's "terrorists" were, in some cases, yesterday's "freedom fighters". We were strictly talking about the language used to describe the Iraqi "insurgents". Also, if you read the article I linked, that soviet/US parallel is talked about, but in measured terms specifically relevant to the military situation. As far as I can tell, there are no heavy value judgements in it. If you disagree, please tell me why!

Sorry if it happens that I just got into really deep matters for a new poster, but it comes to my mind that in this thread about if it is wrong or right to use the word insurgent no one has given an objective definition not based on historic background:

[/I]Main Entry: 1in·sur·gent
Pronunciation: -j&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin insurgent-, insurgens, present participle of insurgere to rise up, from in- + surgere to rise
1 : a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent
2 : one who acts contrary to the policies and decisions of one's own political party[/I]

So by this meaning, insurgent becomes actually quite a large term, which can be loosely applied depending on what the motivation for the attack was more than who is targeted to, for instance if they are revolting against the stablished government BY killing civilians the term would still apply (of course they would be terrorist AND insurgents).

I think the true bottomline of this problem, is the biased connotation we've got historically for the term insurgent, which bring to our minds the heroes of American and French revolutions.. well.. simply because when an insurgent force was proposing a change (which may or may not turn out to be good) in name of freedom, and succeeded, their victory will be record.

Sadly, the same term applies to the slaughtering movements in an attempt to change the political rule of a territory as long as it against an established government or civil authority.

Why do I insist on it? because much of the arguments we use to "deny" the word insurgent to a foreign movement (considere closely that I don't take stands, I don't say is right or wrong) which in fact is insurgent... are the same arguments to deny the word "human" to living things that truly are, just because they are different, and not us, and because they are doing evil.

So trying to be brief, my personal apreciation is that the word "insurgent" is used correctly in the sense that accords to the real subject which it refers to. The problem is to get rid of the cultural biased backgroung about that word.
 
So if this killing of civilians is an 'insurgency', what was is when it took place before the US arrived?
 

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