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Cable

We have a saying in Holland that getting into a rush most of the time isn't a smart thing to do. I'm in no desperate need of $1.000.000,-, so I'm not in a rush. Simple as that.
 
Get said:
We have a saying in Holland that getting into a rush most of the time isn't a smart thing to do. I'm in no desperate need of $1.000.000,-, so I'm not in a rush. Simple as that.
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Suit yourself. :rolleyes:

On a side note: Seems that saying doesn't apply to Dutch traffic. :boggled:

Hans
 
Get, if you want to I am willing to assist. For a percentage of course.
Do you live nearby?
 
MRC_Hans said:
I once calculated that if you take a 56-lead flat cable and connect the leads alternately, you can actually approach a charateristic impedance of 8 ohms, but I doubt it gives you much advantage over heavy gauge copper.
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Whenever you do that, you really have to pay attention to the shunt capacitance and how it's going to interact with your amp.

"things" have happened due to too much shunt capacitance in a cable.

And, of course, until you get to 1/10 wavelength there is NO, repeat ZERO, issue here to speak of. You have that right. :)

AT 1 foot/nanosecond, for a period of 50 milliseconds, that's 5000 feet at least. 2500 in a very slow propagation cable at 1/2 C.
 
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jj said:
Whenever you do that, you really have to pay attention to the shunt capacitance and how it's going to interact with your amp.

"things" have happened due to too much shunt capacitance in a cable.
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Actually not. If you really achieve an impedance match, the cable will act non-reactive. .... Whether any amplifier outputs exist that are non-reactive at the specified output impedance over even a fraction of their frequency range is quite another question. ;)

- I'm not saying impedance match is going to make the sound better, but at least it is something audiophiles could pursue that would have some kind of roots in the real world. :rolleyes:

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Actually not. If you really achieve an impedance match, the cable will act non-reactive. .... Whether any amplifier outputs exist that are non-reactive at the specified output impedance over even a fraction of their frequency range is quite another question. ;)

- I'm not saying impedance match is going to make the sound better, but at least it is something audiophiles could pursue that would have some kind of roots in the real world. :rolleyes:

Hans
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Except that into any normal amplifier there isn o such thing as an "impedence match". Any modern amplifier has an output impedence in the milliohms. The best loudspeaker in the world (that isn't an active one) has at least a 2:1 variation in impedence around the woofer/enclosure resonance, and the "mean midband" is going to be in the neighborhood of 4 to 8. How you match milliohms to 4 to 8 via a cable is not for this world of physics. Don't forget that the load impedence rating for an audio amplifier is NOT the output impedence.

And given that one can take an impedence meter, and measure the impedence of such a cable (I've done it) and measure close to 1 nanofarad, well, the real world doesn't give you anything close to non-reactive. I'm talking real numbers in the real world here.

Lest you think that 1 nanofarad is unrealistic, well, let's say I was surprised as well. The amplifer it was connected to was much more than merely surprised, it let out the magic smoke, and blew its fuses. I don't think they used these fuses, though:

http://www.aaudioimports.com/ShowProduct.asp?hProduct=37

. . .
 
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MRC_Hans said:
I'm sure he lives nearby.

... The question is nearby what.

Hans
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I think Shrike meant to ask if Get lives near Waddinxveen. Which is in Holland, and Get suggests that he is Dutch. Are you, Get?
 
jj said:
Except that into any normal amplifier there isn o such thing as an "impedence match". Any modern amplifier has an output impedence in the milliohms.
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You can feed a transmission line from a low impedance transmitter. No problem in itself, and often done in high speed logic.

The best loudspeaker in the world (that isn't an active one) has at least a 2:1 variation in impedence around the woofer/enclosure resonance, and the "mean midband" is going to be in the neighborhood of 4 to 8.

And that is the impedance you would try to match.

How you match milliohms to 4 to 8 via a cable is not for this world of physics.
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You don't. You match the transmission line (cable) to the load.

Don't forget that the load impedence rating for an audio amplifier is NOT the output impedence.
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Of course not.

And given that one can take an impedence meter, and measure the impedence of such a cable (I've done it) and measure close to 1 nanofarad, well, the real world doesn't give you anything close to non-reactive.
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A nF won't surprise me at all, but that is also a negligible capacity for a low-impedance AF circuit. However, in a transmission line, you can't just measure the capacity (or inductance, for that matter). It is the combination, and it does provide a non-reactive connection, when it works.

I'm talking real numbers in the real world here.
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Oh, I completely agree that characteristic impedance match is entirely academic, for audio connections in general and speaker cables in particular. I just pointed out that at least it was, unlike most HiFi tweaks, not complete fiction.

Lest you think that 1 nanofarad is unrealistic, well, let's say I was surprised as well. The amplifer it was connected to was much more than merely surprised, it let out the magic smoke, and blew its fuses.
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Mmmm, I don't think it was the nanofarad that did that, in itself. Probably some resonance, or something like that. OR, as I have sometimes seen, the AMP can't really stand being faced with the specified load, and depends on a lossy cable for survival. :p

I don't think they used these fuses, though:

http://www.aaudioimports.com/ShowProduct.asp?hProduct=37

. . .
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Oh I have seen audiophiles staunchly claim benefit from polishing the end-caps on their main power line fuses. :rolleyes:

There seems no end to the hilarity in that branch.

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
A nF won't surprise me at all, but that is also a negligible capacity for a low-impedance AF circuit.
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Actually, it's not. If you take a look at any modern amplifier, there is an inductor in the output circuit after the feedback point (not very big inductor of course) in order to prevent issues with capacitive loads. For some amps, 1 nF has been, previously, easily enough to simply push them over the edge.

One of the very visible issues in some early transistor amplifiers that had substantial negative feedback was a lack of such inductor, and as a result, "smoke gets in your eyes". You may argue it's a bad design. I agree. But the one in question was an acclaimed audiophile design. What more do I need to say?
Oh I have seen audiophiles staunchly claim benefit from polishing the end-caps on their main power line fuses. :rolleyes:

There seems no end to the hilarity in that branch.

Hans
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They are special, on that we can agree.

Back to this test, we'll see if any kind of blind test happens, I think. I've heard so many excuses for why blind tests don't work that I'm very tired of the lot, but they all come down to "but I heard something in a sighted test".

There's a good story or 3 about sighted testing of various audio systems...
 
jj said:
Actually, it's not. If you take a look at any modern amplifier, there is an inductor in the output circuit after the feedback point (not very big inductor of course) in order to prevent issues with capacitive loads. For some amps, 1 nF has been, previously, easily enough to simply push them over the edge.
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Well, since 2 nF is not more thna you can expect from a cable of some lenght, I would rate that as poor design.

One of the very visible issues in some early transistor amplifiers that had substantial negative feedback was a lack of such inductor, and as a result, "smoke gets in your eyes". You may argue it's a bad design. I agree. But the one in question was an acclaimed audiophile design. What more do I need to say?
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Bad design.:p

They are special, on that we can agree.
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The irritating thing is that the 5% sensible stuff is totally drowned in all the bovine excrement.

Back to this test, we'll see if any kind of blind test happens, I think. I've heard so many excuses for why blind tests don't work that I'm very tired of the lot, but they all come down to "but I heard something in a sighted test".
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In this case, "I'm in no rush" at least seems to be honest. Who is in a rush to get their delusions shattered? ;)

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
The irritating thing is that the 5% sensible stuff is totally drowned in all the bovine excrement.
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And room treatment is cheaper than many of these fertilizer products, and unquestionably worth more in terms of the results.
 
Room treatment? Is that improving the acoustics of the room?


Hans
 
jj said:
But not:

http://www.shunmook.com/text1.htm
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I can't believe you are saying that. Just look at the this product, the LP Record Clamp. It's from the swamps of Africa! How can you even question something like this that produces "expanded sound staging, enhanced separation, sharpened focus and enriched tonal balance of the music"?

You are just being all negative and scientific.
;)


F. LP Record Clamp
A legendary Shun Mook product now being made in a very, very limited number. This record clamp is made from extremely rare pieces of dried ebony briar. This extra heavy century old ebony root which were immersed in the swamps of Africa has a unique power that no other wood possesses. The vibration generated by the diamond stylus in the vinyl groove besides inducing an electroflux through the phono-cartridge also excites the ebony molecules, causing it to resonate. This in turn is feed back through the stylus and is reproduced as expanded sound staging, enhanced separation, sharpened focus and enriched tonal balance of the music. Due to the rareness of this timber, there is no doubt that it will become a collector item in the future.
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Femke said:
I think Shrike meant to ask if Get lives near Waddinxveen. Which is in Holland, and Get suggests that he is Dutch. Are you, Get?
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Yes.

MRC_Hans said:
In this case, "I'm in no rush" at least seems to be honest. Who is in a rush to get their delusions shattered? ;)
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Indeed, now I can keep dreaming I hear a difference.

btw. Still in the amplifierbuyingcycle.
 
Get said:
Indeed, now I can keep dreaming I hear a difference.

btw. Still in the amplifierbuyingcycle.
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Yes, so after youbuyanamplifier, you can defer testing further as you will now be in the gettoknowmynewamplifierphase.

(Strange accent, these Dutch)

Hans :p
 
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