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Cable

MRC_Hans said:
This is an acceptable step, but not part of the test.

Hans
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This is the "listener training" part of the test.

Untrained listeners are much less sensitive.

If you can do this with the listener's own listening setup in their own space, that may be the best, then you can dodge both real issues of this kind (which exist but are not the killer here, I expect) and massive, rampant, rampaging excuses after the DBT fails.

Been there.
 
I did not suggest a test for the MDC. For self-test, I assume the listener has the training he/she wants.

I really don't care it it's called preference or difference. I only care if the listener can tell one cable from another, by listening. If they can't, I take the liberty to assume none exists (asuming there is no measurable difference).

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
I did not suggest a test for the MDC. For self-test, I assume the listener has the training he/she wants.

I really don't care it it's called preference or difference. I only care if the listener can tell one cable from another, by listening. If they can't, I take the liberty to assume none exists (asuming there is no measurable difference).

Hans
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Well, actually, if you're listening for preference, no, you can't be as comfortable assuming that there is no audible difference. However, if there is no measurable difference, I'm not very worried about otherwise.

Difference is more sensitive, and time-proximate difference testing is the best thing known for uncontrolled (i.e. listener-selected) stimulii.

Of course, you can do what you wish.
 
jj said:
Well, actually, if you're listening for preference, no, you can't be as comfortable assuming that there is no audible difference. However, if there is no measurable difference, I'm not very worried about otherwise.

Difference is more sensitive, and time-proximate difference testing is the best thing known for uncontrolled (i.e. listener-selected) stimulii.

Of course, you can do what you wish.
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I wish to buy and use cheap cables ;)

Hans
 
Blue Mountain said:
What are the chances a trained engineer could tell the difference by examining the output at the speaker using an instrument such as a scope? In my opinion probably not, but I'm not a sound engineer.
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No chance with a scope. A white noise generator and a spectrum analyzer is what you need.

You can't see even audible distortion with a scope, unless you have a reference signal to overlay, and even then ..... :nope:

Hans
 
I've been into audio for what seems like forever, and this obsession with cables at the expense of more relevant aspects seems to be a perpetual feature. It's like having a car and worrying about which colour paint gives better fuel economy, but never checking tyre pressures.
 
Blue Mountain said:
Thanks. Do you think it would it be possible to reliably determine the difference between to different sets of cables with that equipment, in an otherwise blinded test?
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If there IS a difference, then yes. I don't believe there will be one between a good standard cable and some expensive high-end cable. ... For signal cables, that is. Speaker cables can make a lot of difference, but in my experience, what counts is copper gauge. 4-wire, too, if your speakers are really built for it.

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
No chance with a scope. A white noise generator and a spectrum analyzer is what you need.

You can't see even audible distortion with a scope, unless you have a reference signal to overlay, and even then ..... :nope:

Hans
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Quite.

If you're using sine input (which only excites some issues) your best resort is a distortion analyzer with the residual output run into a spectrum analyzer.

If you're using multitone (which is what I'd do), you should use a good 20 bit ADC and do the work in a computer. Figure a 2^18th length signal (in samples) at the very least.

Use an allpass sequence to measure frequency response and impulse response.

Use a shorted input to check for noise input.

Put 1V DC on it, and then tap the cable to check for microphonics issues in the cable dielectric.
 
Kid Eager said:
I've been into audio for what seems like forever, and this obsession with cables at the expense of more relevant aspects seems to be a perpetual feature. It's like having a car and worrying about which colour paint gives better fuel economy, but never checking tyre pressures.
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Seeing somebody spending 1K USD for cables when not applying any room treatment? Yeah.

Speaker cables? Zip cord. I know one of the best listening rooms in the world is wired with zip cord.
 
jj said:
Quite.

If you're using sine input (which only excites some issues) your best resort is a distortion analyzer with the residual output run into a spectrum analyzer.

If you're using multitone (which is what I'd do), you should use a good 20 bit ADC and do the work in a computer. Figure a 2^18th length signal (in samples) at the very least.

Use an allpass sequence to measure frequency response and impulse response.

Use a shorted input to check for noise input.

Put 1V DC on it, and then tap the cable to check for microphonics issues in the cable dielectric.
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That whooshing noise you hear is the sound of all that going over my head :D

Which is probably something you'll never hear an audiophile say.
 
jj said:
Seeing somebody spending 1K USD for cables when not applying any room treatment? Yeah.

Speaker cables? Zip cord. I know one of the best listening rooms in the world is wired with zip cord.
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Agreed in the zip cord. As heavy gauge as you want to bother with, and if you are into really heavy gauge, a medium-prized speaker cable may be nice for the flexibility, but otherwise ....

I once calculated that if you take a 56-lead flat cable and connect the leads alternately, you can actually approach a charateristic impedance of 8 ohms, but I doubt it gives you much advantage over heavy gauge copper. Impedance match only really makes a difference for leads of 1/4 wavelenght or more, and the wavelength of 100KHz being a couple of miles, I sincerely doubt it is worth the trouble. Flat cables are nice for routing under a carpet, however, if you need that.:p

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Agreed in the zip cord. As heavy gauge as you want to bother with, and if you are into really heavy gauge, a medium-prized speaker cable may be nice for the flexibility, but otherwise ....

I once calculated that if you take a 56-lead flat cable and connect the leads alternately, you can actually approach a charateristic impedance of 8 ohms, but I doubt it gives you much advantage over heavy gauge copper. Impedance match only really makes a difference for leads of 1/4 wavelenght or more, and the wavelength of 100KHz being a couple of miles, I sincerely doubt it is worth the trouble. Flat cables are nice for routing under a carpet, however, if you need that.:p

Hans
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That looks very convincing, but if you don't want to fall foul of people who want to baffle you with math (you know the sort I mean...), you could put in some cables that your gut tells you are right, then fine-tune them with Brilliant Pebbles:
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

As I said previously, I've been into audio for ages, and the products from these guys have help enormously in achieving high-cost audio outcomes.

I've also come up with a couple of innovations myself.
 
Kid Eager said:
That looks very convincing, but if you don't want to fall foul of people who want to baffle you with math (you know the sort I mean...), you could put in some cables that your gut tells you are right, then fine-tune them with Brilliant Pebbles:
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm
Click to expand...

I'm never quite sure if these guys are joking or not. I suspect some of those things started out as jokes.

Hans
 
Kid Eager said:
That looks very convincing, but if you don't want to fall foul of people who want to baffle you with math (you know the sort I mean...), you could put in some cables that your gut tells you are right, then fine-tune them with Brilliant Pebbles:
Click to expand...

You use these on your hi-fi? Wow. :jaw-dropp
 
Blue Mountain said:
That whooshing noise you hear is the sound of all that going over my head :D

Which is probably something you'll never hear an audiophile say.
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Well, I found the whooshing noise well defined in the bass and treble, but the middle was a bit muddled which affected the stereo separation rather badly. :cool:
 
MRC_Hans said:
I'm never quite sure if these guys are joking or not. I suspect some of those things started out as jokes.

Hans
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It started off as a Poe that was nevertheless not quite ridiculous enough. They've upped the ante with the absurdity of the products to make it even more obvious that the whole thing is a parody, but people will still no doubt try to buy stuff.

Audio seem to be extraordinarily rich in woo.
 
I didn't do the test yet. I'm in the process of changing amp and I will do it when the amp is there. I've got 3 options and choosing will take some time. I could've done it with one of my amps, but I'm in no rush so I postponed it. It will be an ab-test. I will be out of the room when someone will switch cables (or not). The points where you can see the cables will be made invisible to me. Don't think I will not do it, because I have no reason not to. If I can't hear it in such conditions, so be it.
 
Get said:
I didn't do the test yet. I'm in the process of changing amp and I will do it when the amp is there. I've got 3 options and choosing will take some time. I could've done it with one of my amps, but I'm in no rush so I postponed it. It will be an ab-test. I will be out of the room when someone will switch cables (or not). The points where you can see the cables will be made invisible to me. Don't think I will not do it, because I have no reason not to. If I can't hear it in such conditions, so be it.
Click to expand...

If you have no reason not to test, why postpone it?

Hans
 
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