Cable

[Get]

I heard about the "cablechallenge" and was told the challenge also was for other types of cable. Let's say I can hear the difference between a standard $4,- interlink and a more expensive one of $200,- would that count? I was told it would, but I have serious doubts.

 

[roger]

Yes, but they have to test the same. Some cables have components like capacitors and the like, and they can (obviously) alter the signal.

Otherwise, yes, test a $1 cable against a $20K cable, if you can find one. You pay for the cable, of course.

I assume you are talking about the JREF challenge, I have no idea about any other challenge.

Why would you doubt it? It has been proven that cables that test the same sound the same. heck, cables that don't test the same sound the same, until you get to really gross distortions.

 

[Get]

I'm talking about that challenge yes. They both are just cables with connectors and no other components other than solder I guess. I don't know if they test the same. How can I test that? Can anyone participate or are there terms? I ask that, because I read something about not everyone can take the challenge. I never heard 2 cables sound the same, so I'm very surprised someone would give me that amount of money for such a simple task or maybe I always heard very different testing/measuring cables. How can you take the challenge? Who must I contact and how? Thanx in advance .

 

[Denver]

Just curious: have you had anyone help you test this? For example, where they switched from one cable to the other, many times, while you listened, and insured during all the tests that you could not know which cable was being used? Or has all your testing been done by yourself alone?

 

[Fnord]

Check the rules. there's a link on the JREF home page.

We're just members here.

 

[Get]

I haven't done blind tests, but the differences are so great most of the time that I don't need that reassurance. Only thing is it must be done on my own system and cables shouldn't be linked through some sort of switchbox, but connected directly and switched by (dis)connecting the connectors, so you rule out that kind of possible interference.

 

[roger]

Okay, a few things.

First, the challenge has been changed such that you need media exposure to get tested. This is because JREF was spending most of their time with cranks or people that have never tested themselves, and it ended up being a waste of time. So, I'm not sure how easy it would be to get tested with cables now. You can but apply and see.*

Second, no one in the history of the world has been able to consistently distinguish cables in an audio environment in a blinded test. Ever. The why and details of that is beyond the scope of this thread, feel free to start a separate thread in science or community and dozens will be willing to discuss this with you. Most people then realize that they have been fooling themselves; a few cling to rationalizations about how the test is somehow unfair - too short a time between comparisons, too long between comparisons, not enough time for "burn in", an endless supply of excuses.

Third, cable testing. I don't know exactly what JREF would require in terms of cable testing - I imagine they might wave testing if cable one was shipped directly from Radio Shack (say), and the other cable from Nordost (say), and opened and unwrapped at the test sight. The point it obviously a cable with passive or active ingredients will sound different, and you also want to forestall trickery. But known cables shipped from a manufacture might allow you to not bother testing the cable. I don't promise that, it is possible.

Another aspect of the testing is that a super crappy cable just might have a bad enough connector that could cause a difference. Say you can't insert it all the way, or it is so loose it wiggles, etc. So these tests usually require some minimum cable - the ones from Radio Shack are usually considered perfectly fine. Something homemade from lamp cord probably not, because who knows how good your soldering and crimping skills are?


* the way to do that would be to apply to a regional challenge, win that, and then move on to Randi. We can help you find a regional challenge, if you are still interested after doing a blinded test on yourself. It's really unfair to people to expect them to spends a lot of their time, for free, setting up a test for you when you don't know that you can do it, yes? So test yourself blinded first.


edit: there are a few other obvious conditions. The cables need some minimal shielding and there can't be tons of interference around. you can easily imagine one cable is microphonic, and the other isn't, and you consistently pick out the one picking upthe neighbors cell phone. There's nothing supernatural about that. One can't be one tiny strand of wire, because that would have high resistance, which would cause an audible volume drop. The "test the same" evens the playing field in that regard - and a $20 Monster cable interconnect will test the same as a $21,000 Audioquest cable.

Google Randi and Pear cable to learn about the last time somebody tried to do this test.

 

[Get]

It's late here now and I'm going to sleep, so I can't go into everything now, but for one I'll do a blind test in advance, because that would be the minimum requierment for me too. You never know what happens after all. I'll be back.

 

[wardenclyffe]

* the way to do that would be to apply to a regional challenge, win that, and then move on to Randi. We can help you find a regional challenge, if you are still interested after doing a blinded test on yourself. It's really unfair to people to expect them to spends a lot of their time, for free, setting up a test for you when you don't know that you can do it, yes? So test yourself blinded first.

Get,

I don't know where you live, but here is a list of regional prizes that you might try for. Pick the one closest to you and keep us updated about your progress.

You might have trouble finding any takers if you have to use your own system. I know nothing about these things, but I'm guessing that someone experienced with electronics might be able to "fix" their own system so that it might have tell-tale signals that would be recognizable to that person alone.

For example, at recent meeting of my local skeptics group, we were listening to very high-pitched tones, like dog whistles. Some people could not hear them at all, and others (mostly people with younger ears) found them to be very annoying.

If you happen to have very acute hearing of high pitched tones, you might be able to rig your system to somehow recognize one cable over another and to cause a high pitched tone that you could hear, but most others couldn't.

Please note, I pretty much have no idea what I'm talking about, but these are the types of conversations that will happen behind closed doors of any skeptical organization to whom you might apply. My scenario above might have no merit at all, but skeptics will consult electronics experts to look for any way to game a system and it might end up that they will say "no" to the idea of you using your own system.

Anyway, here's that list of other (easier to enter) challenges:

There's the Australian Skeptics' AU$100,000 Prize
http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/prize/
They also offer AU$20,000 as a "Spotter's Fee"

There's the IIG's US$50,000 Challenge in California, USA
http://www.iigwest.org/challenge.html
They also offer US$5,000 as a "Finder's Fee"

There's the North Texas Skeptic's US$12,000 Challenge in the USA
http://www.ntskeptics.org/challenge/challenge.htm

There's Prabir Ghosh's 2,000,000 Rupee Challenge in India
http://rationalistprabir.bravehost.com/

There's the Swedish 100,000SeK prize offered by Humanisterna
http://www.humanisterna.se/index.php...d=27&Itemid=49

The Tampa Bay Skeptics offers a US$1000 prize in Florida, USA
http://www.tampabayskeptics.org/challenges.html

In Canada there's the CAN$10,000 from the Quebec Skeptics
http://www.sceptiques.qc.ca/activites/defi

In the UK, the ASKE organization offers £14,000
http://www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/challenge_rules.htm

Tony Youens in the UK offers £5,000
http://www.tonyyouens.com/challenge.htm

In Finland, Skepsis offers 10,000 Euros
http://www.skepsis.fi/haaste/

The Fayetteville Freethinkers in Arkansas, USA offer a US$1000 prize
http://fayfreethinkers.com/

There's a 1,000,000 Yuan prize in China offered by Sima Nan. This is his blog: http://blog.sina.com.cn/simanan

The Belgian SKEPP organization offers a 10,500 Euro prize
http://www.skepp.be/prijzen/de-sisyphus-prijs/

If you find any broken links, or know of any tests not on this list, please notify me in this thread.

Thanks,

Ward

 

[Get]

Thank you very much for the links. I live in the Netherlands, so Belgium would be fine. I know such a test is also a matter of trust. I would just use my own system which isn't rigged, but I know it very well. That's why. It's also possible to use the same system, but then a new one loaned by dealers maybe, but then I have to trust the system isn't rigged. I wouldn't know how to rig a system, but if I could I wouldn't do is, because I guess that would be found and besides that I'm an honest person. I'm sure you trust that . I'll get back when I've done a blind test in my own home. That will take place somewhere between christmas and newyear.

 

[wardenclyffe]

Good luck! Keep us updated. We rarely get to hear about what it's like to work with skeptical groups other than JREF. I, for one, will be very interested to hear what it's like negotiating a test with SKEPP.

Again, good luck,

Ward

 

[welshdean]

Google Randi and Pear cable to learn about the last time somebody tried to do this test.

Allocate a lot of time for this, also read the Swift articles on the Pear Cables.

Good luck!

 

[Get]

I will read a lot more Swift articles. Just read a piece of More denial of death and that was interesting considering some experiences I had which I can't prove btw . Nice readingstuff. ps.: Yes, I will take a lot of time. I know the difficulties involved with such a test.

 

[Get]

Forgot to mention, but your last link gives an incomplete page. The last part of the link " de-sisyphus-prijs " must be " sisyphus-prijs-€10000 ".

 

[wardenclyffe]

Thank you.

Ward

 

[Ladewig]

I would very much like to hear how you will set up the blind test and what the results are.

 

[jj]

Second, no one in the history of the world has been able to consistently distinguish cables in an audio environment in a blinded test.

This is not exactly true. For instance, a reasonable DBT did distinguish between too-thin speaker wire (#22 of a fair length) and #14 AWG wire.

But this is hardly surprising.

For interconnect cables, the first thing you have to do is try a blinded test, just to be sure you're not focusing on the wrong thing. See http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt.htm and look for "Why do we hear what we hear? " There is also an MP3 of the talk up at: http://thewombforums.com/audio/jj_cns.mp3

Make sure this kind of thing isn't going on before you attempt more.

Then, make sure you don't have a busted cable, or an insufficient cable, etc. Nothing keeps people from making bad cables, even expensive ones. Also, make sure you don't have one of the cables with a network in it, or with a resistor in series to make a small lp filter, etc.

Those aren't "surprising" and aren't anti-Physical, and aren't paranormal.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Thank you very much for the links. I live in the Netherlands, so Belgium would be fine. I know such a test is also a matter of trust. I would just use my own system which isn't rigged, but I know it very well. That's why. It's also possible to use the same system, but then a new one loaned by dealers maybe, but then I have to trust the system isn't rigged. I wouldn't know how to rig a system, but if I could I wouldn't do is, because I guess that would be found and besides that I'm an honest person. I'm sure you trust that . I'll get back when I've done a blind test in my own home. That will take place somewhere between christmas and newyear.

How would a system be 'rigged'? You are using the same system for both cables, so any property of the system would be immaterial.

Ask yourself this: When we measure a cable, and find no difference, then the signals getting through them are exactly the same. How can they give different sound, then?

Hans

 

[wardenclyffe]

I brought it up, but I'm sorry, I have no idea how a system could be rigged. I also know absolutely nothing about electronics. I don't know how vending machines can tell one coin from another, but they are rigged to do so. I would imagine that someone who was clever about electronics might be able to figure out a way to rig a tuner or a speaker to recognize the connector that was just plugged into it. Whether it's by weight or copper content or shape of it's terminal end (I've seen some that are completely rounded vs. a little pointy). I frankly have no idea how one would go about it, but I'm guessing that for a million dollars, a clever electronics expert could figure out a way.

Again, I'm guessing that it could be done. I'm not accusing anyone of doing it. I just think that any testing organization will raise an eyebrow if an applicant demands to use his own system that he's had for years and that the testing organization has never seen until the day of the test.

I readily admit that I might be completely wrong, but I was trying to warn Get about some of the objections he might encounter as he proceeded with his quest.

Ward

 

[MRC_Hans]

I brought it up, but I'm sorry, I have no idea how a system could be rigged. I also know absolutely nothing about electronics. I don't know how vending machines can tell one coin from another, but they are rigged to do so. I would imagine that someone who was clever about electronics might be able to figure out a way to rig a tuner or a speaker to recognize the connector that was just plugged into it. Whether it's by weight or copper content or shape of it's terminal end (I've seen some that are completely rounded vs. a little pointy). I frankly have no idea how one would go about it, but I'm guessing that for a million dollars, a clever electronics expert could figure out a way.

Again, I'm guessing that it could be done. I'm not accusing anyone of doing it. I just think that any testing organization will raise an eyebrow if an applicant demands to use his own system that he's had for years and that the testing organization has never seen until the day of the test.

I readily admit that I might be completely wrong, but I was trying to warn Get about some of the objections he might encounter as he proceeded with his quest.

Ward

But now Get seems to insist on his own gear for fear of rigging the other way around. Both would be avoided by using gear from an independent source.

Hans