Breaking down telepathy

[MRC_Hans]

I have to admit a bias against science because for many years medical science failed me. I wasted a lot of time (years) taking advice from doctors and swallowing a lot of ineffective drugs because I had doctor after doctor tell me that what I experienced was 'impossible'. I finally found a good doctor who found I was a rare case with three different conditions affecting the same area. It took her 3 years of investigation and continously sending me back to specialists to find out all these things. Once my pain was explained, effective treatments were found. Nothing showed up in my initial MRIs or CTs so the doctors in the first few years concluded it must be psychological and stopped looking for physical causes. Now Id like to go back to those pompos fools and throw my file in their faces. So yeah, Im angry and I have little faith in what people are sure they know.

I'm sorry to hear about that, but think again: You obviously had a rare and complex condition, and doctors are only human. When finally correctly applied, science saved you. Think about this: You final doctor had information the others didn't have. She knew what the others had done and that it hadn't worked, so she realized she had to think out of the box and look for the unusual.

Thanks for the above info, but at least I know Im not the only person to think of testing humans with a SQUID. I still dont think its a crazy idea, but I can see everyone else does, Im ok with that.

I wouldn't call it crazy, but the problem with using complex and highly sensitive instruments to look for something you don't know what is, is that you may get all kinds of spurious signals, and you may interpret them wrong.

Just look at this Rubik character you linked to, earlier: She took a multimeter, made an open circuit measurement, got some reading she was not competent to understand, and concluded it came from someone 50 meters away! It may have appeared logical to her, but to someone familiar with multimeters and spurious fields, her conclusion is obviously absurd.

Let me tell you something: I have worked professionally with electronic measuring instruments for 45 years. I have not worked with every single type, but I have worked with all groups of instruments. I know what they can do and can't do. If there was magnetic radiation from some people, folks like me would know.

If telepathy, healing, chi, and such exists at all, it will be carried by something completely unknown, and you won't be able to measure it with any conventional instrument. Therefore, the proper approach is to try to show that there is something there. Probing around around with sensitive instruments, you will only fool yourself.

Years ago I wanted an original user name that had no numbers on the end of it. It seemed they were all taken, so I ripped off a name from one of the characters in a book Im writing, I like to make up original names for my characters even if they arent central to the story. It was only intended to be an impermanent thing, yet 'Kleo' I have remained.

Ahh, thanks. MRC_Hans is also something that stuck with me, from a different context and era.

Hans

 

[Kleonaptra]

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, obviously nobody's perfect and rare cases can take time to diagnose and find effective treatments for. I would simply point out that it was someone practising modern medicine who did eventually succeed, and point to the many people who are alive today (I'm sure you know some personally, I know I do) solely because of modern medicine.


In the case of homeopathy the undiluted "treatments" are all toxic; they're chosen specifically because they cause the same symptoms that the patient is complaining of.

If you've got time, it's worth reading up on the history of homeopathy. It's a textbook case of how someone with a good education, a better understanding than his contempories of what we now call the scientific method and the best of intentions can still end up inadvertantly fooling himself into believing something that isn't true.

Here's a good article: A close look at Homeopathy

Thankyou. I am now up to my 6th nuerologist. Because Ive been through so many, and he found an effective treatment, he thinks he's a genius.(even though he is only one third of my diagnosis - he's happy to pass off the stuff that still cant be explained to someone else) I have yet to meet a nuero that doesnt have a serious superiority complex. They were so sure I was just a hypochondriac. So sure. Even I started to believe it, and thats why I still get so angry. My doctor now often says 'the mind is powerful' and thats how I got into meditation, it has dramatically improved my function. Without medical science I'd be here, but crippled. Certainly not having intelligent discussions!

I still have symptoms that cant be explained, but its enough for me to function. Im quite sick of hearing 'theres still so much we dont know about nuerological pain'

That article is simply terrifying. I agree with the basic core idea - happy spirit, happy body. That drives meditation too, creating positive energy in the soul to pass it on to the body. As I said in my original thread, even if its just a mind trick, its a damn useful one, but the idea of toxic substances, well, its out there with leeches and bleeding isnt it? There doesnt seem to be any sense to homeopathy at all. Now I really wish it wasnt synonymus with natural therapy!

 

[Kleonaptra]

I'm sorry to hear about that, but think again: You obviously had a rare and complex condition, and doctors are only human. When finally correctly applied, science saved you. Think about this: You final doctor had information the others didn't have. She knew what the others had done and that it hadn't worked, so she realized she had to think out of the box and look for the unusual.

I wouldn't call it crazy, but the problem with using complex and highly sensitive instruments to look for something you don't know what is, is that you may get all kinds of spurious signals, and you may interpret them wrong.

Just look at this Rubik character you linked to, earlier: She took a multimeter, made an open circuit measurement, got some reading she was not competent to understand, and concluded it came from someone 50 meters away! It may have appeared logical to her, but to someone familiar with multimeters and spurious fields, her conclusion is obviously absurd.

Let me tell you something: I have worked professionally with electronic measuring instruments for 45 years. I have not worked with every single type, but I have worked with all groups of instruments. I know what they can do and can't do. If there was magnetic radiation from some people, folks like me would know.

If telepathy, healing, chi, and such exists at all, it will be carried by something completely unknown, and you won't be able to measure it with any conventional instrument. Therefore, the proper approach is to try to show that there is something there. Probing around around with sensitive instruments, you will only fool yourself.

Ahh, thanks. MRC_Hans is also something that stuck with me, from a different context and era.

Hans

It still hasnt saved me, quite yet! 3 conditions in the same place, even with them just 'controlled' Im not cured. I live in pain and theres always the lurking fear that tomorrow, the medications will have stopped working and I'll be crippled again. To have my last specialist tell me 'you are a candidate for surgery. I could do surgery on you right now, but I recommend you control it with drugs as long as you can. The surgery is invasive and difficult to recover from, and I fear it will not help your pain, or if it does, the condition can still recur within 3 years'

Very comforting. When nothing shows up on the most sensitive of scans, they can only guess and treat the symptoms. If I get lazy, and dont meditate even for one day, the next day Im locked up, muscles tight and pain throbbing, medication or not, so it puts my faith in both.

I am extremely lucky to have met you then, because it is the opinion of people like you I need. You will never convince me that electromagnetic energy is not involved, but you have definitely convinced me its in a form we have yet to understand or measure. Thankyou very much for that.

 

[PixyMisa]

I am extremely lucky to have met you then, because it is the opinion of people like you I need. You will never convince me that electromagnetic energy is not involved but you have definitely convinced me its in a form we have yet to understand or measure.

There's no such thing. There is just one electromagnetic spectrum That's all there is.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Very comforting. When nothing shows up on the most sensitive of scans, they can only guess and treat the symptoms. If I get lazy, and dont meditate even for one day, the next day Im locked up, muscles tight and pain throbbing, medication or not, so it puts my faith in both.

Well, here's to hoping you can keep it under control.

I knew someone who was partly paralysed (after an accident). She fought and fought to recover, suffering and cursing. Then one day she said to herself (with the help of a therapist): "Here I am, these are the cards fate have dealt me. I'll find out what I can do with them." She didn't get better objectively, but her quality of life improved immensely. I don't know if that might do something for you.

I am extremely lucky to have met you then, because it is the opinion of people like you I need. You will never convince me that electromagnetic energy is not involved, but you have definitely convinced me its in a form we have yet to understand or measure. Thankyou very much for that.

Well, the task must be to find out if anything is involved at all. After what, we can worry about in which category to place it.

However, since you obviously don't know much about electromagnetism (no offence, it takes years of study to know), why do you feel it must be just that?

Oh, and I'm glad you liked my homoeopathy article.

Hans

 

[Old man]

Originally Posted by Kleonaptra
I meant, its not common for a wild bird to be SICK because of worms because of their resistance to them. Birds have worms like cats do.

Suppose there's a flock of ten birds in the road. One is "SICK because of worms" (a condition that's "not common" in this flock). Do you really believe that all ten birds have an equal probability of being hit by an oncoming car?

 

[Kleonaptra]

Well, here's to hoping you can keep it under control.

I knew someone who was partly paralysed (after an accident). She fought and fought to recover, suffering and cursing. Then one day she said to herself (with the help of a therapist): "Here I am, these are the cards fate have dealt me. I'll find out what I can do with them." She didn't get better objectively, but her quality of life improved immensely. I don't know if that might do something for you.



Well, the task must be to find out if anything is involved at all. After what, we can worry about in which category to place it.

However, since you obviously don't know much about electromagnetism (no offence, it takes years of study to know), why do you feel it must be just that?

Oh, and I'm glad you liked my homoeopathy article.

Hans

No offensive taken. All I know about electromagnetisim Ive read on the links provided to me by helpful people here.

I have no evidence for my belief, simply when doing exercises to concentrate the aura between my hands there is a sense of magnetisim, both attraction and repel. I have been able to get skeptics to replicate this feeling, and no one can explain it. This is why I thought it might be measured with current equipment, because the sensation is quite real. The description of the energy waves fits exactly with what I know about auras, I simply assume electricity must be involved, because our bodies use it, even if it is only small currents, still, it is there.

 

[Jeff Corey]

... I have no evidence for my belief, simply when doing exercises to concentrate the aura between my hands there is a sense of magnetisim, both attraction and repel. I have been able to get skeptics to replicate this feeling, and no one can explain it...

Skeptics replicate the feeling? I would like to test that, as I have had some experience testing paranormal claims for the New York Area Skeptics.

 

[PixyMisa]

I have no evidence for my belief, simply when doing exercises to concentrate the aura

You don't have an aura.

between my hands there is a sense of magnetisim, both attraction and repel.

You can't sense magnetism.

I have been able to get skeptics to replicate this feeling, and no one can explain it.

Proprioception and an overactive imagination.

This is why I thought it might be measured with current equipment, because the sensation is quite real.

It may be real, but that doesn't excuse any of the utter nonsense you are using to try to explain it.

The description of the energy waves fits exactly with what I know about auras, I simply assume electricity must be involved, because our bodies use it, even if it is only small currents, still, it is there.

Neither energy waves nor auras exist.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Well, photos exist, and they manifest characteristic of waves. A photon is a quantum of electromagnetic radiation: a quantum of visible light or other form of electromagnetic radiation demonstrating both particle and wave properties.
But you're right about auras, No one can see them, I saw it on TV.

 

[PixyMisa]

Electromagnetic radiation is real enough, of course. But "energy waves"? Anyone who uses that term either doesn't know what it means, or thinks you don't.

 

[Jeff Corey]

The show where Randi exposed the phony aura folks was Exploring Psychic Powers Live! was a television show aired live on June 7, 1989, wherein Randi examined several people claiming psychic powers. The show offered $100,000 (Randi's then $10,000 prize plus $90,000 put up by the show.

 

[Kuko 4000]

I have no evidence for my belief, simply when doing exercises to concentrate the aura between my hands there is a sense of magnetisim, both attraction and repel. I have been able to get skeptics to replicate this feeling, and no one can explain it. This is why I thought it might be measured with current equipment, because the sensation is quite real.

Could you desribe the situation in a bit more detail? Did the skeptics sense it from your hands, or did they sense it from their own hands when concentrating and doing similar excercises?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I have no evidence for my belief, simply when doing exercises to concentrate the aura between my hands there is a sense of magnetisim, both attraction and repel. I have been able to get skeptics to replicate this feeling, and no one can explain it.

Oh, I can explain it. Your brain is built to try to make sense of things. When you hold your hands palms facing, but with a distance, and concentrate on the space between them, your brain tries to create some images for you. That is the reason you think you see aura.

Your brain also tries to make sense of the position of the hands, trying to balance the urge of putting them together and the urge to take them apart. This is what feels like attraction and repelling.

This is why I thought it might be measured with current equipment, because the sensation is quite real.

It is quite real, yet it is imagination. Imagination is quite real, but can't be measured.

The description of the energy waves fits exactly with what I know about auras

Which description of energy waves?

What do you know about auras?

Hans