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Bowling For Michael Moore's Bodyguard

Simplifying the whole issue for Moore does not make it fact. Heston's quote is about defense of the right to bear arms. The NRA began life as an organization to promote gun safety. When organizations around the country began calling for and lobbying for laws restricting the right to bear arms the NRA changed focus.

Further adding to the history of the NRA and gun control was the complete screwing the state of California gave gun owners several years ago. When a compromise was reached whereby guns would be registered but permitted. Within a few years they outlawed the same guns and used the registrations to confiscate them. That is when the NRA and gun lobby began becoming immovable, when they made a deal that was totally reneged on by government.

Which is a long way to get to if you are against the NRA but claim not to be against gun ownership you have a lot of explaining to do to get others to believe you. I have not heard this from Moore yet.
 
Silicon said:

CBS is run by a wealthy media conglomerate with a vested interest in maintaining a status quo in deregulation so they can continue to gobble media assets. In that way, Rather was a particular embarrassment, and it caused Viacom inc to put a significant financial weight behind Bush's re-election campaign.

Fox News, by comparison, isn't run by a news expert or a journalist, but by the political operative who created Bush Sr.'s famous Willie Horton ad.

So you're saying Rupert Murdoch is neither 1) wealthy nor 2) interested in "continu(ing) to gobble media assets"?

#1 would be news to everyone, especially Mr Murdoch
#2 would be laughed at in business circles. He bought DirecTV, in case you hadn't noticed.
 
OK, I'm back after a breif departure from shoveling some fluffy stuff here in NJ, so I'll try to address several issues with one post.

First, I applaud any and all who called for Dan Rather's resignation and CBS's attention to correct the story. As for the evidence, all I can say is that I saw a program (early on in this controversy) where Dan was being interviewed and said words to the clear effect that he felt the content was more important than the valididy of the Bush memos -- I can't supply more than that, sorry. If that's not good enough for anyone, I'm sorry, I strive very much to be honest here, and perhaps someone else can back me up. If not, so be it -- you can dismiss it.

Second, after looking through both the FOX report (of the bodyguard incident) and the blog mentioned early on, I noticed two things. One, that most of what was reported (by FOX) was information (as posted) they claimed the bodyguard and/or police said -- not so much as direct hard investigation. (This does not make FOX look good, but it lessens the assertion that it is blatantly false, as who knows exactly what the bodyguard may have said. Perhaps he was trying to score points in NYC by claiming to be M. Moore's bodyguard. FOX also did not say that Mr. Burk had a firearm on his person -- yet this is an issue made prominent on the blog. Please re-read the sentense in the FOX article; it can be taken 2 ways. The blog also contradicts itself with ... "The charge involves having a firearm without a New York City License to carry it." ... and then states ... "Patrick Burk’s firearm is legally registered to Patrick Burk - it is not 'unlicensed'." Are we back to what the definition of is is? This was in reference to the charge, not the actual account.) And then two, the blog does not make mention that most of the reporting is of what Mr. Burk (or the police) allegedly said -- not of actual account investigation; it critiques it, however, in that manner.

Anyway, FOX could certainly have done much better -- and I don't think it professional of them to not update this story. I also think this was a case of very bad judgement on the NYC airport police -- just what was Mr. Burk suppose to do?

Fortunately, this is a small issue -- and I don't believe Mr. Burk will be prosecuted. I suspect that it is not all that unusual for those that transport firearms to run into this sort of thing from time to time, and any future empolyers of Mr. Burk should understand that.
 
Shinytop said:

Which is a long way to get to if you are against the NRA but claim not to be against gun ownership you have a lot of explaining to do to get others to believe you. I have not heard this from Moore yet.

Maybe you haven't been listening. I wouldn't blame you if you didn't. Moore has some ideas that, in my opinion, are a bit wacky. However, oppposition to gun ownership isn't one of them. He was quite explicit about that in "Bowling for Columbine". Also, I don't think he is against the NRA. He's a member. He is not a big fan of Charlton Heston. That's true.
 
It's true. Michael Moore is a lifetime member of the NRA. But it came about because he wanted to challenge Heston for the leadership and you could not hold office without being a member for so long or having a lifetime membership. I don't think that counts as endorsing any policy of the NRA.

This is a quote attributed to MM:

"After Columbine, I decided that I would run against Charlton Heston for the presidency of the NRA. If elected, my plan was to try to return the NRA to a gun safety organization, instead of its current agenda of gun fanaticism. The rules said that to run for president, you had to be a member for the past five years or buy a lifetime membership for $750. And that's what I did. But after a while I realized this endeavor was going to take too much time, so I decided to focus all my attention on the movie I was making."

Of course, the place I found it was a site that is not a fan of his so you can accept it or not, your choice.

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/moorenra.htm
 
Meadmaker said:
If the only worthwhile question in the whole darned world was the pro-gun vs. anti-gun agenda, then maybe you would have a point.
So what: he deceived people on gun issues to call attention to global warming?

Those lies are told, clearly, for the furtherance of his agenda. But it doesn't follow that his agenda is anti-gun. He very specifically said it was not.
When did he say that? And once we have accepted that he is dishonest, why should we take his word over the clear implications of his actions?

He certainly opposes what might be called "the gun lobby", including the NRA leadership. That isn't the same as being anti-gun.
As long as we're spilitting hairs, he might not be anti-gun, but he did make an anti-gun movie.

If you don't buy into my explanation, then I'd like to try an experiment. Someone post an example of one of Moore's "lies" in BFC that clearly is anti-gun, and I'll see if I can say what I thought he was really saying, which was not anti-gun.
He repeatedly discusses gun tragedies, and NRA events that occurred in the same general area, as if the latter is done in response to the former.

Just thinking said:
The blog also contradicts itself with ... "The charge involves having a firearm without a New York City License to carry it." ... and then states ... "Patrick Burk’s firearm is legally registered to Patrick Burk - it is not 'unlicensed'."
I don't see the contradiction. Perhaps he has a NJ license.
 
Shinytop said:
It's true. Michael Moore is a lifetime member of the NRA. But it came about because he wanted to challenge Heston for the leadership and you could not hold office without being a member for so long or having a lifetime membership. I don't think that counts as endorsing any policy of the NRA.

This is a quote attributed to MM:

"After Columbine, I decided that I would run against Charlton Heston for the presidency of the NRA. If elected, my plan was to try to return the NRA to a gun safety organization, instead of its current agenda of gun fanaticism. The rules said that to run for president, you had to be a member for the past five years or buy a lifetime membership for $750. And that's what I did. But after a while I realized this endeavor was going to take too much time, so I decided to focus all my attention on the movie I was making."

Of course, the place I found it was a site that is not a fan of his so you can accept it or not, your choice.

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/moorenra.htm

One of the logical conclusions from his comparison of the US and Canada. Canadians have many guns, the US has many guns, the Canadians have a low homicide rate, the us a high one. Moores is concluding, rightly or wrongly, that it is the fanatical nature of gun ownership in the US that is a problem.
 
Art Vandelay said:


quote:
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Those lies are told, clearly, for the furtherance of his agenda. But it doesn't follow that his agenda is anti-gun. He very specifically said it was not.
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When did he say that? And once we have accepted that he is dishonest, why should we take his word over the clear implications of his actions?


Basically, what AUP said. After discussing gun violence in the USA in BFC, he had a line discussing the problem, "It must be the guns", at which point he goes into a lengthy comparison of the United States and Canada, noting the extreme difference in their society, despite the fact that they have just as many guns.

He cites the real difference as having to do with a more socialist government. (Oversimplification. See the movie for what he really says.)

He is quite clear in saying that the problem is not the existence of guns. "Bowling for Columbine" is a movie about race and class relations in the United States. It is about a culture of fear and suspicion that pervades our society, and causes us to believe that threats to our life and home are hiding around every corner, and especially in South Central Los Angeles or south of Eight Mile Road in Detroit. (I live at 10 1/2 mile. Eight mile is the city border. I'm in the suburbs.) It's a culture that causes us to keep guns at the ready, often with tragic results.

There was a lot in it that I disagreed with, but if you looked at it with an open mind, I think it clearly identified a problem, although one was left wondering what he thought the solution was. He made it quite clear that guns weren't the issue.



quote:
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If you don't buy into my explanation, then I'd like to try an experiment. Someone post an example of one of Moore's "lies" in BFC that clearly is anti-gun, and I'll see if I can say what I thought he was really saying, which was not anti-gun.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He repeatedly discusses gun tragedies, and NRA events that occurred in the same general area, as if the latter is done in response to the former.


I was hoping for a lie, or at least a mischaracterization. The latter was done in response to the former. Do you think the NRA's decision to have activities in Michigan shortly after Kaela Rawling's (sp?) death was coincidence? It wasn't. They knew that the death would prompt calls by some for gun control. They wanted to be there to express an opposing viewpoint.

Moore's point was that the people of the NRA used the death of a six year old as a way to tell everyone just how important it was for them to remain armed against that ever present threat lurking on the wrong side of the tracks. Or the wrong side of the world.

His beef with the NRA is not that they own guns. His beef with the NRA is that they insist that we need to own guns, to protect us from, you know, those people.
 
I thought that Moore's expressed belief was that white people own guns because they are afraid of blacks...if he is (presumably) against that fear, it might seem to some folks that he is also opposed to the fearful ownership of guns.

I don't know what reasons he may have for not wanting black people to own guns.
 
crimresearch said:
I thought that Moore's expressed belief was that white people own guns because they are afraid of blacks...if he is (presumably) against that fear, it might seem to some folks that he is also opposed to the fearful ownership of guns.

I don't know what reasons he may have for not wanting black people to own guns.

Going of some of the things Moore has said it is my impression that he wishes he was born a black man. He strikes me as kind of a white hating anti racist racist.
 
Meadmaker said:
Art Vandelay said:
There was a lot in it that I disagreed with, but if you looked at it with an open mind, I think it clearly identified a problem, although one was left wondering what he thought the solution was. He made it quite clear that guns weren't the issue.

I think your summary is pretty right, it is a while since I saw the movie.

I think there is an intention to put the questions and aspects on the table, and use the film as more of a discussion point, to get people talking. Since there is no definitive answer, it would have been a mistake for him to take the easy way out and try to provide one.

If there is any 'anti-gun' aspect to the film, it is that he thinks guns don't get the critical thought directed at them they deserve, the NRA is pretty stuck in a reflexive 'attack the gun controllers' mode, as can be seen in the posts here. But the film is a lot more than that, and it asks questions that are very important to Americans and their safety. (And sanity, for that matter).
 
Meadmaker said:
He is quite clear in saying that the problem is not the existence of guns.
And yet he also is equally clear about saying that they are. Looking for a clear position in BFC is like looking for one in the Bible.

"Bowling for Columbine" is a movie about race and class relations in the United States.
Really? It sound like you watched a different movie from the one I did.

It is about a culture of fear and suspicion that pervades our society, and causes us to believe that threats to our life and home are hiding around every corner, and especially in South Central Los Angeles or south of Eight Mile Road in Detroit.
That looks a lot more like an effect than a cause of violence to me.

Do you think the NRA's decision to have activities in Michigan shortly after [Kayla Rolland's] death was coincidence?
"Shortly after"? What are you, a geologist? And how could an event planned before the Columbine tragedy be caused by it? What, are the NRA now capable of time travel?

Moore's point was that the people of the NRA used the death of a six year old as a way to tell everyone just how important it was for them to remain armed against that ever present threat lurking on the wrong side of the tracks. Or the wrong side of the world.
Can you give any quote of the NRA mentioning her at the rally? And how is a tragic accident an example of "that ever present threat lurking on the wrong side of the tracks"? What, would a white, upper class six year old have been safe with a gun?

His beef with the NRA is that they insist that we need to own guns, to protect us from, you know, those people.
Who, irresponsible six-year-olds? Do you seriously think that the NRA is using this as an example of where more guns would have helped?

username
Going of some of the things Moore has said it is my impression that he wishes he was born a black man.
I think he just wants to be able to shout "help, help, I'm being repressed!" Any perceived injustice would do, although being black would certainly help. His personal theme song is probably "I Want to be a Minority".

AUP
Moores is concluding, rightly or wrongly, that it is the fanatical nature of gun ownership in the US that is a problem.
I wonder how many gun murders are committed by NRA members? It seems to me that most murderers have a practical rather "fanatical" attitude towards guns. Most people want to kill, and so they use a gun, rather than wanting to use a gun, and so kill.
 
Joshua Korosi said:
In my personal experience, the way some people talk about Moore is about the same as the way some other people talk about Bush. Both groups have their occasional valid points.

Sure he gets criticism, even vile criticism. But I think the "constant threat" this guy is under is vastly overstated. His bodyguard and bullet-proof car are nothing more than emotional grandstanding, and they don't fool me. Come on.


Josh I really think the burden of proof is on you to establish that. I don't think one should presume that a person is faking from the onset, especially if that person is a famous one who puts forth controversial, vitriolic documentaries.
 
Uhhhmmmm...How many Hollywood film makers were murdered with guns yesterday? The day before? Last year? Last decade? Century?

Compare that to ordinary cab drivers and convenience store clerks, cops, or even rappers.

Movie making in the US isn't exactly a high risk profession in terms of gun violence.

Doesn't mean that an individual Hollywood celebrity shouldn't protect themselves, it just highlights the irony of any given Hollywood celebrity advocating that others shouldn't have the same right.
 
DialecticMaterialist said:
Josh I really think the burden of proof is on you to establish that. I don't think one should presume that a person is faking from the onset, especially if that person is a famous one who puts forth controversial, vitriolic documentaries.

My belief is based on the fact that there have been no public "threats" made, there have been no attempts on his life, no extremely violent "anti-Moore" rallies. In fact, all we have at all is Moore's word. And given his penchant for hyperbole as evidenced in his documentaries (both Bowling and 9/11 were essentially feature-length appeals to emotion), it's not too much of a stretch to consider that he could possibly be exaggerating the grave 'danger' he's supposed to be in. The person here who hasn't met his burden of proof is Moore. It's a simple matter of anecdote vs. evidence (or lack thereof, in this case).
 
Art Vandelay said:
http://www.gunweek.com/2000/drama.html


/************
quote:
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"Bowling for Columbine" is a movie about race and class relations in the United States.
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Really? It sound like you watched a different movie from the one I did.
***************/

I think we watched it with different eyes.

I went to the theater expecting to see an anti-gun movie, and was surprised at what I found.



quote:
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Do you think the NRA's decision to have activities in Michigan shortly after [Kayla Rolland's] death was coincidence?
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"Shortly after"? What are you, a geologist?


I was sure that I remembered NRA activity shortly after the Kayla Rolland shooting, meaning within days or weeks. So I went to google to see what I could find. The rally by Charlton Heston in Flint did not occur until October, and it was a get out the vote rally for George Bush, seeking his first election. The shooting had happened in February.

What confused me was all of the media buzz immediately after the shooting. Especially here in Michigan, local NRA folks were talking a great deal, and were being interviewed a great deal. Meanwhile, the national media featured verbal sparring between President Clinton and Wayne LaPierre and Charlton Heston of the NRA.


One site, from Gun Week http://www.gunweek.com/2000/drama.html,
described it this way, "The horrible schoolhouse shooting of a 6-year-old child by another youngster who brought the gun from the Flint, MI crack house in which he was living provided the launching pad for one of the year’s most lively debates. Clinton exploited the Kayla Rolland tragedy by immediately declaring on NBC’s Today show that, had his mandatory trigger lock legislation been enacted, the first-grader would never have been shot.

Clinton postulated that even a drug addict in a crack house would have used a trigger lock if he knew children were present. He further charged that other countries don’t have a gun problem because “other countries don’t have an NRA.”

Reaction was swift and bare-knuckled. NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, appearing a few days later on ABC’s This Week with Sam Donaldson and Cokie Roberts, took the gloves off. He accused Clinton of having a willingness to accept a certain number of gun deaths to further his anti-gun agenda.

For the next three weeks, the red-hot rhetoric flamed across the nation’s airwaves, pitting LaPierre and NRA President Charlton Heston in a no-holds-barred battle of words with Clinton Administration spokesmen, and other gun control proponents.

NRA’s membership skyrocketed in the following weeks, as gunowners flooded NRA switchboards and talk radio telephones with calls of support for LaPierre and Heston."

Moore made it look in the movie like Heston flew to Michigan for a rally immediately after the shooting, which is not true. On the other hand, Heston, Lapierre, and the rest of the NRA did have immediate and vigorous response to it.

So, this was exactly what I asked for. It was a mischaracterization, perhaps even a lie, by Michael Moore. So, what was Moore's point, if not anti-gun?

There were two points. One of them I disagree with completely. The other I think is worth considering.

The first point was that the boy who committed the shooting had to be left in the "care" of a relative because the mean old welfare reformers had forced his mom, an unmarried woman, to get a job. And since there were no jobs she could find in Flint, she had to commute to Auburn Hills, some thirty miles away. This kept her away from her child. On this point, I have zero sympathy for the woman. But Moore was using this as an example of how extreme poverty and modifications to our social programs might have contributed to violence. I think poverty does contribute to violence, but I think forcing people to get jobs is a good thing. I even voted for John Engler, the governor whose major accomplishment in Michigan was exactly this sort of welfare reform.

The second point he makes is that the NRA and others used this incident as another way to instill fear in people. This was a case where a poor black child who lived with criminals showed up to school and shot an innocent white girl. This point was not lost in the least on local talk radio participants in our town. Note the language in the Gun Week article, "even a drug addict in a crack house ".

The thrust of the NRA's ad campaign to which the Gun Week article refers was that President Clinton had done a lousy job enforcing gun laws. Moore would say that this was more hype, telling people to fear THEM. The government isn't protecting you. You need weapons! I don't exactly agree with Moore on that point, either, but I think it is worth thinking about.



Do you seriously think that the NRA is using this as an example of where more guns would have helped?

They used this as an example of the hordes of criminals walking our streets, and the Democrats' failure to put them behind bars where they belong. For reference, find some web sites detailing Moore's lies in "Columbine". A lot of them include among the "lies" the sympathetic portrayal of the shooter. These web sites say this kid was rotten to the core. Try googling "Kayla Rolland" and "class thug". That characterization of the shooter, who is six years old, remember, seemed to show up repeatedly on those web sites.
 
Re: Re: Bowling For Michael Moore's Bodyguard

The Central Scrutinizer said:
Not ironic at all. Michael Moore was not arrested for carrying an unlicensed gun - his body guard was. Michael Moore and his bodyguard are two different people.

In addition, it turns out (as Crimesreach's link shows) that:

a). It wasn't HIS bodyguard, it was just A security man who had once guarded him for a while (as the clarification said, you could also say the man was "Clinton's bodyguard" since he once had the duty to guard Clinton during some event).

b). Far from "carrying an unlicensed gun", his gun was licensed, was carried unarmed and seperate from the ammunition in a locked case as regulations require, and he declared it to the flight personnel as well, again as the law requires.

Not a story, in other words.

Of course, this is HIS side of the story, but it stands to reason that a professional bodyguard with years of experience would know the procedure for carrying ("transporting" is more accurate) weapons on a plane, and would not be pulling some stupid "I've got a gun" stunt, so I tend to believe it is more or less the truth.
 
Re: Re: Re: Bowling For Michael Moore's Bodyguard

Skeptic said:
In addition, it turns out (as Crimesreach's link shows) that:

a). It wasn't HIS bodyguard, it was just A security man who had once guarded him for a while (as the clarification said, you could also say the man was "Clinton's bodyguard" since he once had the duty to guard Clinton during some event).

b). Far from "carrying an unlicensed gun", his gun was licensed, was carried unarmed and seperate from the ammunition in a locked case as regulations require, and he declared it to the flight personnel as well, again as the law requires.

Not a story, in other words.

Of course, this is HIS side of the story, but it stands to reason that a professional bodyguard with years of experience would know the procedure for carrying ("transporting" is more accurate) weapons on a plane, and would not be pulling some stupid "I've got a gun" stunt, so I tend to believe it is more or less the truth.


Or, he just stowed the weapon away because the International Bodyguards Asociation had notified all its members that Claus was flying around that time period.
 

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