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Blaze in Swiss resort bar kills around 40 people, police say

Steve said:
It's ridiculous that in this day and age public facilities like this still use flammable construction materials. And are not fitted with sprinkler systems. There has to be code violations here that were overlooked by building inspectors. If not then Swiss building codes are seriously deficient.
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It is suggested the foam sound insulation on the ceiling spread the fire, although it should be fire retardant treated, this apparently fails over time. Certainly the images don't show a functioning sprinkler system.
 
AmyStrange said:
Seems to me that's what I would call being stoic---not that there's anything wrong with that.
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I haven't read deeply into Stoic philosophy, but if you're a Stoic then you're austere by choice. I simply can't come up with any way of expressing my empathy that doesn't sound either trite or dismissive.
 
probably a flashover - the sparklers ignited the ceiling, causing a small fire that smouldered without much oxygen, generating pyrolytic gases.
At some point, people decided to get some fresh air, which caused the entire room to ignite in a flash.
Wouldn't have happened in a bigger or well ventilated room.
 
arthwollipot said:
I haven't read deeply into Stoic philosophy, but if you're a Stoic then you're austere by choice. I simply can't come up with any way of expressing my empathy that doesn't sound either trite or dismissive.
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Yeah, I guess you could call it a philosophy, but I like to call it the Dirty Harry affect.

The strong and silent type that instead of breaking down in the face of danger, get tough, get going, and get it done.

Stoic men very rarely cry because they consider it a weakness and unmanly.

You know, crazy crap like that.
 
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Planigale said:
It is suggested the foam sound insulation on the ceiling spread the fire, although it should be fire retardant treated, this apparently fails over time. Certainly the images don't show a functioning sprinkler system.
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In my experience (40+ years in mechanical buildings systems engineering) if sprinklers were installed and operational you wouldn't need to see images because they would have controlled the fire and this tragedy would not have happened.
 
AmyStrange said:
Yeah, I guess you could call it a philosophy, but I like to call it the Dirty Harry affect.

The strong and silent type that instead of breaking down in the face of danger, get tough, get going, and get it done.

Stoic men very rarely cry because they consider it a weakness and unmanly.

You know, crazy crap like that.
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I suspect that arth is talking about feeling so awkward in certain social situations, that you stay silent. That is quite different from stoicism, or dirty harryism.
 
Helen said:
I suspect that arth is talking about feeling so awkward in certain social situations, that you stay silent. That is quite different from stoicism, or dirty harryism.
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You're probably right.

Being with someone who just lost a loved one would be uncomfortable for me too, but just standing around and not comforting them with words of condolence (even if they're trite or dismissive) would make me feel even more uncomfortable and kind of selfish, but that's just me, although I do like the term dirty harryism.

BTW, I'm not criticizing you Art. I'm just explaining my philosophy of stoicism, and how I would feel under similar circumstances.

Not saying anything at all would also be dismissive of the person's pain, like their loss wasn't important enough to at least comment on it, even if it's just, "They're in a better place," or "At least they're not in any more pain," or "If you need anything don't hesitate to ask," which also seems trite to me, but I would get some comfort from it.

I mean, how would you feel if you lost a loved one and someone just stood there and not say anything at all or at least give you a hug.

Anyway, I assume Art would at least give the person a hug, even if he doesn't say anything.
 
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I've encountered people who have been horribly awkward around me when I have lost loved ones, and it is always quite apparent why they get so tongue-tied. And most of them have been very sensitive, so it hasn't been about lack of sym- or empathy; i actually think the opposite may have been true. There are those who just lack both sym- and em- as well, but they usually say something tritely anodyne, and then move on to something that interests them more. That's not arth (I think).
 
Planigale said:
Also a major incident for the health services, no single burns unit could mange these numbers of severe burns, they will have to have been transported widely, probably internationally.
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They will have been transferred by helicopter to specialised units in Bern (70 km), Lausanne (70km), Geneva (100 km), Zurich (140 km), and even Lyon in France (the main regional reference hospital for burns patients).
 
AmyStrange said:
You're probably right.

Being with someone who just lost a loved one would be uncomfortable for me too, but just standing around and not comforting them with words of condolence (even if they're trite or dismissive) would make me feel even more uncomfortable and kind of selfish, but that's just me, although I do like the term dirty harryism.

BTW, I'm not criticizing you Art. I'm just explaining my philosophy of stoicism, and how I would feel under similar circumstances.

Not saying anything at all would also be dismissive of the person's pain, like their loss wasn't important enough to at least comment on it, even if it's just, "They're in a better place," or "At least they're not in any more pain," or "If you need anything don't hesitate to ask," which also seems trite to me, but I would get some comfort from it.
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AmyStrange said:
I mean, how would you feel if you lost a loved one and someone just stood there and not say anything at all or at least give you a hug.

Anyway, I assume Art would at least give the person a hug, even if he doesn't say anything.
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Hilighted.
I don’t know. If so depends on the person you’re saying it to.
What is wrong with letting them grieve and maybe even cry? Why not acknowledge that they must feel absolutely awful. Sometimes just sitting next to someone, saying nothing, and just letting them cope with their loss is the best thing to do.
Healing will come later, it does not have to start immediately.
And certainly not setting their grief in perspective by saying it’s all not that bad because ’at least they’re not hurting anymore’. And thus that they should stop feeling so bad.

of you’re three examples, I personally, would accept the third one. The second one would most likely result in something like’ who the ◊◊◊◊ are you saying something like this at this time?!’
The first example would very very much depend on the tone in which it was said.
Best case would be a reaction like example two. Worst case a flattened nose.

What i want to say, is you have to be very careful what you say to someone that is in full grief and maybe feeling angry about the whole case. Not everybody will accept your reaction as sincere and feel that you’re just putting them down and saying they should stop feeling so selfish in their loss.

Not that I think you mean it in any way like that, don’t get me wrong, but people who had just lost their kids in something like this in Switzerland might not feel it the way you intended.
 
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I find it hard to say something, but it was this forum that makes me say something, many people posted how a "you have my sympathy" style responses were a comfort, so I forego when I can my own reticence and try to say something, it may be trite or banal to some folk but if it can help bring any comfort to some then why not?
 
I find trying to express the sentiment of "I am here for you" is far, far safer than many of the standards that attempt to directly address the person's grief or the state of the deceased.

Safer in the sense of not stepping on unanticipated emotional toes at the wrong moment.
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
probably a flashover - the sparklers ignited the ceiling, causing a small fire that smouldered without much oxygen, generating pyrolytic gases.
At some point, people decided to get some fresh air, which caused the entire room to ignite in a flash.
Wouldn't have happened in a bigger or well ventilated room.
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I have certainly seen others suggest a flashover which would explain the large numbers of severe burns. The argument for this appears to be theoretical / experience based rather than any evidence from this case. So likely true, but awaits forensic analysis.
 
erwinl said:

Hilighted.
I don’t know. If so depends on the person you’re saying it to. What is wrong with letting them grieve and maybe even cry? Why not acknowledge that they must feel absolutely awful. Sometimes just sitting next to someone, saying nothing, and just letting them cope with their loss is the best thing to do.
Healing will come later, it does not have to start immediately.
And certainly not setting their grief in perspective by saying it’s all not that bad because ’at least they’re not hurting anymore’. And thus that they should stop feeling so bad.

of you’re three examples, I personally, would accept the third one. The second one would most likely result in something like’ who the ◊◊◊◊ are you saying something like this at this time?!’
The first example would very very much depend on the tone in which it was said.
Best case would be a reaction like example two. Worst case a flattened nose.

What i want to say, is you have to be very careful what you say to someone that is in full grief and maybe feeling angry about the whole case. Not everybody will accept your reaction as sincere and feel that you’re just putting them down and saying they should stop feeling so selfish in their loss.

Not that I think you mean it in any way like that, don’t get me wrong, but people who had just lost their kids in something like this in Switzerland might not feel it the way you intended.
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I agree with you on all of that, especially how it depends on the person.

Thank you.
 
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It is reported that the club had not had a fire inspection for five years.
www.bbc.co.uk

Swiss ski bar not inspected for five years before deadly fire, mayor says

The New Year's Eve fire at a bar in Crans-Montana killed 40 people and injured 116.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
One problem in Switzerland is 'fire service' is part of national service. Out of 95,000 Swiss firefighters all but 1,000 are part time volunteers. Fire service is unpopular and if there are insufficient volunteers then service can be compulsory. So it may well be the local service was understaffed and members were not enthusiastic or trained in fire inspection.

ETA first response fire fighters are the police until the fire militia turn out.
 
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When I saw the photos of the sparklers in the champagne bottles being waved overhead, I thought it must be some stupid new idea, but apparently they'd been doing it for some time as a regular thing for special orders.
 
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