Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

Regarding the $5,000 per phone per provider, I didn't see that in the article but maybe I missed it. Could you either quote the relevant part or cite another source? If true that's really dumb. It doesn't make much sense to have a $900 transaction limit before needing an ID but then allowing multiple transactions.
It was mentioned in an article, I suspect it will be different for different providers and different states. However there must be some kind of upper limit - it's not like you can exchange $900 and then never use it again. So what is the max you can do in a particular time period?

If it wasn't crypto ATMs these people would probably still be getting scammed, just via gift cards or something else.
Absolutely - I was just pointing out where a decent amount of revenue might be coming from in the machines. These call centre scams rake in billions every year in America alone. So even if only 10% went through these machines, it would represent decent revenue.

I find the Chainalysis quote dubious. I have never heard them called fraud shops. They are normally referred to as dark markets. Dark markets vary but mostly sell drugs.
I think they are using that term to refer to (largely) Indian call centre scammers, not dark markets.

As to the drop globally in money funneled through ATMs, that could be from any number of factors. Maybe in Jan 21 a larger number of people were interested in BTC and trying to get in on the speculation train, but by Oct those people already invested and there wasn't as much interest to purchase from new users. 6 months from now that could drop even further or have found renewed interest. Crypto is volatile like that.
Well, it's hardly global - the USA has 90% of these machines. The third largest number are in Spain and they only have 200 machines. As I said before, it's hard to imagine the crypto frenzy is going to get going again any time soon. Recent surveys show that only 8% of Americans have a positive view of crypto - my bet is within a year most of these machines will be gathering dust.
 
It was mentioned in an article, I suspect it will be different for different providers and different states. However there must be some kind of upper limit - it's not like you can exchange $900 and then never use it again. So what is the max you can do in a particular time period?


Absolutely - I was just pointing out where a decent amount of revenue might be coming from in the machines. These call centre scams rake in billions every year in America alone. So even if only 10% went through these machines, it would represent decent revenue.


I think they are using that term to refer to (largely) Indian call centre scammers, not dark markets.


Well, it's hardly global - the USA has 90% of these machines. The third largest number are in Spain and they only have 200 machines. As I said before, it's hard to imagine the crypto frenzy is going to get going again any time soon. Recent surveys show that only 8% of Americans have a positive view of crypto - my bet is within a year most of these machines will be gathering dust.

That BTC ATMs charge 10% on up for transactions is an indicator that volume is low. Otherwise their would be BTC ATMs popping up all over. Not looking good for BTC replacing regular ATMs which charge far smaller fees or nothing at all like the ones I use to get occasioanal cash from my bank account.
 
A lot of the transactions are likely related to a scam or other illegal activity and is mostly a bad thing. However, not all illegal activities are also immoral. Someone living in an authoritarian country may use it to anonymously fund activities against the regime that would be considered illegal and get them thrown into prison or killed. Someone living in the US in a state where abortion is illegal with an AG focused on finding and prosecuting women who get them could use it to hide the fact they paid for an abortion. Someone with a medical issue that is helped by marijuana, but who lives in a place where they would be prosecuted for it, may use it to acquire their medication while reducing the risk of being caught. Heck, even if they don't have a medical issue. In cases like these, I don't think a 20% transaction fee matters much to them.


So you're saying, basically the illegality thing, and the consequent lack of more reasonable, less extortionate options. On the user side.

Makes sense. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct explanation.


What about the other side of the equation, though? Why're they charging those crazy amounts? Just because they can?

(I guess the illegality thing, here as well? Because it jacks up their potential loss, their risk?)


If it's true that illegality that's the answer to the extortionate-fee question, on both sides of the equation, then this is a very unstable situation, and might crumble under any day. Maybe because other illegals get on into the act, like protection gangs and all, or maybe the law catches up with them.


eta: I take your point, not everything illegal is necessarily immoral. But that's more like a hypothetical, surely, an abstraction? Because in the US of today, I don't think there's too much of a disconnect between illegality and immorality. Even the weed thing, perfectly valid example that, is kind of passe now.
 
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It might be interesting to understand why.

Both why's. Why they charge such extortionate fees; as well as why those that use those ATMs pay those crazy percentages out.



eta: Well ok, one "explanation" would be to do with desperate money launderers and people trafficking in illegal stuff and other such low lifes. And sure, that explanation would hit home at least some of the time, I'm sure, maybe even for a signficant proportion of such transactions. Still, that kind of thing can hardly account for all of those transactions, and probably not even the majority of such transactions, right? So I'm wondering why, both why's.

I just did 30 seconds of Internet research. It looks like a Bitcoin ATM that can handle cash will cost you in the ballpark of $10k. Then you have got to pay to install it somewhere in such a way that somebody couldn't just come over in the night and load it onto their truck and drive away with it. Then you need to pay somebody to make sure it is stocked with enough cash and take surplus cash to a bank to be deposited. The corollary of that is you need a business account at the bank, which will also cost you money.

My guess is that the transaction fees are high because all of the costs have to be covered by a relatively small number of transactions.
 
I just did 30 seconds of Internet research. It looks like a Bitcoin ATM that can handle cash will cost you in the ballpark of $10k. Then you have got to pay to install it somewhere in such a way that somebody couldn't just come over in the night and load it onto their truck and drive away with it. Then you need to pay somebody to make sure it is stocked with enough cash and take surplus cash to a bank to be deposited. The corollary of that is you need a business account at the bank, which will also cost you money.

My guess is that the transaction fees are high because all of the costs have to be covered by a relatively small number of transactions.


Heh, very time-efficient, your online "research". :thumbsup:

While all of that makes sense, and your conclusion does not seem unwarranted; but still, there would appear to be further layers to it. (Said the guy who's not put in even those 30 seconds of research, haha!)

That is, much the same constraints apply to regular ATMs as well, and the low usage factor applied to them as well in the early days of ATMs. But no one went around charging you a quarter or a fifth of your withdrawal as "fee". And had they done that, then that in itself would have ensured that volumes would never ever have increased to more sustainable levels, and the ATM business itself would have dried off eventually, or remained a very minor niche thing.

Very fly-by-night, this whole thing appears to me. And in any case, if the others are right, and the reason why users consent to pay such high fees is primarily the illegality of their money ("primarily", as opposed to 'also', the main factor as opposed to one factor among many others): well then, no doubt the provider of the service also would share, to an extent, in the illegality, even if the law hasn't yet caught up with them.


...Anyhoo. At this point, the "why" question seems a matter of guesswork, as far as I can see. But the guesses do seem not completely uninformed, and are probably correct; or at least we can take it as such until we happen to come across more detailed analyses.

Very interesting, all of this.



There's some folks here who actually work with BTC, and crypto in general --- in a big way, and not just as some very exotic minor niche in their portfolio. For instance there's this guy who's made a fortune off of it, and actually makes a living off of it, and whom I've myself interacted with -------- If you're reading this, my apologies, your name/handle escapes me just now! It might be intersting to have their first-hand take on this. That is, do they ever use ATMs like these, or do they limit their BTC transactions only to online transfers, and use regular banking channels like everyone else as far as cash? (Although, if that is the case, then at what point does the BTC actually get converted into "fiat", in their case? Or do they maybe maintain a separate "fiat" stream for cash expenses?)
 
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That is, do they ever use ATMs like these,

What possible reason would they want to pay these ridiculous fees to get some crypto? They can just use somewhere like Kraken.com and pay a fraction of a percent.

These machines aren't aimed at full time crypto gamblers, but the other end of the spectrum. The business model is: gouging the "unbanked" as they desperately tried to get in on the crypto extravaganza everyone was talking about and criminals who know that they will lose a good chunk of their capital as they clean it up.

Apart from people working in the (ever decreasing) cash economy who the hell walks around with much cash in their pockets anyway? I don't even take a card out with me anymore, just my phone. Even if you do have cash in your pocket, you're hardly going to go "ohh, I'll just stick that in this machine and pay 11% to get some BTC in my wallet". I'm also 10 clicks away from buying BTC on my phone with way less overheads and I can do it sat on the crapper, rather than finding some machine in a shopping mall.
 
What possible reason would they want to pay these ridiculous fees to get some crypto? They can just use somewhere like Kraken.com and pay a fraction of a percent.

These machines aren't aimed at full time crypto gamblers, but the other end of the spectrum. The business model is: gouging the "unbanked" as they desperately tried to get in on the crypto extravaganza everyone was talking about and criminals who know that they will lose a good chunk of their capital as they clean it up.
Apart from people working in the (ever decreasing) cash economy who the hell walks around with much cash in their pockets anyway? I don't even take a card out with me anymore, just my phone. Even if you do have cash in your pocket, you're hardly going to go "ohh, I'll just stick that in this machine and pay 11% to get some BTC in my wallet". I'm also 10 clicks away from buying BTC on my phone with way less overheads and I can do it sat on the crapper, rather than finding some machine in a shopping mall.


Basically, preying on the desparate, who just maybe sometimes still make a profit off of the volatility, and benefiting from laundering.

Surely only a matter of time, then, before the law catches up with this very dodgy business model, these weird-ass a-fifth-your-money-as-fee ATMs I mean to say.
 
You can't charge only a 3% fee when the BTC value could rise or drop by 10% the next day.

So let's say the provider buys BTC from an exchange to stock up their ATM. Then the price of BTC drops 8%. If the provider only charges say 5%, then any BTC that ATM sells is at a loss. Then a week later BTC rises by 10% and that person who purchased from the ATM comes back and sells that BTC back to the ATM at a profit for them, and a loss for the provider.

Crypto volatility necessitates higher fees to ensure you operate at a profit
 
You can't charge only a 3% fee when the BTC value could rise or drop by 10% the next day.

So let's say the provider buys BTC from an exchange to stock up their ATM. Then the price of BTC drops 8%. If the provider only charges say 5%, then any BTC that ATM sells is at a loss. Then a week later BTC rises by 10% and that person who purchased from the ATM comes back and sells that BTC back to the ATM at a profit for them, and a loss for the provider.

Crypto volatility necessitates higher fees to ensure you operate at a profit

That's not how it works. Bitcoin is not "stocked" in bitcoins. When you buy bitcoin you specify something like .0065 BTCs (about $100) or a dollar value. The transaction occurs while you optionally wait which can take half an hour or so before it's confirmed on the blockchain. The ATM provider buys from an exchange at current prices and adds the premium to it.

The premium of 10-20% reflects the low ATM volume and is needed to pay for the ATM capital and service costs.
 
Have you looked? Do a quick google search for bitcoin atm near you and let us know your results.



You get it from mining, selling a good/service, or buying it from an individual or exchange. If your ATM is both buying and selling that helps it stock itself. The price is based on what people are willing to buy or sell for plus x% as a service fee. Exchanges have the highest volume of transactions and so have the best estimate for what people are willing to buy or sell for. From what I've seen ATMs generally update pricing about once a day based on the going rate at one or more exchanges. However, you can ultimately set your exchange rate at whatever you want.



Absolutely. Exchanges definitely make it easier.



Quite the opposite. ATMs are currently much safer than exchanges. Exchanges hold a massive amount at a time, which makes them much bigger targets for hacking, and far more lucrative for scamming. With an exchange you can have your transaction go through just fine and then come back two days later and the exchange was hacked or the owners close shop and ran off with everything in your account. With an ATM if the transaction goes through then it's done and your money/btc is safe. If the next day the ATM gets hacked, your money/btc is safe. If the ATM owner decides to close shop and run off, your money/btc is safe.

They could scam you at the time of transaction, but remember that these machines are located inside normal businesses like chain gas stations who have a legal agreement to receive a fee in exchange for having them on location. It wouldn't take many scam transactions before the store boots them and their machine and possibly refers them for criminal or civil action. It's frankly less profitable to scam than to just do legitimate transactions unless the store manager/owner is in on the scam with the ATM owner.

I did, four in the whole of Cork city. One in a Texaco service station where the cash ATM may get used once every few hours, one in a small local shop where they don't even have a cash ATM (and the pictures online are generic manufacturer photos), one in one of the few internet cafes left open (where the clientelle are too poor to own tgeir own computers, never mind hodl) and the final one in a Costcutter chain convenience store. That's c200,000 people being serviced by four machines.

PS not one of the four locations is going to see a volume of usage that would make these machines anything other than a novelty. The only reason the Texaco and Costcutter shops are carrying regular ATMs is that the provider is covering the costs and paying rent.
 
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You can't charge only a 3% fee when the BTC value could rise or drop by 10% the next day.

So let's say the provider buys BTC from an exchange to stock up their ATM. Then the price of BTC drops 8%. If the provider only charges say 5%, then any BTC that ATM sells is at a loss. Then a week later BTC rises by 10% and that person who purchased from the ATM comes back and sells that BTC back to the ATM at a profit for them, and a loss for the provider.

Crypto volatility necessitates higher fees to ensure you operate at a profit


That's not how it works. Bitcoin is not "stocked" in bitcoins. When you buy bitcoin you specify something like .0065 BTCs (about $100) or a dollar value. The transaction occurs while you optionally wait which can take half an hour or so before it's confirmed on the blockchain. The ATM provider buys from an exchange at current prices and adds the premium to it.

The premium of 10-20% reflects the low ATM volume and is needed to pay for the ATM capital and service costs.


Both of your theses, your analyses, your explanations, sound completely plausible, each taken stand-alone. On the other hand, obviously those are two very different explanations, contrasting ones.

I have to ask, are you simply guessing at this, one or both of you? Which is fine, informed guesses can be useful, and both explanations work: but do we actually know what is factually true, as far as these amazing "fee" levels? (The scare quotes, because it's difficult to wrap one's head around the concept of someone charging a fifth, sometimes even a quarter, of your money, just for the privilege of withdrawing your own money!)



marting, I do see one difficulty with this thing, one obvious difficulty with how you explain it, even though otherwise it makes sense. These people who're putting up these ATMs, presumably it's not just some guy with 10K to spare, who's trying to hustle up a small income stream by setting up a solitary ATM machine; but instead a firm, a company, that puts up multiple ATMs. Same as regular ATMs, except perhaps smaller in scope. So, why on earth would they ensure that their business never ever grows, by charging such extortionate sums? Any ATM, dealing in any currency, is guaranteed low volumes, ridiculously low volumes, should they go around charging $20 to $25 per $100 withdrawn. Why not do the common sense thing, and charge more sane amounts, in the expactation that volumes will pick up, to some extent at any rate even if not as much as regular "fiat", and that those higher volumes will offset the investment and hopefully earn a profit, eventually if not immediately?

(Again, I don't really know how these things work. Do they also 'buy' BTCs, that is, can you also withdraw cash off off your BTC holdings? I'd imagine so, if they're not, as you say, buying and stocking, but simply passing it on by buying/selling afresh. Because if so, then BTC investors can use these things sometimes to withdraw regular cash. Our fellow forum member, for instance, whose name/handle still escapes me, who makes a comfortable living entirely off of his BTC and other crypto investments. That itself can be one huge boost to volumes, such withdrawals, should fees be kept at sane levels.)

Of course, to say that this kind of business model militates against common business sense, is not to say that the explanation is wrong. I mean, it is what it is. Musk's doing completely weird things, insane things, with Twitter, that defy any kind of logic, and that doesn't mean he isn't doing them. Still, these ...holes, in this kind of a business model, seem so very standout, so very obvious, that one can't help wondering about them.
 
Bitcoin Well is a public company in Canada with several hundred bitcoin ATMs. For the three months ending in September, they transacted about 13M which is a bit under $1,000/day per ATM.

This is from their latest quarterly filing:

The Company purchases bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies from cryptocurrency exchanges and applies a margin before selling it to customers
 
Interesting. Clearly volatility is not a factor, at least for Bitcoin Well. Must be a combination, then, of their cost structure, and what they can get away with.

Incidentally, these guys, Bitcoin Well, seem to charge a flat 15%. (Looks like the mining fee and priority fee also get tagged on, so add $8 per..)

Link: https://help.bitcoinwell.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039196112-What-are-the-ATM-fees-

Yeah. The daily total of one ATM's crypto transactions is pretty low. When I go to the local ATM to get cash/deposit checks, about 1/3 of the time there is another person finishing up. Usually takes less than 1 minute at the ATM. So for bitcoin ATMs they have to charge high fees just to support the cost structure.
 
There are numerous models of crypto ATMs. I've never owned one so I can't say for sure how they work but I would think they have a few features and settings that the owner can choose.

I don't doubt the machines Martin is familiar with work that way and he is correct that low transaction volume plays a part in the high fees. The information I provide is only based on what I've seen from a few machines around my area. For these, the exchange rate did not seem to be real time and instead appeared to only update once or twice a day. The transaction took the usual 30 minutes or so to get all 6 confirmation, but you could see the transaction was initiated pretty much instantly. That's why I assumed they pre purchased a certain amount of BTC to have "stocked" in a wallet so when someone does a transaction, it's immediate. It is possible though that they purchase BTC at the time of the transaction and just amp up the fee they pay in order to get their purchase done right away. If they did, that would get passed onto the customer, which would be another part of why the fees are high
 
There are numerous models of crypto ATMs. I've never owned one so I can't say for sure how they work but I would think they have a few features and settings that the owner can choose.

I don't doubt the machines Martin is familiar with work that way and he is correct that low transaction volume plays a part in the high fees. The information I provide is only based on what I've seen from a few machines around my area. For these, the exchange rate did not seem to be real time and instead appeared to only update once or twice a day. The transaction took the usual 30 minutes or so to get all 6 confirmation, but you could see the transaction was initiated pretty much instantly. That's why I assumed they pre purchased a certain amount of BTC to have "stocked" in a wallet so when someone does a transaction, it's immediate. It is possible though that they purchase BTC at the time of the transaction and just amp up the fee they pay in order to get their purchase done right away. If they did, that would get passed onto the customer, which would be another part of why the fees are high

Might depend on what the BTC ATMs are controlled by. The Bitcoin Well is several hundred ATMs so they likely cache enough BTCs in chunks from an exchange and still feed their machines reasonably frequently. But even with infrequent updating, charging 15% will still average out over time. BTC is volatile, but rarely changes more than a percent or two over a day.
 
Interesting public radio piece on "Wash Trading." Not to be confused with "Wash Sales" which is a way of taking capital losses for tax purposes.

Wash trading is where there is collusion between parties or one party with cutouts to buy and sell at increasing prices to increase apparent volume and price. However, the trades are atcually zero sum with the colluding parties risking little or no actual money. Idea is to create buzz then sell when others jump in buying.

https://www.nprillinois.org/2022-09-23/how-wash-trading-is-perpetuating-crypto-fraud

People obsessed with cryptocurrency got some news from a recent headline in Forbes, which said "More Than Half Of All Bitcoin Trades Are Fake." Paddy Hirsch and Wailin Wong from NPR's podcast The Indicator say the culprit may be an age-old practice used to manipulate markets.

This dates back before FTX's collapse. One wonders what SBF was doing with those hundred or so subsidiaries Alameda bought. Perhaps FTT? I haven't seen anything attributing FTX to BTC wash trading.
 
Interesting public radio piece on "Wash Trading." Not to be confused with "Wash Sales" which is a way of taking capital losses for tax purposes.

Wash trading is where there is collusion between parties or one party with cutouts to buy and sell at increasing prices to increase apparent volume and price. However, the trades are atcually zero sum with the colluding parties risking little or no actual money. Idea is to create buzz then sell when others jump in buying.

https://www.nprillinois.org/2022-09-23/how-wash-trading-is-perpetuating-crypto-fraud

I didn't know there was a term for this. This is basically what happened with all the NFT stuff too.
 

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