Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

psionl0 said:
Probably not but it is still a non-speculative, non-criminal use of bitcoin.
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yes, but the original challenge, at least as far as I phrased it was, what is the legal utility of Bitcoin that isn't better fulfilled by fiat currency. That last part is critical: I don't deny that Bitcoin has some utility. My point is just that it is not worth the downside that comes with Bitcoin.
 
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psionl0 said:
More likely ignorance. Most people would realize that the price of bitcoin depends on the market and not on how difficult it is to mine. The mining difficulty is a function of the bitcoin price and not the other way around.
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Yeah, but he knows this. Saylor is a bright guy but a risk taker. Check out his near disaster in 2001 where he had gone from a star on 60 Minutes, to the poster boy of stock market fraud in a few months.

Since MSTR (his biz) owns enough BTC, and borrowed real money to buy much of it, he is highly incented to disparage other crypto to pump BTC. And proof of work, with the large amount of capital miners have consumed, is the main argument he uses to do so.
 
jeremyp said:
yes, but the original challenge, at least as far as I phrased it was, what is the legal utility of Bitcoin that isn't better fulfilled by fiat currency. That last part is critical: I don't deny that Bitcoin has some utility. My point is just that it is not worth the downside that comes with Bitcoin.
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There is no "one size fits all" here. For domestic consumption, you would almost certainly use fiat every time (unless it was subject to hyperinflation).

For international transfers (especially if currency conversions are necessary) individuals may find it more convenient and cheaper to use bitcoin.
 
psionl0 said:
There is no "one size fits all" here. For domestic consumption, you would almost certainly use fiat every time (unless it was subject to hyperinflation).

For international transfers (especially if currency conversions are necessary) individuals may find it more convenient and cheaper to use bitcoin.
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My bank will let me make an international transfer for a flat fee (£15 - less for Euros) and it's more or less instantaneous these days. Can Bitcoin match that?
 
jeremyp said:
My bank will let me make an international transfer for a flat fee (£15 - less for Euros) and it's more or less instantaneous these days. Can Bitcoin match that?
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It varies depending on multiple factors but the average bitcoin transaction fee is about $1 and takes 30 minutes or less for the full 6 confirmations. You can choose to pay a higher fee to get your transaction done faster.

So at least in this regard bitcoin matches or exceeds international bank transfer.
 
The_Animus said:
So at least in this regard bitcoin matches or exceeds international bank transfer.
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I haven't done an international transfer in over 30 years, yet I've bought lots of stuff from overseas and never once had to wait for confirmation. I also sold a bit of stuff without any hassle or onerous fees. How is that possible? Perhaps all this time I've been using Bitcoin (or something better than Bitcoin) and didn't know it...

But right now I have another problem. I just turned 65, and my bank balance is mysteriously going up without me doing anything. Seems that many years ago I enrolled in a scheme called 'paying taxes', and I hodled for so long they decided I qualify for free money!

I was worried that it might be scam. Some people say they pay out with money received from new investors, and that if fewer people pay in the whole thing will collapse. But I pointed to Bitcoin as an example to show them that this won't happen. I mean, everybody's being saying it was a scam and would collapse from the beginning, and look at it now!
 
jeremyp said:
My bank will let me make an international transfer for a flat fee (£15 - less for Euros) and it's more or less instantaneous these days. Can Bitcoin match that?
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Sending money to a business overseas is usually not a problem. The business is usually set up for bulk international transfers.

It is when an individual wants to receive money from overseas that the fun starts.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
I haven't done an international transfer in over 30 years, yet I've bought lots of stuff from overseas and never once had to wait for confirmation. I also sold a bit of stuff without any hassle or onerous fees. How is that possible? Perhaps all this time I've been using Bitcoin (or something better than Bitcoin) and didn't know it...

But right now I have another problem. I just turned 65, and my bank balance is mysteriously going up without me doing anything. Seems that many years ago I enrolled in a scheme called 'paying taxes', and I hodled for so long they decided I qualify for free money!

I was worried that it might be scam. Some people say they pay out with money received from new investors, and that if fewer people pay in the whole thing will collapse. But I pointed to Bitcoin as an example to show them that this won't happen. I mean, everybody's being saying it was a scam and would collapse from the beginning, and look at it now!
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In my case when I buy something from overseas I do so with a credit card rather than a direct transfer. The credit card company takes care of the currency conversion and transfer. That said *somebody* pays for that service. AIUI the vendor will pay a fee for accepting payment from the credit card and, depending on the card and currencies used, the purchaser may end up paying a transaction fee and/or getting a comparatively poor exchange rate.

The experience I do have of receiving payments from overseas are Daddy Don's US Social Security payments and Mummy Don's book royalties from Spain, Portugal and Brazil. In both cases payment was in local currency and to receive payment in GBP involved both a transaction fee and a poor(er) exchange rate which together accounted for 2-3% of the money.
 
psionl0 said:
Sending money to a business overseas is usually not a problem. The business is usually set up for bulk international transfers.

It is when an individual wants to receive money from overseas that the fun starts.
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What I quoted were the fees that my bank would charge me as an individual for transferring money to somebody else's foreign bank account.
 
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Roger Ramjets said:
I haven't done an international transfer in over 30 years, yet I've bought lots of stuff from overseas and never once had to wait for confirmation. I also sold a bit of stuff without any hassle or onerous fees. How is that possible? Perhaps all this time I've been using Bitcoin (or something better than Bitcoin) and didn't know it...
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I was specifically talking about money transfers, not buying stuff. If I want to buy something from abroad, I just use my credit card and it is instantaneous. The fees can be a bit higher, especially if there is a currency conversion involved, but there are other advantages e.g. I am protected from fraud.
 
jeremyp said:
I was specifically talking about money transfers, not buying stuff. If I want to buy something from abroad, I just use my credit card and it is instantaneous. The fees can be a bit higher, especially if there is a currency conversion involved, but there are other advantages e.g. I am protected from fraud.
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Also worth noting is that the bitcoin version of a money transfer isn't a single step process. You fist need to buy bitcoin, they transfer it, then the person you send the money too needs to sell the bitcoin on the other end, and hope that it's value hasn't dropped since you started.
 
jeremyp said:
What I quoted were the fees that my bank would charge me as an individual for transferring money to somebody else's foreign bank account.
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And what are the fees the banks would charge you as an individual for receiving money from a foreign bank account?
 
jeremyp said:
Nothing as far as I can tell.

ETA. Nope £7 is the answer or zero for Euros.
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They may also make money out of the exchange rate as well - at least that was the case with my father's social security payment and my mother's royalty payments.
 
The Don said:
They may also make money out of the exchange rate as well - at least that was the case with my father's social security payment and my mother's royalty payments.
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As with any exchange rate, there is always a buy/sell spread. But that would apply to converting fiat currency to and from Bitcoin as well.
 
jeremyp said:
As with any exchange rate, there is always a buy/sell spread. But that would apply to converting fiat currency to and from Bitcoin as well.
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Not exactly. Typically you are not buying crypto from the exchange. You buy crypto from crypto holders, which might be also an exchange, but not necessarily.
First you deposit fiat to exchange, without conversion. But this can be subjected to fees, and it can by itself be international transfer.
Then you use this deposit to buy crypto .. but using trade mechanics. You place an order to buy, with any price you set .. and you either find a seller or not.
Exchange does not set the price .. it just tracks the price at which the trades took place recently.
On the other hand .. yes, you are most likely to find a seller if you offer to give currently traded price with some small extra, and you can usually make some form of instant order, which is basically transaction between you and the exchange at price set by exchange in similar manner.
 
Like someone said upthread, should speculators largely delink from BTC, and it's price stabilized to, I don't know, a dollar or two or five, then it might actually end up being of use as currency, even if still a niche instance. A very insightful comment, is how it struck me.

But of course, that's stating the obvious, the volatility thing. Besides, how on earth get rid of speculation? But an additional factor is the dizzying price level. Unless ways can be thought to cut it up into pieces somehow, like share splits, or some shadow currency of smaller denomination but based on BTC, the price level itself acts as a barrier to being an effective currency, over and above the rest of its shortcomings I mean. That isolated factor can be addressed, should prices fall to single digit dollar levels.
 
Chanakya said:
Unless ways can be thought to cut it up into pieces somehow, like share splits, or some shadow currency of smaller denomination . . .
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That was originally part of the design spec. The hope was that the price of bitcoin would get so high that you had to break it up into smaller units.

We have mBTC (1/1000th of a BTC), uBTC (1/1000,000th of a BTC) and the "Satoshi" (1/100,000,000th of a BTC).

At current prices, $1 USD = 57 uBTC.
 
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