Bitcoin - Part 2

[PartSkeptic]

(snip)Since blockchain entries are immutable they are much more reliable than paper records.

(snip).

No. I keep one original of a contract and give another to another person. Deeds stored in the deeds offices have been around for centuries.

I went into a store to buy an item. The woman said the power was off and she did not have backup so she could not process my purchase. I asked if she had the old credit card machines. She said it was broken. I asked if she had the carbonized slips that go in the machine. She took some out. I took my card and used a plastic pen to rub the slips to create an imprint.

The woman was impressed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain
The first work on a cryptographically secured chain of blocks was described in 1991 by Stuart Haber and W. Scott Stornetta.

Why are uses taking so long to appear?

It is pointed out that a major reason for not using block-chain for anything is that it can be quicker and cheaper using ordinary accepted methods.

 

[psionl0]

I went into a store to buy an item. The woman said the power was off and she did not have backup so she could not process my purchase. I asked if she had the old credit card machines. She said it was broken. I asked if she had the carbonized slips that go in the machine. She took some out. I took my card and used a plastic pen to rub the slips to create an imprint.

Why the reminiscing? "Carbonized slips" haven't been around for years. It is all strictly electronic.

It is pointed out that a major reason for not using block-chain for anything is that it can be quicker and cheaper using ordinary accepted methods.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Why the reminiscing? "Carbonized slips" haven't been around for years. It is all strictly electronic.

The carbonized slips were a few years ago in South Africa when we were having numerous power outages.

Your laughing dog. Do you have a reason why block-chain is not being used?

 

[psionl0]

Your laughing dog. Do you have a reason why block-chain is not being used?

Are you seriously persisting with this "it will never replace the horse and buggy" argument? The middlemen may not be enthusiastic about blockchain but that doesn't mean that blockchain technology won't become a reality.

If what you say is accurate, it took 17 years from the time that blockchain was mooted to the time that bitcoin proved that blockchain works. Even so, ignorant fools have expended a lot of energy ever since trying to convince everybody that this is just a flash in the pan. They will do the same thing each time a new application bypasses a middleman.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Are you seriously persisting with this "it will never replace the horse and buggy" argument? The middlemen may not be enthusiastic about blockchain but that doesn't mean that blockchain technology won't become a reality.

If what you say is accurate, it took 17 years from the time that blockchain was mooted to the time that bitcoin proved that blockchain works. Even so, ignorant fools have expended a lot of energy ever since trying to convince everybody that this is just a flash in the pan. They will do the same thing each time a new application bypasses a middleman.

Can it be made as convenient as a credit card while staying competitive in terms of processing fees?

Because the "horse and buggy" analogy holds if what you're proposing is the equivalent of "hoist it up on your shoulder and start walking" by comparison.

Plenty of fantastic inventions have flopped for lack of viability, despite technical functionality.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

 

[psionl0]

Can it be made as convenient as a credit card while staying competitive in terms of processing fees?

If you have been reading anything on this thread then you would be aware that micro-payments with rapid confirmation times made via mobile phones are already technically feasible. You would also be aware that I have already stated that I don't believe that crypto-currencies will take over from fiat currencies.

In case you don't know what I (or you) are talking about, I was referring to other potential uses of the blockchain. For example, I suspect that the writing is already on the wall for Uber.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

If you have been reading anything on this thread then you would be aware that micro-payments with rapid confirmation times made via mobile phones are already technically feasible. You would also be aware that I have already stated that I don't believe that crypto-currencies will take over from fiat currencies.

In case you don't know what I (or you) are talking about, I was referring to other potential uses of the blockchain. For example, I suspect that the writing is already on the wall for Uber.

Define "micro" and "rapid" or direct me to where you previously quantified these assertions if you would.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

 

[BobTheCoward]

If you have been reading anything on this thread then you would be aware that micro-payments with rapid confirmation times made via mobile phones are already technically feasible. You would also be aware that I have already stated that I don't believe that crypto-currencies will take over from fiat currencies.

In case you don't know what I (or you) are talking about, I was referring to other potential uses of the blockchain. For example, I suspect that the writing is already on the wall for Uber.

Just as long as you are not the guy snatching up all the GPUs for ethereum then we are cool.

 

[psionl0]

Define "micro" and "rapid" or direct me to where you previously quantified these assertions if you would.

That's a strange request. A few dollars or a few seconds. By "a few" I might suggest < 10 or possibly < 1.

Just as long as you are not the guy snatching up all the GPUs for ethereum then we are cool.

I'm thinking more of consensus algorithms as used in Ripple or Stellar.

POW or POS are competitive algorithms which require miners to use increasing amounts of energy to get in on the rewards.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Can it be made as convenient as a credit card while staying competitive in terms of processing fees?

Because the "horse and buggy" analogy holds if what you're proposing is the equivalent of "hoist it up on your shoulder and start walking" by comparison.

Plenty of fantastic inventions have flopped for lack of viability, despite technical functionality.

Beta vs VHS is a fantastic example of that. People tout Beta as a superior format, and that is true in terms of picture quality. What is lacked was the ability to fit a feature length movie onto one tape.

And shows how that in the marketplace best in one feature is not always what the market so wants.

So it is technically possible, though I have not seen a good argument that it passes as a practical currency with how expensive it is in terms of energy and hence utility bills to get one transaction verified. Seems hugely inefficient for the marginal benefits.

 

[blutoski]

Beta vs VHS is a fantastic example of that. People tout Beta as a superior format, and that is true in terms of picture quality. What is lacked was the ability to fit a feature length movie onto one tape.

And shows how that in the marketplace best in one feature is not always what the market so wants.

Beta vs VHS is a good example that I bring up a lot. Sony completely misunderstood the consumer user story. People turned out to want to record more than 60 minutes at a go, Sony was stuck building their equipment to the wrong specifications and the rest is history.

So it is technically possible, though I have not seen a good argument that it passes as a practical currency with how expensive it is in terms of energy and hence utility bills to get one transaction verified. Seems hugely inefficient for the marginal benefits.

Blockchain does seem like a technology looking for a massmarket problem to solve.

 

[psionl0]

Blockchain does seem like a technology looking for a massmarket problem to solve.

I never knew how much everybody loves middlemen.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I never knew how much everybody loves middlemen.

There's no middlemen with blockchain?

Maybe it's more about a straightforward comparison of what level of convenience or service is offered.

Currently I can have my funds verified and transferred to just about any proprietor within my travel area or web access capability. It will happen instantly and the cost is pennies transparently built into the markups.

Blockchain middlemen have a very limited footprint in terms of direct payment. In most cases I'll be paying a moneychanger to convert into a currency with the capabilities described above.

Why would I do that?

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

 

[ponderingturtle]

Beta vs VHS is a good example that I bring up a lot. Sony completely misunderstood the consumer user story. People turned out to want to record more than 60 minutes at a go, Sony was stuck building their equipment to the wrong specifications and the rest is history.

Especially as it is so often used as an example of the "inferior" technology winning. When it was really a case of which set of trade offs did consumers prefer.

 

[psionl0]

There's no middlemen with blockchain?

Not unless you are facetious enough to call a network of automated nodes/miners "middlemen". Use of a blockchain is not free but it is a darn sight cheaper than the human equivalent and far less prone to errors, omissions, corruption and loss of records.

Another example where the blockchain could be useful would be in electronic voting. It would instantly eliminate many forms of voter fraud (such as voting at more than one place). "Hanging chads" would be a thing of the past and a situation where the entire state of Western Australia had to go to the polls again because Senate ballot papers were lost could not happen.

You might say that existing methods of recording transactions/contracts are good enough for you. That is what people said about existing modes of transport 120 years ago.

 

[PartSkeptic]

In Sudan, desperate people are panning for gold in the streams. They trade it for food and clothes at the market. The market says that local currencies are unstable, and gold will do just fine thank you.

Bitcoin? No way. I see they just cannot get it up to 10,000. It might be the beginning of another dip, but it is so unpredictable.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

In Sudan, desperate people are panning for gold in the streams. They trade it for food and clothes at the market. The market says that local currencies are unstable, and gold will do just fine thank you.

And local currencies are unstable because... people are trading food and clothes for a useless yellow metal! Imagine an economy where everybody decided to mine Bitcoins gold instead of producing food and clothing. Billions of naked people starving to death - but rich! And still with no clue...

 

[PartSkeptic]

I came across this book yesterday. It is an amusing way to tell history. The banking run by a few individuals is scary stuff. I begin to have sympathy with the Bitcoiners like psion10. Money and markets are manipulated for financial gain. It seems one can read the whole book in the review, but I just skimmed a bit. How accurate it is I do not know.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Civilian-Counter-Terrorist-Manual-
Autobiography/dp/1425155960

American Civilian Counter-terrorist Manual: A Fictional Autobiography of Ronald Reagan (unabridged edition) is a contemporary historical novel by NYT-reviewed author, Alan Allen.

It’s 1816, Rothschild's secretly finance another privately-owned central bank, the re-chartered, or Second Bank of the United States, again plunging America into debt using fractional reserve banking, the very usury the Old Testament and Mel’s Jesus called unfair profit, usury God reviles and calls, Satanic behavior. Me and Mel’s Jesus whipped money-changers at the beginning of this chapter, remember?

 

[psionl0]

I begin to have sympathy with the Bitcoiners like psion10.

How do you define a "bitcoiner"? It would be interesting to know if you have the slightest idea of what I am posting about or why.

 

[Samson]

How do you define a "bitcoiner"? It would be interesting to know if you have the slightest idea of what I am posting about or why.

I now see a primordial universe of bitcoins and antibitcoins.