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Birthright Citizenship

Alferd_Packer said:
Actually as Thunder has defined it, "Permant resident" is the functional equivalent of citizenship. The only difference would be voting rights. A permanent resident can not vote, but then again, neither can a minor child who is a citizen.
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Frankly, minors are second-class citizens. There's a big difference between that and making adults into second-class citizens too.
 
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sol invictus said:
Denial of a constitutional right is most certainly harming someone. For example, I have the right not to be imprisoned without a fair trial of my peers. I have the right to free speech and free assembly. But according to you, denying me that "benefit" isn't harming me.
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Actually, the rights to due process and equal protection apply to everyone citizen or not, legal or not.

That is part of what the ultra-rightists want to change.
 
I also suspect that the move to repeal birthright citizenhip has a hidden agenda to rewrite the equal protection clause.
 
Drachasor said:
Frankly, minors are second-class citizens. There's a big difference between that and making adults into second-class citizens too.
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Well Thunder did allow for "permant Residents" to become citizens when they became adults. which basically leads to the question of: Why bother?

leave the system as it stands, you get the same result in the end.
 
Alferd_Packer said:
Actually, the rights to due process and equal protection apply to everyone citizen or not, legal or not.
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What I meant to illustrate was that denying people constitutional rights is obviously harmful, whereas Malerin would have us believe that taking one away (citizenship for a baby born in the US to parents later determined to have been here illegally) would merely be the removal of a benefit... and therefore not a harm.

As for due process - are people charged with immigration violations entitled to a trial by jury?
 
Thunder said:
Permanent Residents are "second-class citizens"?

wow. :p
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They're not citizens at all. They cannot vote, serve on a jury, etc. They lack the privileges and immunities that pertain to citizenship.

They are definitely a separate class of residents from citizens.
 
So back to this issue of harm caused by repealing the first section of the 14th Amendment.. . .

If proponents are proposing something that would not actually strip citizenship from current citizens, then how exactly would it be worded? How would it achieve such a distinction?

It would have to create a legal standard that only affects people born after a certain date, wouldn't it?

So it would set up a situation where someone born of illegal immigrants in the U.S. but raised completely outside the U.S. would be allowed to enter the country say 20 or 30 years later as a citizen, but it would deny citizenship to a child born and raised on U.S. soil for his or her entire life.

And this is supposed to, according to Thunder, solve an issue of unfairness?
 
sol invictus said:
What I meant to illustrate was that denying people constitutional rights is obviously harmful, whereas Malerin would have us believe that taking one away (citizenship for a baby born in the US to parents later determined to have been here illegally) would merely be the removal of a benefit... and therefore not a harm.
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And of course Malerin's argument isn't logical. Removal of a benefit (in legal terms, removal of the privileges and immunities of citizenship) is by definition a harm.

What he's trying to say is that failure to grant something isn't a harm. But that's the thing about the first section of the 14th Amendment--it isn't about granting citizenship to non-citizens. It's merely how we define who is a citizen.

As you and others have been pointing out, children born in the U.S. of illegal parents simply are citizens. They are not immigrants or foreigners who are granted citizenship.
 
Alferd_Packer said:
I also suspect that the move to repeal birthright citizenhip has a hidden agenda to rewrite the equal protection clause.
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Not to mention the Supremacy Clause. Remember, so far there isn't any proposed amendment. There is talk about various state laws that contradict the 14th Amendment.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
They're not citizens at all. They cannot vote, serve on a jury, etc. They lack the privileges and immunities that pertain to citizenship.

They are definitely a separate class of residents from citizens.
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There are those that would argue that not having to serve on a jury is a privlege.
 
Other than the right to vote and the duty to serve on a jury, what are the differences between a citizen and a non-citizen?
 
Alferd_Packer said:
Other than the right to vote and the duty to serve on a jury, what are the differences between a citizen and a non-citizen?
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Can't hold public office.
Can't work for US Government
Can be deported.
Can't get a concealed carry permit for a gun.
Can't leave the states for as long as you want and come back any time.
Have to renew permanent resident status every 10 years

ETA: May be able to work some US Gov jobs, but not any requiring security clearance.
 
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Alferd_Packer said:
Other than the right to vote and the duty to serve on a jury, what are the differences between a citizen and a non-citizen?
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Non-citizens can't serve in the military as commissioned or warrant officers or hold most public offices or even get many levels of government jobs. (And wouldn't be conscripted if we re-instated the draft.) (OTOH, even some citizens aren't eligible for some offices. Scharzenneger couldn't be elected POTUS without a constitutional amendment to change the requirement that the president be a native-born citizen.)

I personally know of a Canadian citizen who grew up in the U.S. and became a medical professional. Even though she was heavily recruited, because of her status as a non-citizen, she couldn't get a job at the VA.

I don't think this is an exhaustive list of the privileges and benefits of citizenship.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Non-citizens can't serve in the military as commissioned or warrant officers or hold most public offices or even get many levels of government jobs. (And wouldn't be conscripted if we re-instated the draft.) (OTOH, even some citizens aren't eligible for some offices. Scharzenneger couldn't be elected POTUS without a constitutional amendment to change the requirement that the president be a native-born citizen.)

I personally know of a Canadian citizen who grew up in the U.S. and became a medical professional. Even though she was heavily recruited, because of her status as a non-citizen, she couldn't get a job at the VA.

I don't think this is an exhaustive list of the privileges and benefits of citizenship.
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Permanent residents are eligible for the draft. Currently they have to register for the draft.
 
Spindrift said:
Permanent residents are eligible for the draft. Currently they have to register for the draft.
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I stand corrected.

Perhaps most important is the one you mentioned: their status is at the whim of the INS. They can have their status revoked and be deported. They have to constantly update the INS if they change address and so on.
 
Spindrift said:
Can't hold public office.
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What normal person wants to?

Can't work for US Government
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I do not believe thatthat is true. Resident Aliens and non citizens work for the government all the time.

Can be deported.
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Where? If you are a permanent resident alien who was born in this country where would they deport you to?


Can't get a concealed carry permit for a gun.
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Is that going to stop anyone from doing it? Is your a crook, then no. If you are not a crook, then why would you want to?


Can't leave the states for as long as you want and come back any time.
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A permanent resident alien of the sort Thunder is proposing would not have any restrictions on travel

Have to renew permanent resident status every 10 years
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Or what? If you were born here, they cant deport you to the place of your birth.

ETA: May be able to work some US Gov jobs, but not any requiring security clearance.
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I tink that you can even get some jobs requiring security clearance as an alien, but it would be a case by case thing.

There are only three things that Thuder's Permanent Resident Alien propsosal would reall effect, the right to vote, Jury duty and the right to a U.S. Passport.
 
Of course if you were really cynical and conspiracy minded, you could claim that the whole GOP push to get rid of birthright citizenship is nothing more than a plot to disenfrancise potential democratic voters.
 
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