Bioelectromagnetics

cogreslab said:
...Please find enclosed some more research references supplied direct from Professor Olle Johansson.
...snip diatribe
So you can manage to google practically endless quotes of diatribe unrelated to the discussion going on, but are unable to recall the results of your own experiments?

I've just spent 2 sets of days trolling through records dating back to the 1960's, the second set in French which I don't speak or read well, and was able to achieve the task laid in front of me, yet you have not been able to supply evidence of "other websites" misquoting your second Harmoniser experiment from when you were first asked about it on this forum in February.

Pretty classic avoidance by you, Mr.Coghill.

Here's a reminder of my first review of your "experiment" that you have been ignoring since June:

"The results showed that the protected cells enjoyed much higher post exposure viability compared with cells which do not have the benefit of the Harmoniser. Furthermore it did not seem to matter that the water in the Harmoniser had been imploded more than a year prior to the study, or that the Harmoniser had itself been previously exposed to ambient radiation. This study therefore confirmed the results of a previous study and leads us to conclude that the device lives up to its protective claims"

What part of the above quote, which is repeated on the CIR site as an endorsement, conveys the message that "The second Harmoniser results were not very strong.."?

Furthermore, the data is misrepresented at this statement, in my opinion, in order to give this positive result for your customer. Here is the table of data quoted with this statement (as an example of the deplorable reporting standards throughout this "study"

As an example, the very first table in the summary section at the start of the report states:



Cell Numbers Viable (%) Non-Viable Total

Protected by Harmoniser 433 (72.8%) 162 595

Mu metal shielded* 384 (60.9%) 246 630


*standardised to same vol. as protected cells

1. Why was it necessary to standardise the samples to the same volume?
2. HOW was this "standardisation performed?
3. Why do the numbers, for either category, not match those presented in "Table 1. Summarised results"

Here is the raw count as per Table 1.

Cell Numbers Viable (%) Non-Viable Total

Protected by Harmoniser 500 (71.1%) 203 703

Mu metal shielded* 346 (71.2%) 140 486


* (My annotation) As stated in the first line of the Discussion section:
"An examination of the four controls (1-4) suggests that the cells least perturbed, i.e. encased in triple skinned mu-metal..."

At this point I withold my judgement on the above in anticipation of you explaining the discrepancies between the results shown and your summation of same. Certainly 71.1% compared to 71.2% does NOT support your statement,
""The results showed that the protected cells enjoyed much higher post exposure viability compared with cells which do not have the benefit of the Harmoniser."


quote:
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As I have said elsewhere, that we advertise this product at all is marginal to us, and of no impact on our activities.
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While you may claim to have no financial interest in the sale of the product, you certainly should have an interest in your "studies" being used to advertise it,
http://www.implosionresearch.com/cir1/testimonials.pdf
"The Mobile Phone Personal Harmoniser has a significantly protective effect against exposure to electromagnetic fields and radiations from mobile phones."

quote:
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It seemed to me that the reason for introducing the Harmoniser work was simply to brand me as a fraud, rather than as a researcher. Then later to criticise its methodology as typical of our published work.

You have yet to show us cause to think otherwise. Would you care to address the data misrepresentation in this second "experiment"?
The taske ohome message is that we do not reject anything simply because it seems counterintuitive, but giv these devices a fair trial in a scientific scenario where no one else is prepared to do so for fear of being branded a nutcase. We have no axe to grind either way re the Harmoniser or any other of the devices which pop up from time to time.
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This is the point Mr.Coghill. Your studies are NOT fair trials. My criticism so far has been on the sloppiness in your reports which misrepresent and obfuscate the results of your studies.

The unfounded conclusions of which are then quoted as endorsments of products that what you have already admitted to be no better than talismans or placebos.

I await clarification of the data, before getting properly stuck in to this report.

I fully expect you to continue to to ignore this - but don't expect me to give up.
 
EHocking said:
The unfounded conclusions of which are then quoted as endorsments of products that what you have already admitted to be no better than talismans or placebos.
Thank you, EHocking. This argument isn't primarily about whether or not mobile phones are dangerous. It's about Roger's outrageous advertising of quack devices he claims to have some significant biological effect.

Of course, his hyping up of the "dangers" of mobile phones to support this marketing is also an issue, and there is the obvious point that if there is no danger then the "protection" is spurious anyway. But he can't get away with saying, look, there is some evidence that mobile phones may not be entirely safe, therefore all my activities are totally vindicated.

Roger is marketing and promoting nonsense quackery, based on joke science, and this is the ball that the eye needs to stay on.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Thank you, EHocking. This argument isn't primarily about whether or not mobile phones are dangerous. It's about Roger's outrageous advertising of quack devices he claims to have some significant biological effect.

Of course, his hyping up of the "dangers" of mobile phones to support this marketing is also an issue, and there is the obvious point that if there is no danger then the "protection" is spurious anyway. But he can't get away with saying, look, there is some evidence that mobile phones may not be entirely safe, therefore all my activities are totally vindicated.

Roger is marketing and promoting nonsense quackery, based on joke science, and this is the ball that the eye needs to stay on.

Rolfe.
Frankly, I'm getting tired of waiting for a response from Mr.Coghill and am considering sending my questions directly to Implosion Research and the other sites and clients that are hosting his experimental "research" and ask them to comment on the errors and misrepresentation that they are promoting.

It's pretty sad when usenet/forum contents go RL though...
 
Just giving this thread another bump to remark that on Roger's web site two links are now noted as "Removed by request of MHRA 13 Sept 2004". (MRHA is the Medicine and Healthcare products Regulatory Authority, which among other things would deal with illegitimate therapeutic claims.)

Anybody know what he's been forced to remove? Anybody know how the MHRA found out about it? :D

Rolfe.
 
I notice that his lies about me are still there, athough he said he would change it. Ahh, well they still say more about him than about me.

Hans
 
I think one of the removed items is that "Asphalia" stuff which was referred to earlier in the thread, and which people speculated looked like a breach of the Medicines Act. There is still a mention of Asphalia on another page but it is a link to another site which no longer works.

Anybody notice anything else gone? Anybody want to confess to shopping Roger? :D

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Just giving this thread another bump to remark that on Roger's web site two links are now noted as "Removed by request of MHRA 13 Sept 2004". (MRHA is the Medicine and Healthcare products Regulatory Authority, which among other things would deal with illegitimate therapeutic claims.)

Anybody know what he's been forced to remove? Anybody know how the MHRA found out about it? :D

Rolfe.

I have an old image-copy of his site from April 29th, 2004. Want it, so you can check out what is missing?
 
You can see a Feb 2004 version thanks to archive.org here. A handy site.

Comparing the menus shows that links to "Melatonin from T-cells" and "Protection (RF and ELF)" appear to be removed. The melatonin page recommends melatonin as a supplement.

Other changes include the addition of "Skeptics Corner" and "Beyond Normal Science" and a removal of "Spiritualism" from the menu.

Edit to add: the Protection link goes to a site selling "asphalia" protection. archive.org is a bit slow...
 
Rolfe said:
Please!

I don't know how to organise this, but I'm determined we find a way.

Rolfe.
Using the Internet Wayback Machine ( web.archive.org ), the changes since February are the removal of links to their "Melatonin from T-cells! (New)" and "Protection ( RF and ELF) (New)" products and "research.
reference is: http://web.archive.org/web/20040206040819/http://cogreslab.co.uk/

Also the Asphalia range has been removed from their Galonga online shop.
 
Great minds think alike! Thank you both. OK Claus, you can stand down.

The "Protection Products" bit is Asphalia when you actually click on the link, and I should have guessed that the other one was the melatonin. Funny, he was lecturing on melatonin to his local branch of the IoB in March, I wonder what they think of this?

Clearly, the MHRA have cracked down on the therapeutic claims for actual ingestable products, but I don't think they have any remit to do the same for the quack magnets as these aren't actually being swallowed. You know, if I'd been told to take that down by the MRHA, I wouldn't be advertising the fact.

I recall earlier in this thread remarking that I knew of someone who had been kicked out of the Institute of Biology for getting a criminal conviction for advertising unlicensed medicinal products with improper therapeutic claims. As it happens, that was allergy desensitising products, and it was under the veterinary section of the legislation, enforced by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate. I only meant, look pseudoscientist, it's possible to get the boot you know. But Roger started blustering, what did I mean, he was doing nothing like that.

Of course he was, and people on the thread pointed it out. The MHRA is the human equivalent of the VMD, and OK they haven't prosecuted him, but the parallels are uncanny.

I wonder who shopped him? Could have been nothing to do with this thread of course, it was blatant enough in all conscience.

Rolfe.
 
Bump, because I'm trying to read this lot (for reasons which I hope may become obvious), and I keep losing it.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Bump, because I'm trying to read this lot (for reasons which I hope may become obvious), and I keep losing it.

Rolfe.

Rolfe, my commiserations, ANYONE would lose it reading this thread! Although of course nobody could lose it to the extent that Roger did! :D
 
Pragmatist said:
Rolfe, my commiserations, ANYONE would lose it reading this thread! Although of course nobody could lose it to the extent that Roger did! :D
The moment I clicked the "submit" button, I could see that one staring at me! But I chose not to edit it, it was too deliciously close to the truth!

Rolfe. On page 16 and struggling.
 
Rolfe said:
The moment I clicked the "submit" button, I could see that one staring at me! But I chose not to edit it, it was too deliciously close to the truth!

Rolfe. On page 16 and struggling.

Oh just wait until page 36 when the aliens land... opps sorry giving the plot away.

And you'll never guess the ending... ;)
 
Darat said:
Oh just wait until page 36 when the aliens land... opps sorry giving the plot away.

And you'll never guess the ending... ;)

Was that before or after the bit where the world gets taken over by flying moth spectrophotometers? :)

By the way Darat, did you ever get a reply from your MP to your enquiry?

Darat said:
I took the opportunity to also ask him do committees ask for disclosure of any commercial conflict of interest in their experts and shown him how Roger has such a potential conflict of interest (and mentioned Roger's challenge and asked is this the sort of behaviour expected from a expert advisor).

And Rolfe, your comment prompted me to go back and re-read a few of the more hilarious bits myself. But it's addictive, the thread should have a health warning on it! Some 40 pages later (all I could stand in one sitting) I now have a headache, an insatiable urge to giggle hysterically and curl up into a ball and hide under the bed! I blame YOU for that! :D
 
Pragmatist said:
Was that before or after the bit where the world gets taken over by flying moth spectrophotometers? :)

By the way Darat, did you ever get a reply from your MP to your enquiry?

Just a standard "your communication has been received by x's office" and then nothing else.

Which reminds me I was going to look into what my MP actually does.

(Edited to add.)

It's strange but I only seem to get responses from people that Roger doesn't think much of. His favourite experts seem not to respond...
 
Darat said:
Just a standard "your communication has been received by x's office" and then nothing else.

Which reminds me I was going to look into what my MP actually does.

(Edited to add.)

It's strange but I only seem to get responses from people that Roger doesn't think much of. His favourite experts seem not to respond...

Pity! Hmm..maybe we need to start a database of public representatives who actually act (or not) on skeptical information, might give them something to think about if they realise that inaction is noted by the voters...

I don't blame the others for not responding, would YOU want your name associated with Roger's ideas? :)
 
Going through this thread again, I'm amazed by Roger's almost 100% record in getting it wrong. To be so consistently wrong about virtually everything to do with either electromagnetics or biology surely takes real skill. I found a few that nobody even called him on. For example:
Easy bruising is also a feature of leukaemias, as is pallor, both indicators of a restricted blood circulation and lowered O2 bioavailability. I will soon explain how ELF electric fields have a part to play in these events e.g. via induction of bradycardia.
Anybody think the word "thrombocytopenia" would mean anything to Roger? (For the non-biologists - leukaemia involves the bone marrow being taken over by cancer cells. As a result the normal bone marrow cells which produce the cellular elements of the blood are crowded out and can't compete. Thus the cellular elements of the blood become deficient, that is the red cells, the white cells and the platelets. The lack of red cells causes the pallor, and also causes lowered O<sub>2</sub> bioavailability if you want to put it like that, I'd say tissue hypoxia, note the confusion of cause and effect again, and the lack of platelets causes a bleeding tendency.)

This is basic third year medical student stuff. It's a no-brainer. Where Roger gets his nonsense I really have no idea, but it has no relationship to biological reality.

This morning I had a letter from the IoB, marked "private and confidential". In it was a request to give a reference for a colleague who is applying for membership status. There are two pages of detailed questions to answer about the applicant's qualifications, knowledge, experience, scientific credentials and general worthiness to be admitted. There's no way anyone telling the truth about Roger would have got him in. Admittedly I didn't see a line about "please confirm that the applicant is not a raving woo and nutter who frightens the public by spouting pseudoscientific scare-stories then cashes in by selling them useless talismans to protect against this imagined danger", but the general thrust would tend to exclude such fraudsters.

I wonder who vouched for Roger when he got in?

Rolfe.
 
For some reason my emails have not been receiving alerts of new posts on this site, so I have only just caught up with the recent arguments by Anders.

It astonishes me that Anders claims I do not follow science when it comes to magnet therapy! There are also hundreds of studies showing effects of static magnets on biological systems, in cluding clinical trials of effects on patients with chronic pain. Pointing to references is the normal way science supports its argument, a procedutre which some posters do not wish to follow, presumably because their own denials are too weak to find any peer reviewed support. If the skeptic community is not prepared to consider the results of peer reviewed scientific studies in assessing an issue then I will not have much respect for their judgements.

MRC Hans criticises me for providing such references copiously but is very short on any argument himself, except that based on denigration. Pity. I had hoped better from him. And I notice the same old themes are being trotted out, even when exhaustively disproved, e.g. this BS about my not having any biology degree from the 1960s - as if that were relevant in a science which did not at that time even exist!

As for the issue of brain tumour incidence, and the science linking it to EMF, has no one been reading the news? The Karolinska have just released a study showing an elecvated incidence of acoustic neuroma associated with analogue cellphone use (Ahlbom et al., 2004) This study confirmed what George Carlo's group funded by the cellphone industry had reported over five years before.
 

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