Bioelectromagnetics

cogreslab said:
To PJ: You know, it might even go a little way to removing the impression you give of exaggerated over reaction if you actually dispensed with the UVJs ("lies...technobabble") and offered a calm recitation of where you think my points to Leeka are in error.

Oh for God's sake. It's the same old babble you've been spouting since day 1. Each of the points has been completely scientfically demolished about 20 times over and you are STILL unaware of what the points of contention are?

QED #4
 
Well, the main debate would be:

How do your trinkets protect people from the harm caused by low frequency EM Radiation ?

Or any other radiation
 
cogreslab said:
"Oops, too many errors in quick succession. Quick, change the subject Rog! "

I would prefer to use the expression "pedantic distractions". Moulder's Q9 returns us to the main debate, just in case you start a new series of posts on everything else you can seize upon except the subject of my letter itself, (which no one has yet addressed).
How about posting the transcript of your presentation in Instanbul?

SInce it is already written, it shouldn't take much of your time to post here. We'd be MUCH more interested in commenting on that, I'm sure.
 
cogreslab said:
Are you joking! Leeka's to-be-vacant post was well advertised by Mike Repacholi throughout the BEMS community for ages before she left. You have to realise this is a small community, and most of us have been in the field for at least ten years, and meet continually at conferences across the globe. Moreover there is a good deal of cross domicile: e.g. right now Rick Saunders from the NRPB is spending a secondment year at WHO, and not so long ago Ben Greenebaum from Wisconsin spent a year or so there.
As if that were not enough, the proceedings of the Istanbul conference carries the name and address of all participants. For a brief moment I had hoped that one of you might have a better insight into the issues than was obviously the case. When I realised almost immediately that it was once again simply relying on some web site posting, and not on personal contact I changed the post.

I see. So you were perfectly aware that she WASN'T at WHO when you said she was at WHO? Sounds like an intentional lie to me then.

And anyone who has ever had any contact with anyone in the Bioelectromagnetics circles who just happens to disagree with you is an evil conspirator...?

Keep digging Rog!
 
cogreslab said:
"Funny though that I could find that in 10 seconds on Google, yet our Rog, who has allegedly just returned from a WHO meeting in Istanbul DIDN'T know it?"

Are you joking! Leeka's to-be-vacant post was well advertised by Mike Repacholi throughout the BEMS community for ages before she left. You have to realise this is a small community, and most of us have been in the field for at least ten years, and meet continually at conferences across the globe. Moreover there is a good deal of cross domicile: e.g. right now Rick Saunders from the NRPB is spending a secondment year at WHO, and not so long ago Ben Greenebaum from Wisconsin spent a year or so there.
As if that were not enough, the proceedings of the Istanbul conference carries the name and address of all participants. For a brief moment I had hoped that one of you might have a better insight into the issues than was obviously the case. When I realised almost immediately that it was once again simply relying on some web site posting, and not on personal contact I changed the post.

Dodger,

Stop it, I just spat out my beer. You know Leeka's no longer at WHO, but you post here a letter that you claim you just wrote to Leeka at WHO?

Why on earth should we believe a word you write to us here? Why, dodger?
 
How about posting the transcript of your presentation in Instanbul?

Since I didn't make any presentation in Istanbul, nor claimed to do so, that would be difficult. Yet another product of your overreactive and totally fictionalising imagination. If you cannot find any facts to criticise you simply invent them.

Living in those castles in the air again?
 
"points of contention".

Since I have now offered good supporting peer reviewed evidence for the points I made in my letter, I am wondering just how many disputed points remain.
 
"And anyone who has ever had any contact with anyone in the Bioelectromagnetics circles who just happens to disagree with you is an evil conspirator...?".

No. Not only do quite a few agree with me anyway, but the term evil conspirator is entirely your own. I used the adjectives obfuscatory, procrastinatory and downright deceptive, and even then confined them to one group. There are plenty of us who disagree honourably in this, as in any other science. Another example of your hyperbolic overstatements .
 
cogreslab said:
No. Not only do quite a few agree with me anyway,


Argumentum ad populum.


but the term evil conspirator is entirely your own.


Straw man.


I used the adjectives obfuscatory, procrastinatory and downright deceptive, and even then confined them to one group.


Ad hominem


There are plenty of us who disagree honourably in this, as in any other science.


Ad populum, appeal to irrelevant authority, no true scotsman


Another example of your hyperbolic overstatements .
Ad hominem.

*&(*& That's impressive, Roger. Do you do that on purpose, have at least one rhetorical fallacy per sentence?
 
cogreslab said:
"points of contention".

Since I have now offered good supporting peer reviewed evidence for the points I made in my letter, I am wondering just how many disputed points remain.

Outright lie.
 
cogreslab said:
To PJ: Leeka is at UCLA Dept of Epidemiology now, which is where I sent the letter. Anyway, she is also going to be at BEMS. She is charged with the job of writing up the summary of the WHO meeting.

Earlier quote from Roger:

As a means of summarising the argument todate as it is emerging on this thread i have copied the letter I just wrote to Leeka Kheifets at WHO below:

Liar!


PS: Please do not allege that I had anything to do with the Ladycare ads or trials. I simply asked for your views in these, and I am inclined to agree with some of them myself.

Nobody alleged it (liar again), we simply laughed our asses off at the silly references you made :roll:

Hans
 
cogreslab said:
EH said:

"Therein lies Mr.Coghill's cunning.

Upon NOT receiving a response from WHO he can then rant and rave about his concerns being ignored and consiracy theories".

Wrong again, EH! I sent the letter to Leeka as indicated in the post above. Though I doubt I will see a retraction from you. These pejorative statements and UVJs which turn out to be unfounded have seriously undermined not only this thread but the credibility of the whole skeptic movement, I am sad to say. I can see why you seek the former, but am puzzled that you also pursue the latter, against the interests of this group.
YOU wrote that you sent it to the WHO. Only later when it was pointed out that Leeka is no longer at WHO did you change your statement. Interestingly, in your post about the Istanbul conferene you do mention that Leeka is no longer at WHO, so you knew this all along. Which means that your claim of posting a lettter to the WHO was most likely a lie.

Keep digging, Roger ;). (yes anybody can use it, heheh)

Hans
 
cogreslab said:
"points of contention".

Since I have now offered good supporting peer reviewed evidence for the points I made in my letter, I am wondering just how many disputed points remain.
We could make a list.

Lets see:

The mechanism for how eletric fields influence the human body.

The rationale for dismissing electromagnetic studies.

The mode of action for the Harmonizer device.

The use of poor statistics in the harmonizer experiment.

The use of poor protocol in the childhood leukemia survey.

.... I think we could go on for quite some length, but perhaps this will suffice for a while.

Hans
 
cogreslab said:
"Oops, too many errors in quick succession. Quick, change the subject Rog! "

I would prefer to use the expression "pedantic distractions". Moulder's Q9 returns us to the main debate, just in case you start a new series of posts on everything else you can seize upon except the subject of my letter itself, (which no one has yet addressed).
I don't know why you say we have not addressed the subject of the letter (yes I know; it is because you are a habitual liar), we have addressed all the points ad nauseam in this thread, and you just act as if nothing has happened. That letter simply contains all your olde claims that have long ago been turned inside out by us.

But, let's take them again. I won't bother with all the fluff in that letter, so state one claim at a time, and we'll take them on again.

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
I don't know why you say we have not addressed the subject of the letter (yes I know; it is because you are a habitual liar), we have addressed all the points ad nauseam in this thread, and you just act as if nothing has happened. That letter simply contains all your olde claims that have long ago been turned inside out by us.

But, let's take them again. I won't bother with all the fluff in that letter, so state one claim at a time, and we'll take them on again.

Hans

I was going to do exactly that Hans, but then I started thinking about a few things and stopped. Here are some of the thoughts/questions I had:

1. Roger knew that Leeka whatever wasn't at WHO yet pretended to send a letter as though she was. He lied. But why? Why does he want us to think he is writing to the WHO?

2. Why on earth would he want to post HERE a letter he is sending (allegedly) to the WHO?

3. The letter is the same old rubbish we have demolished 20 times. Even if he doesn't accept the criticisms and even taking his apparent capacity for comprehension into account, Roger knows full well what we object to and why. So why bring it up yet AGAIN?

4. Roger claims to have been doing the same thing for at least 15 years. So in all that 15 years he has never made his "position" clear to the WHO? Remember he attends all WHO events etc., or claims to.

5. He claims to know this woman personally, and he believes SHE doesn't know what his "position" is? Why else would he need to write her a letter now, saying exactly what he claims he has been saying for 15 years?

Now, thinking about these things, the first thing I infer is that the letter doesn't exist or is a red herring. There is no NEED for him to send any letter to the WHO (or to Leeka whatever). And even if there was, it would be lunacy to post it here since he is fully aware of our objections to his claims. So I conclude that he's trying to play some silly game here. And I for one WON'T play his game.

So this begs the question, what is the game?

Some possible suggestions:

a) He hopes to impress some casual reader that he knows somebody at the WHO.

b) He hopes to slip through his claims unchallenged in some other guise (this time it's an alleged letter). In which case it should NOT go unchallenged but why should we waste time demolishing each point in detail AGAIN?

c) He wants to stretch the thread out as much as possible. Possible reasons for that are he wants to make the thread so large and intimidating that it will put off new readers and his lies will not be seen. Or he wants to claim that after 2000 odd posts in a battle with skeptics, the matter was STILL not settled, thus (allegedly) proving that he could "hold his own" against the skeptics who couldn't even "defeat" him after thousands of posts. Rubbish of course, but exactly the kind of thing he has claimed in the past.

d) He wants to divert us and draw attention away from something MUCH more damaging that came up recently.

e) He's trying a "war by attrition" he hopes that if he just repeats the same rubbish endlessly that we'll get bored and go away leaving him free to make ridiculous claims unchallenged at the end the thread. Of course I AM bored, but I for one won't go away and leave him unchallenged. At the same time I don't see why we have to keep readdressing the same rubbish in great detail over and over again. Maybe it's time to just say "You've been proven wrong, stop lying".

Maybe others have some ideas of their own. But I would be inclined to say that the specific issues he keeps re-raising are closed. They have been proven false and all that is needed is a reminder of where the demolitions are rather than addressing them in great detail time and again.
 
Point 1 is very telling as Roger has been caught in a deliberate lie one way or the other.

Either he knew she was no longer at WHO and said she was, or he did not know, but has claimed that he did know. Bizarre.

I get the feeling Roger has gone through all of his ideas and the stage has been reached where repetition has fully taken over.

His ladycare post was interesting as it was for us to "mull over" whilst he went away. The excellent demolition by messeur Hans and Pragmatist caused him to distance himself from the study immediately. Why present it for discussion when it was so obviously bad in the first place. (It had magnets in - ahh).

I don't know but the thread is fascinating and informative.

PJ
 
cogreslab said:
As a means of summarising the argument todate as it is emerging on this thread i have copied the letter I just wrote to Leeka Kheifets at WHO below:

Dear Leeka,

ELF Electric fields and childhood cancer epidemiology

As promised I am writing a few words regarding ELF electric fields and the importance I believe should be attached to making these a priority for epidemiological research in WHO’s EMF project.
Person not at WHO, probable lie

The basic situation in bioelectromagnetics research today as I see it is that we have found a persistent association between ELF magnetic fields and childhood cancer,
FALSE/LIE

as well as some evidence of association with other cancers and with non-cancer disorders,
POSSIBLE association

but no accepted mechanism of interaction between the ELF magnetic component and .organisms. By converse contrast, the electric component offers a goodly number of plausible biological mechanisms
FALSE for external fields

(depolarisation of the inner mitochondrial membrane thereby inhibiting ATP synthesis,
Unlikely

inhibition of melatonin synthesis,
Only possibly true for rodents in rotating fields, not humans

effects on lymphocyte competence,
Unproven in vivo

effects on enzyme activity, etc.) but little epidemiology has ever been done regarding residential electric field exposure.

When one examines more closely why this gap should be, (given there is no relation at ELF frequencies between the magnetic and the electric component,
FALSE/LIE

so no magnetic field study can say anything about electric field associations)
FALSE/LIE

the excuses one finds are not very convincing.
No proof of "excuses"

I won’t go back as far as the Wertheimer study, except to say that she made a fundamental mistake in assigning blame on the magnetic component when the overriding effect near downward transformers is the creation of large electric fields..
discredited study, 25 years old, irrelevant, study did not address ANY specific fields, no evidence of claim about electric fields, highly improbable in any event

This would be a plausible explanation of the sometime-called wire code paradox.
Nonsense

When David Savitz and Howard Wachtel came to try measuring electric fields they had to give up through an inability to collect good data, but even so there is an extrapolative hint in what they did publish that in full power conditions an elevation of around 1.7 times was discernable..
Nonsense, contradictory

Stephanie London and her colleagues at South California only reported spot measurements, which are of course of little representative value (see a typical 24 hours chart of electric field strength enclosed and how it varies over the course of a day).
No such thing as "typical" chart

Electric fields near appliances mean that locally the E-field can vary considerably in any room. Most studies take spot measurements at room centre, where the wiring is likely to be minimal,
Not true, most rooms have central light

as is the presence of appliances, moreover. Martha Linet‘s study for NCI offered an over-brief argument that the evidence for an electric field measurement was too weak to apply NCI funds in its collection during that study, but she really misrepresented the albeit scanty evidence erroneously in my view ( as well as mis-referencing our own study).

McBride and Gallagher could not properly capture electric field data with the portable instruments their subjects were wearing, and in any case the bedplace measurements were thereby diluted. So that only leaves the UKCCCR results, and our 1996 study, which found a five-fold elevation using an ELF electric field cut-off point at 20 V/m (not anything like as rarely found in homes as the 0.4 uT used for the magnetic field cut off point in other studies).

The UKCCCR electric field data were also not representative of bedplace exposure (arguably the site where children are most chronically exposed for long periods each night), because the UKCCCR statistician used spot electric field measurements during the day and 48 hours mean electric field levels for periodic analysis. This latter meant that there was a dilution to one third of the nocturnal exposure, so that too was unrepresentative, and unsurprisingly the UKCCCR study therefore found no elevation of incidence. It would be interesting to see the results of re-analysing their data to reflect only 12 hours of nocturnal exposure, say between 2000 hrs and 0800hrs the next day, as we did in our investigation.

The only other epidemiological study reflecting any kind of electric field metric was the large tri-utility occupational one from McGill which reported a high incidence when electric fields were incorporated into the argument.
Most epi studies show no association

Laboratory studies on melatonin also show the impact of electric fields. Kato has pointed out that circularly polarised fields have 40 percent higher induced current densities than linear fields, thereby also implicating the higher electric fields which arise from such current densities.
applies to ROTATING magnetic field in rodents, not humans, no evidence of E field involvement, E field argument predicated on contradictory circular logic

In general moreover, though there may be a net zero voltage electric fields are present in home wiring all the time, whereas magnetic fields are only present when the appliances etc are actually in use,
FALSE/LIE

which means more chronic exposure by far from electric than from magnetic fields.
Extremely unlikely

I do not wish to prolong this argument indefinitely,
FALSE/LIE

though there is much more evidence from cellular and live animal studies to support the idea of an electric field metric as a bioactive parameter in childhood cancers,
FALSE/LIE

such as Morris, Kendall et al’s 1989 statistical analysis of 40 experiments from 6 labs, where they found significant effects on lymphocytes exposed to ELF electric fields.
Old data, statistics alone not proof

And one should not forget Bob Liburdy’s exonerated 1992 FASEB study reporting the importance of an electric field metric,
FALSE/LIE

or Martin Blank’s work on electric field effects on HSP70 at Columbia.

In the 1980s I carried out a large study of infant death in central London in relation to proximity to sources of EMF, and found a statistically significant relationship.
Doesn't understand statistics, thinks n=1 is statistics

Subsequent measurements in locations where these hapless infants had died confirmed the finding, but I have never published these, hoping one day for a larger study. I was disappointed that Maria Feycvhting omitted this endpoint from her review of non cancer effects.
hype

The purpose of setting this down is to suggest to WHO, who have not updated their review of electric fields for some 17 years,
Suggest to WHO by writing to someone NOT at WHO? Probable lie

that such a review is now very overdue, and that moreover an epidemiological study concentrating on ELF electric field measurement in the bedlplaces of children (or adults for that matter) with cancer or related disorders might prove to provide a new and important insight into the issue of weak electromagnetic field effects.
Self contradictory, claims no relation between E/B now says "electromagnetic field"

That EMDEX instruments do not normally include electric field probes (I wonder why!) should not prevent such a study form being carried out.

After all, as Shandala pointed out in his 1988 review of the Russian literature in Andy Marino’s Modern Electricity, human beings live and have evolved in a large geomagnetic field, so if anything has changed with the advent of electricity it is the electric and not the magnetic component.
FALSE/LIE

With kind regards,

Roger Coghill

The usual tripe! Just for completeness. I've given it all the attention it deserves.
 
The Don said:
Well, the main debate would be:

How do your trinkets protect people from the harm caused by low frequency EM Radiation ?

Or any other radiation
Just touching base after having to spend time on some real science.

I think the Don has rather put his finger on it here. I find it difficult to figure out how any sort of mechanism of action for these trinkets can possibly be postulated given that we have no plausible mechanism of harm, and indeed no plausible evidence of significant harm, but I'd still like to hear it.

Seems to me this was abandoned shortly after a cryptic post from Roger about the spiral shape of the trinket, in reply to some remarks about the variation in lymphocyte size, and we never really got the chance to show that one to the laughing dog. Infra-red radiation, if I recall correctly? As it's nearly Wimbledon, perhaps I may remark, "You canNOT be SERIOUS!!!!"

Interesting as all this pseudoscience may be, and interesting also as Roger's credulous acceptance of the pseudoscience of others may be, the main point at issue here is the commercial promotion of quack medical devices. Lie and swindle devices if you like.

Let's keep our eye on the ball.

I feel that Roger's classical education may be a major part of the problem here. He spouts the most appalling rubbish in a very convincing voice, giving an admirable impersonation of a scientist who actually knows what he's talking about. This does tend to fool the unwary into giving the speaker more credibility than he deserves, especially when the unwary is outside his own subject - of course, to biologists, this magnetic nonsense is outside their usual field, and so I feel that Roger may be getting a more favourable ear than he deserves.

So, keep up the good work, Pragmatist, Hans et al.

Well, at least we now know that the dysmennorhoea study has not been accepted by a reputable journal, and has in fact probably not been submitted to a reputable journal, if indeed it exists at all.

The Blessed Virgin Mary.
 
"Outright lie".

Outright example of your dodging the issue with pejorative and entirely unsupported value judgements!
 
Great, Hans!

Finally a little science at the end of the gratuitiously offensive language:

"We could make a list.

Lets see:

The mechanism for how electric fields influence the human body.

The rationale for dismissing electromagnetic studies.

The mode of action for the Harmonizer device.

The use of poor statistics in the harmonizer experiment.

The use of poor protocol in the childhood leukemia survey.

.... I think we could go on for quite some length, but perhaps this will suffice for a while.

Hans

OK. Not necessarily in the same order:

1. What was wrong with the childhood leukaemia study; how would you have done it?

2. Poor stats in Harmoniser studies: The data you saw were two replications both with the same result. As well as other evidence from different sources.

3. Mechanisms: Electric fields create a force which affects ion behaviour. Plenty of variants on that theme, e.g altering the local ionisation density by varying ionisation electron tracks; or e.g. Altering the degeneracy of ions involved in in a bond breaking event, thereby affecting the recombination probability. Alteration of spin state preventing recombination and therefore increasing the probability of an external reaction.

4. I don't dismiss electromagnetic studies, only say that magnetic epi studies do not reveal the bio-active parameter.

5. I have no need to demonstrate any mechanism regarding the Harmoniser, only its efficacy. If we knew the mechanism of everything we would have no need for experimental investigation.
 

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