Bioelectromagnetics
- Thread starter Beleth
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- bioelectromagnetics
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
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Since others have already dissected this in a technical way, I will evaluate it in relation to Roger's scientific merits
It ain't pretty!
Hans
cogreslab said:Prag:
Consistently using a nickname for another poster
You asked six questions:
1. Which journal is the dysmenorrhea study going to be published in?
2. Please explain how a mains transformer works if electric and magnetic fields are "totally unrelated" at ELF frequencies?
3. How does an external ELF electric field penetrate the body to any significant extent?
4. Do you have any comments regarding (Don's) interpretation of the fact that the rise in incidence of leukemia is due to greater survival rates rather than greater numbers of children are catching it?
5. Please explain how one "polarizes" a pure magnetic field?
6. How does the state of polarization (of anything) affect current density and "implicate the electric field"?
1. I've already said that I have no idea when this study will be published:
That was not the question asked. A scientist must be supposed to be able to read a simple question, so answering another must be deliberate evasion.
it is not within my gift, nor am I the first author, and nor have I myself submitted it. I am certainly not at liberty to disclose the journal for which it is intended.
This may be so, but then a scientist will not refer to it in a discussion.
2. You very well know that a transformer has a primary and a secondary winding , and current passing down the primary induces a current in the secondary.
Primary school level understanding of transformers. Roger knows he is not talking to a primary school pupil, so it must reflect his own level of knowledge.
That does not mean there is any relationship between the components of an electromagnetic wave at power frequencies. You know that too.
Totally irrelevant, and dead wrong. Electromagnetic wave functions are totally irrelevant to transformers, to our ELF discussion here, and anyway the statement is wrong; in an EM wave there is a totally fixed relationship between the components. Another proof of Roger's deplorable lack of understanding of the field he calims to be researching.
3. You keep regarding the human body as being entirely insulated in the same way as a closed (metallic) sphere. That is not the case: there are many pores and other orifices (not to mention the lungs) whereby electrons (which are mutually repulsive) may easily enter, especially if the skin is wet.
We really need the laughing dog here.
"Electrons enter through pores and orifices"
This would be hilariously ridiculous, if only it was not a statement from a person who claims to be an authority on a branch of eletromagnetics.
4. I do not think the Don's interpretation is correct, since incidence is a measure of the numbers of people with the disorder of interest per unit population (usually per 100,000). It is this annual figure which is rising by a few percent each year. I think the Don is referring to prevalence, not incidence. Compare the figures for breast cancer which showed a decline in incidence after the introduction of screening for elder women.
Whether or not this is right, we see here a self-proclaimed scientist who is not sure how to interpret crucial stastistics in his field.
5. Who said the field was pure? Rotating magnetic fields induce a higher current density than linear fields according to Kato, whose paper explains it very well, hence my argument that this also means higher associated electric fields in the body.
I omit the dog for space considerations, and because I dont want this to look like a cartoon. Nevertheless, Roger Coghill is becoming increasingly cartoon-like. First a nonsensical generalization about magnetic fields, then a totally self-contradictory inference to the electrical fields that Roger elsewhere insists are totally independent of the magnetic fields.
We see in this small paragraph, lack of understanding, lack of logic, and use of ad-hoc reasoning.
6. The answer is embodied in 5 above. *snip* I have argued from this that if the induced current density is the active parameter mediating melatonin synthesis, then the electric field is implicated. Remember that the earliest reports of EMF effects on melatonin used electric fields.
Basically reiterating on the misinterpretations, self-contradictions, and ad-hoc reasoning from #5. Roger apparantly beleives that if yourepeat nonsense often enough in sufficiently convoluted ways, it will be accepted as science. With the general public, he is unfortunately partly right.
I would like to deal with some other posts tonight but I have little time left before I go to Washing5ton for the annual BEMS meeting.
Can't blame him. It must be much more fun to travel to conferences and play the scientist than having your arguments thrown to the dogs here.
In my view btw the continuous use of a cellphone for 20 minutes is excessive. About 95 percent or more of calls are less than 5 minutes I believe.
Uhh, would this belief be based on any kind of data? And how is the duration of the individual calls relevant? And even if it is, some 5% is quite a lot in health terms.
It ain't pretty!
Hans
As a means of summarising the argument todate as it is emerging on this thread i have copied the letter I just wrote to Leeka Kheifets at WHO below:
Dear Leeka,
ELF Electric fields and childhood cancer epidemiology
As promised I am writing a few words regarding ELF electric fields and the importance I believe should be attached to making these a priority for epidemiological research in WHO’s EMF project.
The basic situation in bioelectromagnetics research today as I see it is that we have found a persistent association between ELF magnetic fields and childhood cancer, as well as some evidence of association with other cancers and with non-cancer disorders, but no accepted mechanism of interaction between the ELF magnetic component and .organisms. By converse contrast, the electric component offers a goodly number of plausible biological mechanisms (depolarisation of the inner mitochondrial membrane thereby inhibiting ATP synthesis, inhibition of melatonin synthesis, effects on lymphocyte competence, effects on enzyme activity, etc.) but little epidemiology has ever been done regarding residential electric field exposure.
When one examines more closely why this gap should be, (given there is no relation at ELF frequencies between the magnetic and the electric component, so no magnetic field study can say anything about electric field associations) the excuses one finds are not very convincing.
I won’t go back as far as the Wertheimer study, except to say that she made a fundamental mistake in assigning blame on the magnetic component when the overriding effect near downward transformers is the creation of large electric fields.. This would be a plausible explanation of the sometime-called wire code paradox. When David Savitz and Howard Wachtel came to try measuring electric fields they had to give up through an inability to collect good data, but even so there is an extrapolative hint in what they did publish that in full power conditions an elevation of around 1.7 times was discernable..
Stephanie London and her colleagues at South California only reported spot measurements, which are of course of little representative value (see a typical 24 hours chart of electric field strength enclosed and how it varies over the course of a day).
Electric fields near appliances mean that locally the E-field can vary considerably in any room. Most studies take spot measurements at room centre, where the wiring is likely to be minimal, as is the presence of appliances, moreover. Martha Linet‘s study for NCI offered an over-brief argument that the evidence for an electric field measurement was too weak to apply NCI funds in its collection during that study, but she really misrepresented the albeit scanty evidence erroneously in my view ( as well as mis-referencing our own study).
McBride and Gallagher could not properly capture electric field data with the portable instruments their subjects were wearing, and in any case the bedplace measurements were thereby diluted. So that only leaves the UKCCCR results, and our 1996 study, which found a five-fold elevation using an ELF electric field cut-off point at 20 V/m (not anything like as rarely found in homes as the 0.4 uT used for the magnetic field cut off point in other studies).
The UKCCCR electric field data were also not representative of bedplace exposure (arguably the site where children are most chronically exposed for long periods each night), because the UKCCCR statistician used spot electric field measurements during the day and 48 hours mean electric field levels for periodic analysis. This latter meant that there was a dilution to one third of the nocturnal exposure, so that too was unrepresentative, and unsurprisingly the UKCCCR study therefore found no elevation of incidence. It would be interesting to see the results of re-analysing their data to reflect only 12 hours of nocturnal exposure, say between 2000 hrs and 0800hrs the next day, as we did in our investigation.
The only other epidemiological study reflecting any kind of electric field metric was the large tri-utility occupational one from McGill which reported a high incidence when electric fields were incorporated into the argument.
Laboratory studies on melatonin also show the impact of electric fields. Kato has pointed out that circularly polarised fields have 40 percent higher induced current densities than linear fields, thereby also implicating the higher electric fields which arise from such current densities. In general moreover, though there may be a net zero voltage electric fields are present in home wiring all the time, whereas magnetic fields are only present when the appliances etc are actually in use, which means more chronic exposure by far from electric than from magnetic fields.
I do not wish to prolong this argument indefinitely, though there is much more evidence from cellular and live animal studies to support the idea of an electric field metric as a bioactive parameter in childhood cancers, such as Morris, Kendall et al’s 1989 statistical analysis of 40 experiments from 6 labs, where they found significant effects on lymphocytes exposed to ELF electric fields. And one should not forget Bob Liburdy’s exonerated 1992 FASEB study reporting the importance of an electric field metric, or Martin Blank’s work on electric field effects on HSP70 at Columbia.
In the 1980s I carried out a large study of infant death in central London in relation to proximity to sources of EMF, and found a statistically significant relationship. Subsequent measurements in locations where these hapless infants had died confirmed the finding, but I have never published these, hoping one day for a larger study. I was disappointed that Maria Feycvhting omitted this endpoint from her review of non cancer effects.
The purpose of setting this down is to suggest to WHO, who have not updated their review of electric fields for some 17 years, that such a review is now very overdue, and that moreover an epidemiological study concentrating on ELF electric field measurement in the bedlplaces of children (or adults for that matter) with cancer or related disorders might prove to provide a new and important insight into the issue of weak electromagnetic field effects. That EMDEX instruments do not normally include electric field probes (I wonder why!) should not prevent such a study form being carried out.
After all, as Shandala pointed out in his 1988 review of the Russian literature in Andy Marino’s Modern Electricity, human beings live and have evolved in a large geomagnetic field, so if anything has changed with the advent of electricity it is the electric and not the magnetic component.
With kind regards,
Roger Coghill
PS: I have not included the references mentioned in my letter because I feel sure you are already familiar with all of them!.
Dear Leeka,
ELF Electric fields and childhood cancer epidemiology
As promised I am writing a few words regarding ELF electric fields and the importance I believe should be attached to making these a priority for epidemiological research in WHO’s EMF project.
The basic situation in bioelectromagnetics research today as I see it is that we have found a persistent association between ELF magnetic fields and childhood cancer, as well as some evidence of association with other cancers and with non-cancer disorders, but no accepted mechanism of interaction between the ELF magnetic component and .organisms. By converse contrast, the electric component offers a goodly number of plausible biological mechanisms (depolarisation of the inner mitochondrial membrane thereby inhibiting ATP synthesis, inhibition of melatonin synthesis, effects on lymphocyte competence, effects on enzyme activity, etc.) but little epidemiology has ever been done regarding residential electric field exposure.
When one examines more closely why this gap should be, (given there is no relation at ELF frequencies between the magnetic and the electric component, so no magnetic field study can say anything about electric field associations) the excuses one finds are not very convincing.
I won’t go back as far as the Wertheimer study, except to say that she made a fundamental mistake in assigning blame on the magnetic component when the overriding effect near downward transformers is the creation of large electric fields.. This would be a plausible explanation of the sometime-called wire code paradox. When David Savitz and Howard Wachtel came to try measuring electric fields they had to give up through an inability to collect good data, but even so there is an extrapolative hint in what they did publish that in full power conditions an elevation of around 1.7 times was discernable..
Stephanie London and her colleagues at South California only reported spot measurements, which are of course of little representative value (see a typical 24 hours chart of electric field strength enclosed and how it varies over the course of a day).
Electric fields near appliances mean that locally the E-field can vary considerably in any room. Most studies take spot measurements at room centre, where the wiring is likely to be minimal, as is the presence of appliances, moreover. Martha Linet‘s study for NCI offered an over-brief argument that the evidence for an electric field measurement was too weak to apply NCI funds in its collection during that study, but she really misrepresented the albeit scanty evidence erroneously in my view ( as well as mis-referencing our own study).
McBride and Gallagher could not properly capture electric field data with the portable instruments their subjects were wearing, and in any case the bedplace measurements were thereby diluted. So that only leaves the UKCCCR results, and our 1996 study, which found a five-fold elevation using an ELF electric field cut-off point at 20 V/m (not anything like as rarely found in homes as the 0.4 uT used for the magnetic field cut off point in other studies).
The UKCCCR electric field data were also not representative of bedplace exposure (arguably the site where children are most chronically exposed for long periods each night), because the UKCCCR statistician used spot electric field measurements during the day and 48 hours mean electric field levels for periodic analysis. This latter meant that there was a dilution to one third of the nocturnal exposure, so that too was unrepresentative, and unsurprisingly the UKCCCR study therefore found no elevation of incidence. It would be interesting to see the results of re-analysing their data to reflect only 12 hours of nocturnal exposure, say between 2000 hrs and 0800hrs the next day, as we did in our investigation.
The only other epidemiological study reflecting any kind of electric field metric was the large tri-utility occupational one from McGill which reported a high incidence when electric fields were incorporated into the argument.
Laboratory studies on melatonin also show the impact of electric fields. Kato has pointed out that circularly polarised fields have 40 percent higher induced current densities than linear fields, thereby also implicating the higher electric fields which arise from such current densities. In general moreover, though there may be a net zero voltage electric fields are present in home wiring all the time, whereas magnetic fields are only present when the appliances etc are actually in use, which means more chronic exposure by far from electric than from magnetic fields.
I do not wish to prolong this argument indefinitely, though there is much more evidence from cellular and live animal studies to support the idea of an electric field metric as a bioactive parameter in childhood cancers, such as Morris, Kendall et al’s 1989 statistical analysis of 40 experiments from 6 labs, where they found significant effects on lymphocytes exposed to ELF electric fields. And one should not forget Bob Liburdy’s exonerated 1992 FASEB study reporting the importance of an electric field metric, or Martin Blank’s work on electric field effects on HSP70 at Columbia.
In the 1980s I carried out a large study of infant death in central London in relation to proximity to sources of EMF, and found a statistically significant relationship. Subsequent measurements in locations where these hapless infants had died confirmed the finding, but I have never published these, hoping one day for a larger study. I was disappointed that Maria Feycvhting omitted this endpoint from her review of non cancer effects.
The purpose of setting this down is to suggest to WHO, who have not updated their review of electric fields for some 17 years, that such a review is now very overdue, and that moreover an epidemiological study concentrating on ELF electric field measurement in the bedlplaces of children (or adults for that matter) with cancer or related disorders might prove to provide a new and important insight into the issue of weak electromagnetic field effects. That EMDEX instruments do not normally include electric field probes (I wonder why!) should not prevent such a study form being carried out.
After all, as Shandala pointed out in his 1988 review of the Russian literature in Andy Marino’s Modern Electricity, human beings live and have evolved in a large geomagnetic field, so if anything has changed with the advent of electricity it is the electric and not the magnetic component.
With kind regards,
Roger Coghill
PS: I have not included the references mentioned in my letter because I feel sure you are already familiar with all of them!.
I would dearly also like to respond in depth to the comments made by Hans and Prag etc in their last couple of posts, but will have to leave that to my return from the BEMS annual meeting in Washington.
I have been wondering how I might set out for Prag the formulae given by Kato. Is there any way one can incorporate say jpegs or tables into these threads?
I have been wondering how I might set out for Prag the formulae given by Kato. Is there any way one can incorporate say jpegs or tables into these threads?
CogresLab,
If your primary concern is for the welfare of "those poor hapless children" and you genuinely believe that nocturnal exposure to EMF was the cause of their ailments. Why did you not instruct the parents to construct a Faraday cage inside which the childen could sleep safely ?
You do realise that Dr Henshaw's theory means that only proximity to high tension power lines will result in an increased incidence of illness ?
Please explain once again how the "devices" you investigate and market will prevent children becoming ill through exposure to low frequency EMF.
If your primary concern is for the welfare of "those poor hapless children" and you genuinely believe that nocturnal exposure to EMF was the cause of their ailments. Why did you not instruct the parents to construct a Faraday cage inside which the childen could sleep safely ?
You do realise that Dr Henshaw's theory means that only proximity to high tension power lines will result in an increased incidence of illness ?
Please explain once again how the "devices" you investigate and market will prevent children becoming ill through exposure to low frequency EMF.
I thought I would give you this adveertsiement (I think it is an ad and not an article) to mull over while I am away:
168 MILLION WORKING DAYS LOST EVERY YEAR
There are approximately 7 million working women suffering from period pain in the UK who take up to 2 days a month off work. Over one year, according to LadyCare, a natural period pain remedy, this amounts to 168 million working days lost a year due to period pain, or the total population of Russia being sick for a day.
Estimate spend on period pain relief in a lifetime (apply to LadyCare for details of research):
LadyCare (natural period pain remedy) £29
Over the counter pain killers £650
Herbal period pain tablets £750
Prescribed drugs £1,000
Period pain heat pads £1,745
LadyCare is a discreet device (registered Class 1 medical), which attaches simply but firmly to the underwear near the abdomen, and works effectively to reduce period pain. LadyCare has unique magnetic properties, and one device will last a lifetime. A recent customer survey reported a 90% satisfaction rate for period pain relief using LadyCare, and unlike painkillers, provides continual 24-hour pain relief throughout the period.
Period pain is caused by cramps in the uterine muscle during the menstrual cycle condition medically known as dysmenorrhoea. LadyCare is believed to increase circulation to the pelvic area naturally improving muscle efficacy and reducing the pain. With regular use there is often a reduction in mood swings (PMT) usually caused by hormone imbalance. LadyCare also reduces the tenderness of the breast immediately prior to menstruation.
The success of its trials has been far greater than anticipated. Women and teenage girls involved in the studies and trials were very positive. LadyCare alleviated their long-term
menstrual problems, which meant no more time off work or absence from school due to unbearable pain every month and a great reduction of painkilling medication.
Says Alice Vickers, a LadyCare convert, "I started using LadyCare as I could no longer take painkillers because of a stomach ulcer problem but didn't want to take time off work because of period pain. The first month I used LadyCare combined with paracetamol but now I don't need to take anything else to stop the pain or cramping, and I'm not kept awake at night. It's good to have continual natural pain relief with LadyCare throughout my period.
BAWP [British Association of Women Police] members took part in a separate trial of LadyCare, to examine what the effects might be on female police officers and support staff. Since Nottingham Professional Development Day, 39 BAWP members have replied with positive results - 93% of returned questionnaires reported that LadyCare relieved the usual period pain.
Questions Answers - YES / No / N/A
1. Usually suffer 2 Days+ of monthly pain?
Y 93% / N 7%
2. Usually use painkillers?
Y 93% / N 7%
3. Able to reduce painkillers with LadyCare use?
Y 86% / N 14%
4. LadyCare reduced the normal pain?
Y 93% / N 7%
5. Benefit felt within an hour?
Y 93% / N 7%
6. More energy during use?
Y 43% / N 57%
7. Improved concentration during use?
Y 71% / N 29%
8. Able to resume activities previously restricted during period?
Y 57% / N 43%
9. LadyCare was comfortable to wear?
Y 86% / N 14%
10. Reduced mood swings?
Y 57% / N 29% / N/A 14%
Typical Comments from Trialists
"Fantastic product, excellent results"
"I wouldn't like to be without it"
"It's a necessity not a luxury"
"Excellent, after years of suffering"
"Total pain relief within 20 minutes"
"Totally banished any bloating"
"Very impressed - no water retention"
"Most effective when used in advance"
One of those taking part in the trial was Mandy Chapman, currently a dog handler in MPS and you may have seen the article about her in Woman, 15 May, 2002 under Alternative Health. She started out as a sceptic, but is now convinced that it can really work. Even such a small trial sample as ours, seems to have endorsed the efficacy of this approach to something most of us thought we just had to live with.
(This is not the trial I was involved in btw)
My comment: From the figures presented it is easy to see why those aligned to the pharmaceutical industry might be worried by this new competition for their expensive and largely unproven products.
168 MILLION WORKING DAYS LOST EVERY YEAR
There are approximately 7 million working women suffering from period pain in the UK who take up to 2 days a month off work. Over one year, according to LadyCare, a natural period pain remedy, this amounts to 168 million working days lost a year due to period pain, or the total population of Russia being sick for a day.
Estimate spend on period pain relief in a lifetime (apply to LadyCare for details of research):
LadyCare (natural period pain remedy) £29
Over the counter pain killers £650
Herbal period pain tablets £750
Prescribed drugs £1,000
Period pain heat pads £1,745
LadyCare is a discreet device (registered Class 1 medical), which attaches simply but firmly to the underwear near the abdomen, and works effectively to reduce period pain. LadyCare has unique magnetic properties, and one device will last a lifetime. A recent customer survey reported a 90% satisfaction rate for period pain relief using LadyCare, and unlike painkillers, provides continual 24-hour pain relief throughout the period.
Period pain is caused by cramps in the uterine muscle during the menstrual cycle condition medically known as dysmenorrhoea. LadyCare is believed to increase circulation to the pelvic area naturally improving muscle efficacy and reducing the pain. With regular use there is often a reduction in mood swings (PMT) usually caused by hormone imbalance. LadyCare also reduces the tenderness of the breast immediately prior to menstruation.
The success of its trials has been far greater than anticipated. Women and teenage girls involved in the studies and trials were very positive. LadyCare alleviated their long-term
menstrual problems, which meant no more time off work or absence from school due to unbearable pain every month and a great reduction of painkilling medication.
Says Alice Vickers, a LadyCare convert, "I started using LadyCare as I could no longer take painkillers because of a stomach ulcer problem but didn't want to take time off work because of period pain. The first month I used LadyCare combined with paracetamol but now I don't need to take anything else to stop the pain or cramping, and I'm not kept awake at night. It's good to have continual natural pain relief with LadyCare throughout my period.
BAWP [British Association of Women Police] members took part in a separate trial of LadyCare, to examine what the effects might be on female police officers and support staff. Since Nottingham Professional Development Day, 39 BAWP members have replied with positive results - 93% of returned questionnaires reported that LadyCare relieved the usual period pain.
Questions Answers - YES / No / N/A
1. Usually suffer 2 Days+ of monthly pain?
Y 93% / N 7%
2. Usually use painkillers?
Y 93% / N 7%
3. Able to reduce painkillers with LadyCare use?
Y 86% / N 14%
4. LadyCare reduced the normal pain?
Y 93% / N 7%
5. Benefit felt within an hour?
Y 93% / N 7%
6. More energy during use?
Y 43% / N 57%
7. Improved concentration during use?
Y 71% / N 29%
8. Able to resume activities previously restricted during period?
Y 57% / N 43%
9. LadyCare was comfortable to wear?
Y 86% / N 14%
10. Reduced mood swings?
Y 57% / N 29% / N/A 14%
Typical Comments from Trialists
"Fantastic product, excellent results"
"I wouldn't like to be without it"
"It's a necessity not a luxury"
"Excellent, after years of suffering"
"Total pain relief within 20 minutes"
"Totally banished any bloating"
"Very impressed - no water retention"
"Most effective when used in advance"
One of those taking part in the trial was Mandy Chapman, currently a dog handler in MPS and you may have seen the article about her in Woman, 15 May, 2002 under Alternative Health. She started out as a sceptic, but is now convinced that it can really work. Even such a small trial sample as ours, seems to have endorsed the efficacy of this approach to something most of us thought we just had to live with.
(This is not the trial I was involved in btw)
My comment: From the figures presented it is easy to see why those aligned to the pharmaceutical industry might be worried by this new competition for their expensive and largely unproven products.
Prester John
Anti-homeopathy Illuminati member
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2003
- Messages
- 1,185
9 out of 10 owners think their cat prefers it.
Perhaps i can interest you in some cream that reduces the need to shave and a skin care product which contains a substance with a scientific sounding name ending in ome or ase.
Meanwhile i look in the back of womans weekly and see a slew of adverts promising to be able to predict my future, increase my income to extraordinary levels and find the dream lady of my life.
I then exit advertisers world and enter the real world.
Perhaps i can interest you in some cream that reduces the need to shave and a skin care product which contains a substance with a scientific sounding name ending in ome or ase.
Meanwhile i look in the back of womans weekly and see a slew of adverts promising to be able to predict my future, increase my income to extraordinary levels and find the dream lady of my life.
I then exit advertisers world and enter the real world.
I also, before I finally have to leave, I noticed this link reporting a trial of a magnetic treatment for dysmennorhea at the following link
http://www.magnopulse.com/ladycare/LadyCare_extract.htm#SUMMARY & CONCLUSIONS
so maybe you laughing hyenas might care to apply your skeptical evaluation to that study. Again it is not the trial I was involved in btw.
PS: I would rather tackle the exposure problem of children by downregulating the guidelines than forcing parents into the construction of elaborate protective cages.
http://www.magnopulse.com/ladycare/LadyCare_extract.htm#SUMMARY & CONCLUSIONS
so maybe you laughing hyenas might care to apply your skeptical evaluation to that study. Again it is not the trial I was involved in btw.
PS: I would rather tackle the exposure problem of children by downregulating the guidelines than forcing parents into the construction of elaborate protective cages.
Prester John
Anti-homeopathy Illuminati member
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2003
- Messages
- 1,185
Search pubmed
dysmennorhea magnet
dysmennorhea magnets
dysmennorhea magnetic
No results for any of them
pain relief magnets produced
Kanhohak Tamgu. 1994;3(1):148-73; discussion 174-9.
The effect of magnetic application for primary dysmenorrhea
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7953879
and thats it for magnetic pain relief folks........
Now Mr Coghill, you don't believe the power utilities reasearch on EMF fields because they have a vested interest, yet you believe the reseach published by Ladycare, and they don't have a vested interested in trying to flog magnets ? Consistency pulease.
dysmennorhea magnet
dysmennorhea magnets
dysmennorhea magnetic
No results for any of them
pain relief magnets produced
Kanhohak Tamgu. 1994;3(1):148-73; discussion 174-9.
The effect of magnetic application for primary dysmenorrhea
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7953879
and thats it for magnetic pain relief folks........
Now Mr Coghill, you don't believe the power utilities reasearch on EMF fields because they have a vested interest, yet you believe the reseach published by Ladycare, and they don't have a vested interested in trying to flog magnets ? Consistency pulease.
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2002
- Messages
- 24,961
Roger, this is a quite serious question:
Are you insane or are you a masochist? Obviously, you are an intelligent and structured person. Why do you do this to yourself? I know we are not as friendly as one might wish, but you could take this debate in a positive way; we are actually pointing out the weakensses in your case.
Instead you persist in making a fool of yourself. Now this:
Does your comment mean that you feel this ad gives ANY credit to the product? Surely you are joking?? First of all, this could be totally fictional, but even if we take it all by face value all this "study" really says is:
"We asked some ladies to test this product and some of them liked it."
I would try to estimate your scientific credibility by now, Roger, but some people over at the new skeptical board have convinced my that there exists no such thing as an infinitely small number.
Hans
Are you insane or are you a masochist? Obviously, you are an intelligent and structured person. Why do you do this to yourself? I know we are not as friendly as one might wish, but you could take this debate in a positive way; we are actually pointing out the weakensses in your case.
Instead you persist in making a fool of yourself. Now this:
cogreslab said:I thought I would give you this adveertsiement (I think it is an ad and not an article) to mull over while I am away:
You THINK it is an ad???? It has "swindle device advertisment" written in bold letters all over it.
168 MILLION WORKING DAYS LOST EVERY YEAR
(yada, yada, yada, long ranting with unsubstantiated stastistics and wild claims snipped)
The success of its trials has been far greater than anticipated. Women and teenage girls involved in the studies and trials were very positive. LadyCare alleviated their long-term menstrual problems, which meant no more time off work or absence from school due to unbearable pain every month and a great reduction of painkilling medication.
Claim stated, now for the evidence:
Says Alice Vickers, a LadyCare convert, "I started using LadyCare as I could no longer take painkillers because of a stomach ulcer problem but didn't want to take time off work because of period pain. The first month I used LadyCare combined with paracetamol but now I don't need to take anything else to stop the pain or cramping, and I'm not kept awake at night. It's good to have continual natural pain relief with LadyCare throughout my period.
Exhibit A: A one-person testimony
BAWP [British Association of Women Police] members took part in a separate trial of LadyCare, to examine what the effects might be on female police officers and support staff. Since Nottingham Professional Development Day, 39 BAWP members have replied with positive results - 93% of returned questionnaires reported that LadyCare relieved the usual period pain.
Exhibit B: A trial. A non-blinded, no controls, voluntary reply questionnaire trial
Questions Answers - YES / No / N/A
1. Usually suffer 2 Days+ of monthly pain?
Y 93% / N 7%
2. Usually use painkillers?
Y 93% / N 7%
3. Able to reduce painkillers with LadyCare use?
Y 86% / N 14%
4. LadyCare reduced the normal pain?
Y 93% / N 7%
5. Benefit felt within an hour?
Y 93% / N 7%
6. More energy during use?
Y 43% / N 57%
7. Improved concentration during use?
Y 71% / N 29%
8. Able to resume activities previously restricted during period?
Y 57% / N 43%
9. LadyCare was comfortable to wear?
Y 86% / N 14%
10. Reduced mood swings?
Y 57% / N 29% / N/A 14%
Exhibit C: Fuzzy, subjective questions, with fuzzy subjactive answers.
Typical Comments from Trialists
"Fantastic product, excellent results"
"I wouldn't like to be without it"
"It's a necessity not a luxury"
"Excellent, after years of suffering"
"Total pain relief within 20 minutes"
"Totally banished any bloating"
"Very impressed - no water retention"
"Most effective when used in advance"
Exhibit D: Selected, anonymous testimonies.
One of those taking part in the trial was Mandy Chapman, currently a dog handler in MPS and you may have seen the article about her in Woman, 15 May, 2002 under Alternative Health. She started out as a sceptic, but is now convinced that it can really work. Even such a small trial sample as ours, seems to have endorsed the efficacy of this approach to something most of us thought we just had to live with.
Exhibit E: Another one-person testimony.
(This is not the trial I was involved in btw)
No? I sure is your style, however.
My comment: From the figures presented it is easy to see why those aligned to the pharmaceutical industry might be worried by this new competition for their expensive and largely unproven products.
Does your comment mean that you feel this ad gives ANY credit to the product? Surely you are joking?? First of all, this could be totally fictional, but even if we take it all by face value all this "study" really says is:
"We asked some ladies to test this product and some of them liked it."
I would try to estimate your scientific credibility by now, Roger, but some people over at the new skeptical board have convinced my that there exists no such thing as an infinitely small number.
Hans
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
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I am not going to spend a lot of my time going over that trial in detail, so just a few points:cogreslab said:
The introduction talks about a double blind placebo controlled (DBPC) study, but that is NOT THIS study! It is an unreferenced claim that there exists such a study. Obviously a rather disinginous study since it apparantly only ran for a month (for a study of menstrual pain
).This is obviously meant to make the unwary reader thing that the described study is DBPC, but it is not. It is a questionnaire study on people who have bought the product and used it for some time. There is no control group, it is a pure before and after study.
The study uses mainly subjective parameters as perception of pain, and pretends to make useful stastistics of users reports of perceived pain on a ten-step scale.
Main criticism:
1) No controls.
2) Biased group (obviously people who have kept using the device feel that it works, otherwise why should they continue to use it?).
3) Useless stastistics. It is very dubious to ask people to scale pain in such a fine scale, and to pretend that the reportings can be pooled is ridiculous. Pain perception is highly subjective, very individual, and to top it, logarithmic in character.
Conclusion: This is product advertisment poorly disguised as science
.Hans
cogreslab said:
When will you stop with these evasions, dodger? They've gone beyond transparent, sir, and are now beaming high-wattage search lights right at you to highlight your every twist and turn.
You know full well we are speaking here of scientific evidence and scientific burden of proof. I spoke directly to the issue, and you went to your local fishmonger to get more red herring. How many yachts does that fishmonger have now from your purchases?
Address the points I made, sir, and stop deflecting.
Pragmatist
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A quick check on Dr Nyjon Eccles the main author of the Ladycare "trial" reveals some interesting stuff:
From: http://www.ladycarehealth.com/daily_mail.html
However, nobody is quite sure how magnets work in relieving pain. Dr Nyjon Eccles, a private medical doctor who has a Harley Street pain relief clinic, says that electrical energy is discharged from magnets.
'What we think happens is that energy from the magnet penetrates the skin and dissolves the lactic acid that builds up during a period,' he says. It is well known that lactic acid causes cramps in the limbs of sportsmen. And in period pain there is a similar effect.
'When the positive electrical ions from the magnet come into contact with the uterus they help dissolve the lactic acid which raises the oxygen level of the blood and improves its flow.
'This results in the pain becoming less severe or clearing completely.' Magnets are being increasingly used in other areas of medicine, too.
Complete pseudoscientific nonsense as usual!
"Electrical energy discharged from magnets" Comment: so do these magnets run down? Do they need recharging? Because if they are "discharging energy", that energy has to come from somewhere doesn't it? Unless of course they contain infinite energy to start with - oh goody! Energy crisis solved!
"Energy from magnet dissolves lactic acid". Comment: Wow! So energy is a liquid is it? And where does it go once it has dissolved all this lactic acid? Maybe it causes the body to fill up with highly concentrated "energy solutions" of lactic acid? Hmmm....
"Positive electrical ions from the magnet" Comment: Now I'm confused. So this magnet isn't a magnet but it's an ionizer? Where do these ions come from? Are they created from thin air? And does the magnet get smaller as it leaks all these "positive ions"? And positive ions of WHAT? Maybe they are positrons, so it's an anti-matter device. Sounds dangerous to me!
Total quackery! The fact that Roger tries to associate himself with this kind of crap tells us everything we need to know just in itself.
Another thing. I notice in that Ladycare trial, which is supposed to be controlled, that the subjects were using OTHER things at the same time. Like painkillers. I also notice one section where it says that 29.4% of them experienced pain relief from the magnet (allegedly) but that 29.4% experienced pain relief from painkillers. Those two figures are suspiciously similar. Let's compare them, 29.4% = 29.4% ! Wow! What an amazing coincidence. Of course they come to the ONLY possible conclusion - that Ladycare is equally effective as painkillers! Of course how could anyone conclude otherwise? It would only be some nasty debunking evil skeptic who would dare to suggest that this is SAME 29.4%. And of course even if it IS the same, we must all know that if a person is taking a painkiller while using a magnet that any pain relief MUST be due entirely to the magnet.....
Oh please! {/INSULT INTELLIGENCE}
From: http://www.ladycarehealth.com/daily_mail.html
However, nobody is quite sure how magnets work in relieving pain. Dr Nyjon Eccles, a private medical doctor who has a Harley Street pain relief clinic, says that electrical energy is discharged from magnets.
'What we think happens is that energy from the magnet penetrates the skin and dissolves the lactic acid that builds up during a period,' he says. It is well known that lactic acid causes cramps in the limbs of sportsmen. And in period pain there is a similar effect.
'When the positive electrical ions from the magnet come into contact with the uterus they help dissolve the lactic acid which raises the oxygen level of the blood and improves its flow.
'This results in the pain becoming less severe or clearing completely.' Magnets are being increasingly used in other areas of medicine, too.
Complete pseudoscientific nonsense as usual!
"Electrical energy discharged from magnets" Comment: so do these magnets run down? Do they need recharging? Because if they are "discharging energy", that energy has to come from somewhere doesn't it? Unless of course they contain infinite energy to start with - oh goody! Energy crisis solved!
"Energy from magnet dissolves lactic acid". Comment: Wow! So energy is a liquid is it? And where does it go once it has dissolved all this lactic acid? Maybe it causes the body to fill up with highly concentrated "energy solutions" of lactic acid? Hmmm....
"Positive electrical ions from the magnet" Comment: Now I'm confused. So this magnet isn't a magnet but it's an ionizer? Where do these ions come from? Are they created from thin air? And does the magnet get smaller as it leaks all these "positive ions"? And positive ions of WHAT? Maybe they are positrons, so it's an anti-matter device. Sounds dangerous to me!
Total quackery! The fact that Roger tries to associate himself with this kind of crap tells us everything we need to know just in itself.
Another thing. I notice in that Ladycare trial, which is supposed to be controlled, that the subjects were using OTHER things at the same time. Like painkillers. I also notice one section where it says that 29.4% of them experienced pain relief from the magnet (allegedly) but that 29.4% experienced pain relief from painkillers. Those two figures are suspiciously similar. Let's compare them, 29.4% = 29.4% ! Wow! What an amazing coincidence. Of course they come to the ONLY possible conclusion - that Ladycare is equally effective as painkillers! Of course how could anyone conclude otherwise? It would only be some nasty debunking evil skeptic who would dare to suggest that this is SAME 29.4%. And of course even if it IS the same, we must all know that if a person is taking a painkiller while using a magnet that any pain relief MUST be due entirely to the magnet.....
Oh please! {/INSULT INTELLIGENCE}
Pragmatist
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It appears that Dr Nyjon Eccles also supports the "Teslar Watch". Here is how it works:
From: http://www.toolsforwellness.com/teslar.html
HOW THE TECHNOLOGY WORKS
The ingenuity of the TESLAR watch lies in its specially designed TESLAR chip. This innovative, state-of-the-art scalar module works with the watch's standard components:
1) The watch battery, which creates an electric field 2) The quartz-crystal timing coil, which creates a magnetic field
Working with the electric field generated by the battery and the magnetic field created by the oscillating timing coil, the TESLAR chip collapses these two fields to create a 'zero-point' longitudinal wave, also known as a Tesla Free-Standing Wave ... a scalar wave.
This zero-point scalar waveform is not simply a flat, lifeless waveform of cancelled energies; it is alive with checked and balanced energies. Modulated on this longitudinal waveform, the TESLAR chip sends a 7 to 9 hertz frequency into and around the body via the left arm's triple warmer meridian (energy conduit).
The triple warmer meridian, which travels through the left wrist and ultimately interconnects with the body's other energy meridians, enables the TESLAR technology's signal to be carried throughout the body. This process simply bolsters the body's naturally occurring electromagnetic field, thus working like a protective shield impervious to the harmful static caused by surrounding electromagnetic fields. Its field effect is comparable to being in a quiet, calm cocoon, relatively free from the turbulence of the electromagnetic storm raging through our environment.
The TESLAR watch is an active device, oscillating between 7 to 9 hertz - right around the earth's natural 7.83 hertz frequency (as measured by scientists at UC-Berkeley's Seismology Laboratory), the frequency of relaxation and calm inspiration to which the human body was accustomed before mankind began harnessing electricity. Frequent oscillation allows the signal to stay biologically interactive, which is important because some systems in the body will acclimate to stimuli that stay constant for any given period of time.
Oh dear! Shades of Cyril Smith all over again! "zero point energy", "scalar waves", "acupuncture meridians", "endogenous fields"
More crap!
Quacks of a feather, flock together it seems!
From: http://www.toolsforwellness.com/teslar.html
HOW THE TECHNOLOGY WORKS
The ingenuity of the TESLAR watch lies in its specially designed TESLAR chip. This innovative, state-of-the-art scalar module works with the watch's standard components:
1) The watch battery, which creates an electric field 2) The quartz-crystal timing coil, which creates a magnetic field
Working with the electric field generated by the battery and the magnetic field created by the oscillating timing coil, the TESLAR chip collapses these two fields to create a 'zero-point' longitudinal wave, also known as a Tesla Free-Standing Wave ... a scalar wave.
This zero-point scalar waveform is not simply a flat, lifeless waveform of cancelled energies; it is alive with checked and balanced energies. Modulated on this longitudinal waveform, the TESLAR chip sends a 7 to 9 hertz frequency into and around the body via the left arm's triple warmer meridian (energy conduit).
The triple warmer meridian, which travels through the left wrist and ultimately interconnects with the body's other energy meridians, enables the TESLAR technology's signal to be carried throughout the body. This process simply bolsters the body's naturally occurring electromagnetic field, thus working like a protective shield impervious to the harmful static caused by surrounding electromagnetic fields. Its field effect is comparable to being in a quiet, calm cocoon, relatively free from the turbulence of the electromagnetic storm raging through our environment.
The TESLAR watch is an active device, oscillating between 7 to 9 hertz - right around the earth's natural 7.83 hertz frequency (as measured by scientists at UC-Berkeley's Seismology Laboratory), the frequency of relaxation and calm inspiration to which the human body was accustomed before mankind began harnessing electricity. Frequent oscillation allows the signal to stay biologically interactive, which is important because some systems in the body will acclimate to stimuli that stay constant for any given period of time.
Oh dear! Shades of Cyril Smith all over again! "zero point energy", "scalar waves", "acupuncture meridians", "endogenous fields"
More crap!
Quacks of a feather, flock together it seems!
Pragmatist
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cogreslab said:
Elaborate? Why elaborate? Simply line the room with aluminium foil! Or surround the bed with a simple cage of chicken wire.
Or...sell them some useless crap pendant and pray that placebo effect will save them.
Careful Rog, your ethics (or lack thereof) are showing!
Pragmatist
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cogreslab said:
Roger, just when I think you couldn't possibly make any more of an idiot of yourself than you already have, you go and do it.
You are a complete and total moron. That's not ad-hom, it's a fact. No, I'm not referring to the ridiculous lies and technobabble in the content of the "letter" for a change. This time I'm referring to the fact that Leeka Kheifets LEFT the WHO a YEAR ago!
Pragmatist
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cogreslab said:
Doh..! I have been wondering how it is possible that you have been spouting the same technocrap for years about electromagnetics. I found it hard to believe that anyone could go on with the same delusions without possibly learning ANYTHING along the way. Now I know. You are incapable of learning. And here is the proof.
*I* told you precisely how to insert images into posts in this very thread. I also told you how to insert tables, and someone else DID it to give you a practical example. But I can see that is a problem for someone who is incapable of absorbing new information. I guess the fact that you still don't know how to click on the "quote" button tells us everything we need to know in itself!
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
Therein lies Mr.Coghill's cunning.Pragmatist said:
Roger, just when I think you couldn't possibly make any more of an idiot of yourself than you already have, you go and do it.
You are a complete and total moron. That's not ad-hom, it's a fact. No, I'm not referring to the ridiculous lies and technobabble in the content of the "letter" for a change. This time I'm referring to the fact that Leeka Kheifets LEFT the WHO a YEAR ago!
Upon NOT receiving a response from WHO he can then rant and rave about his concerns being ignored and consiracy theories.
(edited to make coherent - haven't even been drinking)