May I submit the not quite definitive list of "Rog-Dodge Bullsh*t Bites"!
All culled from direct quotations by the man himself across this entire thread in chronological order. Maybe this will help with the list.
your body's natural electric fields protect you against disease by improving the viability of your white blood cells! Look after your aura!
The worms were monitored all the time, all were healthy and all were returned to the garden after the experiment with static magnets
BTW we don't do animal experiments in my laboratory
you cannot argue that what may happen with a mammal when exposed will also happen with a human being.
Yes I concede that worms are animals really, and so are bacteria with which we also experiment.
I apologise for the misleading statement, What I was trying to say was that we do not do experiments with anything alive that can look at you.
I concede there are a lot of people out there who have no real scientific understanding of homeopathy
Animal experiments. "Things that look at you" was a quote from one of the Beatles, describing his refusal to eat such things. I agree the true definition of an animal is anything that breathes.
Fact: there is no relation between the electric and the magnetic component at ELF frequencies, so no magnetic field study can say anything about the electric component.
To answer your question directly, yes I believe that external electric fields can superpose on internal endogenous fields to the extent of disruption, based largely on the knowledge that the conductivity of physiological saline is almost lossless inside the body.
This capacitance can stay around inside the body for some time
To MRC Hans: there is inevitably a relationship between the volume of the dielectric between the two plates in your solid capacitor and its capacitance, if you think about it: the more volume of whatever material lies between your two plates, the greater the capacity of that passive component to resist a passage of current. Capacitors store current in the sense that they resist passage until a certain level is reached.
Regarding your point about charge, such charges are electrostatic when we are discussing alternating currents. I can see a case for saying that highly charged biota are not affected while they are acting as capacitors (like birds on a powerline): the effects only cause damage when there is an actual flow of current, say to earth, or a field external to the material.
To example this for lay readers, if your electric kettle is connected to the mains, there will be no ELF magnetic field unless you switch on the kettle.
I don’t think Moulder really means to say that a radio signal continues to exist after the power is collapsed, otherwise your radio programme would also continue after the transmitter stopped transmissions.
To achieve radiation the electromagnetic energy energy must form closed loops of flux which propagate away from the emitter at near light speeds (light is also electromagnetic energy). This is not likely at the extremely low frequencies, only at radio frequencies
He does however make the important concession that the electric and magnetic components are unrelated
And for my benefit and education please explain why and how Morse signals at visible light frequencies do not collapse immediately when the source is interrrupted?
Since Garbage Man has questioned the possibility that 60Hz line sources might radiate and thereby put vicinals (oops sorry, nearby people) into the far field of its emissions
Garbage Man, to help me prepare my case, where have you ever found this powerline the length of the US-Canadian border?
On the second, I say again that there is no magnetic field in the kettle cable unless the kettle is drawing current from the mains to which it is attached, whereas the electric field is there whether the kettle is switched on or not. Do you dispute this?
On the third, I say again that the electromagnetic energy leaves the radio antenna having formed a closed loop of flux, the character of these successive closed loops form the signal that is received by the receiving antenna. Do you dispute this?
When no current flows in a wire connected to the mains there is a net zero voltage, but the electric field is still present, since the electrons are moving back and forth to the same position, but since there is no net movement in any direction there is no magnetic field.
A finite time is required for a magnetic field and its associated electric field to collapse, however, and at frequencies above about 15kHz not all the energy contained in the field has returned to the conductor before the current has started to increase in the opposite direction and created new electric and magnetic fields.
This is the correct view, and does not as it happens conflict with James Clerk Maxwell's fourth equation (Curl E = - dB/dt) since it is the curl which makes the equation balance not the simple E field.
I have no quarrel with the idea that a changing electric field induces a magnetic field, and vice versa, but this is not incompatible with the kettle lead situation, because the ELF electric field strength is dependent on the mains voltage and so the electric field around the plugged in lead is steady, and unless the voltage changes the electric field strength is not likely to change either. Only if the electric field changes would one see a transient magnetic field and then only until the new electric field strength (as a result of some different voltage) establishes itself. That is why I and the World Health Organisatioin (inter alia) are right on this matter, and you are wrong.
Also what do you think of the Aharanov-Bohm paper? I ask this because the corpus callosal fibres' layout in the brain would be a good representation of the experimental set up required to produce this effect, and I always have respect for Nature's intelligence.
Both your points (magnetised fluids; the AB expt.) are well taken , and I would have made them myself.
Because at ELF frequencies there is no relationship between these two components all the magnetic field studies can say nothing about the impact of the electric field.
Pragmatist challenged the views of the WHO saying they were not experts in physics, and now you appear to be saying that the methodology of the Head of Cancer stats for Wales is wrong. What's with you guys? Do you have some agenda here?
This is how I see it: there are a number of different life processes dependant on the use of electrons in some way or other, including electric fields. For example, the brain and the heart both use relatively weak electric fields to convey instructions to the body's cells
I do not say I have all the answers Soapy:
I probably know more about anticancer treatments than you have had hot dinners, sonny boy.
And what about phase balance? (Another mystery to me). Do not these imbalances give rise to fields? Then there is the issue of unbalanced ground return currents too.
To Hans: Maybe you should take in a little basic biology too, Hans. The difference between us is that I have physicists and others whom I pay to advise me, (but I have not bothered them to get involved in this thread). May I point out that physicists also argue amongst themselves over their science (see how Pragmatist has scoffed at other physicists' views -eg WHO- ) so who am I to say which is correct?
I see examples of phase imbalance and ground return currents delivering high ELF magnetic fields via my instruments, and though it would be interesting to know exactly how these arise, I doubt whether any physicist could compute the answer exactly, and it is not essential, unless I am an NGT employee tasked to reduce these to the minimum.
And do not nearby magnetic fields bend light?
but I am not sure about light always travelling in straight lines! Might it not travel in helical "lines" in a single direction? If so the right diameter helix could pass around a small enough object.
Moulder appears to be saying here that ELF power lines do not radiate, and though there has been some dispute about this I am inclined to agree with him. This is not to say that their effects cannot have action at a distance, however.
To EHocking: Are you mad? Measuring the level of water left in each bowl is a useful surrogate for standing there all day to count the visits by the animal. I would hate to have you design a scientific protocol! Unless of course you fancy spending the time seeing how many times dogs drink from bowls: on the other hand maybe you have nothing better to do.
I answer that by pointing out that during most of our evolutionary experience we have never had exposure to relatively long wave alternating electric fields of any chronicity.
So the heart’s beat rate is controlled by electric fields emanating from the sino-atrial node; the brain uses electric fields created from currents flowing between the great pyramidal cells on either side of the cerebral hemispheral cortex ("Betz cells") via the corpus callosal nervous transmissions into the third and lateral ventricles;
Now, how in Hell does the electric field get into the body? We have a most efficient barrier to intrusion in the form of the dermis and epidermis, specifically evolved to deflect and keep out radiation e.g. from the sun; and we have associated melanin dependent protections. The skin like hair is dead. We defend our living selves with the dead bodies of our own cells, and "fill the wall up with our English dead", to quote Shakespeare. These thicknesses have been honed by the shortness of the waves incoming such as solar UV which may be too short to penetrate past the wall of dead. But RF waves are longer and can get past this evolutionary derived barrier, and so can the even longer non-ionising fields and radiation. We need to be thicker skinned these days, (especially if joining this forum with new ideas).
Yes, good point. I forgot to deal with the issue of the Schumann resonances, discovered byn O. Schumann in 1954. These are an important zeitgeber for many seasonal effects, but we are accustomed to them by evolution also, to the extent that astronauts are provided I believe with artificial versions when in space. They are totally unlike the ELF electric fields of modern technology.
Thanks EHocking, btw, for elevating my wealth for me by hundreds of thousands of dollars at a stroke. Sadly for me, a million dollars is not the same however as a million pounds: is this the kind of accuracy you would bring to your experimental protocols?
We do not sell medicines without a licence.
Your value judgment is laughable. First there is no medical research involved, secondly I am forcing no one to do anything. And thirdly if you regard putting a child into an ELF field recommended as perfectly safe by the regulatory authorities, then clearly there is no abuse.
It saddens me Prag, that as my scientific responses to your questions get stronger and better supported by the independent peer reviewed evidence you demand, you resort more and more to denigration as a means of response.
Apart from a trivial argument over the timing of when an RF signal collapses (which was a diversionary pedantism) my electromagnetics is OK, and you have not been able to challenge any of the facts: the main point in these is that the ELF electric component differs from the magnetic in terms of people's exposure to EMF, that being in the near field it has no relation to the magnetic component, The electric field is there all the time the circuit is live, whereas the magnetic is only there when the circuit is under load.
I also showed that ELF fields can penetrate the body, and had you wished to debate that would have brought in Gandhi's and other work for you to look at.
