Bioelectromagnetics

Pragmatist said:


Hans, Roger: At the following link: http://people.howstuffworks.com/blackout.htm

is the following:

"At a high level, the power grid is a very simple thing. It consists of a set of large power plants (hydropower plants, nuclear power plants, etc.) all connected together by wires. One grid can be as big as half of the United States. "
Yes, but even if some grids have lengths that compare to the wavelenght, they are not build as areals, quite the contrary, they are built like transmission lines. No doubt, however, somewhere down the decimals, you will find a wave radiation, but, again, I am not looking for decimals.

Hans
 
To Marian: Sorry, but your nitpicking arguments about humans. mammals. worms and such like, not to mention the even more stupid allegations that my qualifications are false, or that the antenna's signals do not stop when it is switched off are beneath critical scientific attention, and serve nothing more than to try to hijack the thread. I will remove the word "always" and substitute the words "almost always" on our website page relevant to the pet magnet to avoid others making such stupid criticisms in future.
 
cogreslab said:
I was asked for my own protocol, I thought, and I made it clear that my anecdotal evidence was not being regarded by me as a publishable experiment. Suddenly my entire academic capacity is being challenged for telling you my anecdote with my own pet, including the genuineness of my academic degrees! Some of you guys build castles in the air then attempt to live in them.

Nevertheless, video cameras (and the need to sit and watch them for hours to chronicle the results) and the other paraphernalia you mention were not appropriate for my simple test on one subject. We have not done any peer reviewable work ourselves on this issue, but I will get on to the manufacturers about this to see what they say (apart from branding you as overly skeptical of course).

It makes me wonder what you ask when you buy a loaf of bread: do you demand proof that the flour was white?
Actually, I think directly observing the dog would be a bad idea. Dogs are extremely apt at taking cues from humans, so this might confound the experiment. I would certainly level serious criticism of the experiment if the dog was observed directly, without the observer being blinded to which bowl held the magnets.

But all this is moot. What counts, Roger, is that you have acknowledged that your advertizing "pets will always choose the magnetized water, they know the difference" is based on no evidence but an amateurish experiment with your own dog. Your scientific credibility has gone down a few more notches.

Hans
 
cogreslab said:
To Cleopatra: do I take that as an acceptance? Shall I get Miss Moneypenny to arrange your registration at the Conference?

PS Bring your thermal socks and a swim suit.
Thank you Mr. Coghill but even if I wanted to chase bad guys on your side I wouldn't be able to do that in Instabul.

Unlike many other Green and Eurocommunist colleagues I --a conservative-- am a persona non grata for the turkish state because of my involvement with Amnesty International. re: the issue of the tortures in turkish prisons.

The screams of the tortured prisoners would spoil the fun and we wouldn't be able to enjoy our magnetized wine while chasing the Establishment.

One other thing. Bill Hoyt's questions are legitimate and very simple. Why don't you answer to them?
 
To PJ: I am making the assumption that cell mutation is not, in your schema, possible unless there is a carcinogen present. Is that correct? In other words that without a carcinogen no cancer is possible? (I include radiation in the list of carcinogens).

No, that is not so.

Also I do not see how the multistage explanation of carcinogenesis can account for spontaneous remission or metastasis. Could you throw light on these difficulties for me?

Metastasis hmm, well lets see, you would appear to agree that the multistep process can account for development from a normal cell to a cancerous cell. This has been well documented for example with colon cancer:

Normal epithelium - mutation at 5q leading to loss of APC gene - Hyperproliferative epithelium - Early adenoma - - DNA hypomethylation - mutation at 12p leading to activation of K-ras - Intermediate adenoma - mutation at 18q leading to loss of DCC - late adenoma - mutation at 17p leading to loss of p53 - Carcinoma - other alterations - Metastasis.

ooh other alterations, perhaps the sticking point no ?

well check this out:

http://ajp.amjpathol.org/cgi/content/full/158/2/735


this site gives a good overview:

http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/neo-2-3.htm


Now how about an answer to my question please.....
 
MRC_Hans said:
Actually, I think directly observing the dog would be a bad idea. Dogs are extremely apt at taking cues from humans, so this might confound the experiment. I would certainly level serious criticism of the experiment if the dog was observed directly, without the observer being blinded to which bowl held the magnets.

But all this is moot. What counts, Roger, is that you have acknowledged that your advertizing "pets will always choose the magnetized water, they know the difference" is based on no evidence but an amateurish experiment with your own dog. Your scientific credibility has gone down a few more notches.

Hans

Agreed. If this was to be even halfway objective I think you'd have to arrange that the experimenter was blinded, that the experimenter was NOT a person familiar to the dog and that the experimenter was well out of sight during the experiment.

In addition, I think the water would have to be "pre-charged" and the magnet removed during the test, because the dog might be more interested in the magnet (if he can see it on/in/under the water bowl). The dog may also be attracted by the magnet (no, I don't believe in magnetized dogs!) :) but what I mean is that maybe the dog can sense the magnet. Or even more pertinent, if the magnet has been handled a lot by the owner, maybe the dog can smell the owner's scent on the magnet. Even a different smell may attract more interest, such as from a new person who handled the bowl. And if the magnetized water was put in the dog's usual bowl and the fresh water in a new one, the dog may like his old bowl more - and so on....

There are dozens of minor factors one would have to take into account before it could even be remotely objective or valid. What Roger did is not really an experiment by any reasonable definition.

Since Roger likes Feynman so much (so do I, incidentally) I thought it would be appropriate to quote one of Dick Feynman's most famous sayings, from "Cargo Cult Science", which is very appropriate here:

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that.

I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you're maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen."
 
Hans: The conclusion you have jumped to is that I based my claims for this pet coaster solely on my own anecdotal experience. How many times do I have to repeat that I do not regard my anecdote as the required level of proof? As Prag has said, and I agree with him, this was no where near becoming a scientific experiment. Don't let Bouncer BIll detract you both from the issue I am trying to raise here, which is beginning to stand a chance of serious and useful dialogue, i.e. the way in which ELF electric fields can adversely affect health. how carcinogenesis really derives, and how the establishment is covering up the truth knowlingly, to the detriment of public interest.
 
To Prag:

Can I direct to you this quote from the first site you pointed me to:

Most of these correlative studies, however, have reached the inevitable conclusion that the expression of a given gene is necessary but insufficient to account for the multistep process of metastasis.23

The point I would make here is that the gene expression is associated with but not causally so, since the timing is the wrong way round.

Must go for now: IoB committee meeting in Cardiff tonight.
 
cogreslab said:
Hans: The conclusion you have jumped to is that I based my claims for this pet coaster solely on my own anecdotal experience. How many times do I have to repeat that I do not regard my anecdote as the required level of proof? As Prag has said, and I agree with him, this was no where near becoming a scientific experiment. Don't let Bouncer BIll detract you both from the issue I am trying to raise here, which is beginning to stand a chance of serious and useful dialogue, i.e. the way in which ELF electric fields can adversely affect health. how carcinogenesis really derives, and how the establishment is covering up the truth knowlingly, to the detriment of public interest.

The word is "distract," sir.

So you make the claim in order to make the sale. So you freely admit you have no scientific basis for the claim other than your anecdotal evidence. And so you now try to deflect from this by switching the argument to what constitutes the required level of proof. The immediate concern, sir, is that you sell the product by making unsubstantiated claims.
 
cogreslab said:
To Marian: Sorry, but your nitpicking arguments about humans. mammals. worms and such like, not to mention the even more stupid allegations that my qualifications are false, or that the antenna's signals do not stop when it is switched off are beneath critical scientific attention, and serve nothing more than to try to hijack the thread. I will remove the word "always" and substitute the words "almost always" on our website page relevant to the pet magnet to avoid others making such stupid criticisms in future.

You are giving me credit I do not deserve, I suggest you look more closely at who authored which posts.
 
cogreslab said:
[ Don't let Bouncer BIll detract you both from the issue I am trying to raise here, which is beginning to stand a chance of serious and useful dialogue, i.e. the way in which ELF electric fields can adversely affect health. how carcinogenesis really derives, and how the establishment is covering up the truth knowlingly, to the detriment of public interest.

Do you know something about Bill Hoyt that we don't Mr. Coghill?
 
cogreslab said:
Don't let Bouncer BIll detract you both from the issue I am trying to raise here, which is beginning to stand a chance of serious and useful dialogue, i.e. the way in which ELF electric fields can adversely affect health. how carcinogenesis really derives, and how the establishment is covering up the truth knowlingly, to the detriment of public interest.

O.K. Roger, let assume for one moment that you are right. Let's assume these evil power companies are involved in some terrible conspiracy to kill all of us with their terrible EM emissions. The question I would ask is this: why? What do they gain from the coverup?
 
A pity you didn't have to address the questions i put forward, especially re scientific evidence for your alternative theory of cancer induction.

An obvious reason why your theory is not true is that Cancerous cells produce cancerous cells. With a finite amount of carcinogen available, if cancer was caused by chemical interaction, then your carcinogen would run out and hey presto no more cancerous cells. This would be easily provable in-vitro. (Forget trying to suggest this as a mechanism for spontaneous remission, get it in a test tube first). Additionally you have no mechanism for increased proliferation and loss of controls associated with such.
 
"So you freely admit you have no scientific basis for the claim other than your anecdotal evidence".

No. Where did I do that, Detractor ( and de-railer) Bill?
 
Another possible objection to your theory of cancer induction is that if as you suggest they cells are so short of fuel that they consume parts of their own structure, surely then they wouldn't proliferate, apart from anything else the starving cells would lack the energy for the process.

If the malfunction spread to adjoining cells, increasing their demand for glucose, surely this would make deprive the cells at the centre of the growing lesion even more glucose deficient?

Wouldn't you the end up with spreading area of dying cells, rather than proliferation?

BTW, isn't the part of the proposed mechanism for the action of the benzoquinones that they induce apoptosis, promoting the death of the cancer cells rather than restoring ox-phos pathways?

At:
http://virology.med.uoc.gr/IJO/2003/volume22/number1/107.pdf

(in the conclusion bottom left penultimate page)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12663042&dopt=Abstract

http://virology.med.uoc.gr/IJO/2002/volume20/number3/563-570.pdf

The last one is possibly by some of the same people who did the BJC clinical study - which I agree looks promising.
 
Prester John said:
[BAn obvious reason why your theory is not true is that Cancerous cells produce cancerous cells. With a finite amount of carcinogen available, if cancer was caused by chemical interaction, then your carcinogen would run out and hey presto no more cancerous cells. [/B]
Let us pause here to consider the monumental stupidity of this statement. Chromosomes, when coupled to the cell's machinery, are an excellent and faithful reproductive system. They make copies of themselves with extraordinarily high fidelity. How high? The error rates are of the order 10<sup>-4<sup> to 10<sup>-6<sup>, typically. What happens with a carcinogen is the carcinogen manages to force a significant alteration of the blueprint code. Once such a genetic copy error has been made, and in the absence of more carcinogen, the error is reproduced with high fidelity. The error rates, again, are of the order 10<sup>-4</sup> to 10<sup>-6</sup>. (Anybody needing to look this up is encouraged to google on "forward mutation rate" and "backward mutation rate." The broader categories include molecular genetics and theoretical population genetics.)

Once the mutation has occurred, there is no need for more carcinogen. The cellular machinery simply copies the error, over and over and over again.

Rogbot, you have now clearly revealed yourself to me as an absolute poseur. There is NO way any person got through any biology curriculum without understanding this fundamental fact.
 
To PJ:

Your central question was ( I think) "Show me evidence that carcinogens block the oxidative phosphorylation pathway". I had confined my comment to one of the cytochrome complexes, but there are probably other vulnerable sites as well in this pathway, actually.

The discovery began in 1912 when Prof William Koch discovered that completely parathyroidectomised dogs produced guanidine and methyl guanidine in the tissues increasingly until the levels became fatally in excess. At the same time he noticed excess lactic acid, calcium and phosphate was eliminated from the animals. From this he deduced the chemistry of guanidine was to activate its amine group by its conjugation with an imide group; - but also there was a tendency to deactivate this amine group by such substitutions as acetic acid as in creatine, and amino-valeric acid in arginine. Guanidine and methyl guanidine are highly toxic carcinogens while creatine and arginine are not.

The large elimination of lactic acid (even though the lungs were well ventilated) gave him the insight that metabolism was being blocked somewhere, so that only glycolysis was occurring in the metabolism, hence the excess lactate. He then pinpointed this to the carbonyls which, being good dehydrogenators, provide the first step in oxidation (carbonyl groups are of course present in ubiquinone or any quinone for that matter). I don’t think at that time ubiquinone had been discovered so the insight was a very good one.

The idea that carcinogens caused faulty metabolism was later taken up by Otto Warburg, and after that by Szent Gyorgii, who proposed in the early 1960s that the only way to deal with the cancer problem was to restore metabolism and that this could be achieved using quinones. The Hungarian group who produce Avemar are following up the ideas of Szent Gyorgii with spectacular success. We are developing Koch’s ideas and testing various quinones in vitro, some way behind them, but with a broader approach.

A modern example of the attack on the mitochondrial metabolism is the carcinogen vinyl fluoride.

VF alkylates the prosthetic heme group of cytochrome P-450, and the alkylate has been identified as N-(2-oxoethyl)protoporphyrin IX. This observation suggests a reaction of heme with fluoroacetaldehyde (Ortiz de Montellano et al. 1982, cited in Cantoreggi and Keller 1997).

It also is likely that incorporation of fluoroacetate into the citric acid cycle disrupts energy metabolism and leads to increased production of mitochondrial acetylcoenzyme A and hence excretion of ketone bodies and free fluoride. Administration of VF has been shown to increase acetone exhalation by rats (Filser et al. 1982).

The Filser reference is below:

Filser, J.G., P. Jung, and H.M. Bolt. (1982). Increased acetone exhalation induced by metabolites of halogenated C1 and C2 compounds. Arch Toxicol 49:107-116.

This is only one illustration of a carcinogenic attack on the metabolic pathway in the mitochondria, but as I said, if you give me your address I will send you the complete biochemistry as worked out by Koch and Szent Gyorgii, and developed further by our lab, since it is time consuming to set this out in any real detail via a post.

I see that while preparing this post several other useful and constructive critical comments have appeared, and I will try to answer these over this week end since I am invited to Cambridge for a college dinner tomorrow night, and will be out all day.

Briefly, on your other point, if the electric power utilities had to acknowledge their product was hazardous to health they would face huge lawsuits from victims and owners of property near lines, (because it can be shown they were aware of this hazard and deliberately covered it up, so they cannot plead a "state of the art" defence, Cleopatra) and enormous costs of resiting lines or buying wayleaves. I thought that was obvious: they have the example of the tobacco companies staring them in the face.
 
This article from the Hungarian groups suggests that the mechanism is restoration of apotopic pathways, not restoration of normal metabolism (i.e. it induces them to sell destruct)....

At:
http://virology.med.uoc.gr/IJO/2002/volume20/number3/563-570.pdf

Abstract. The fermented wheat germ extract (code name: MSC, trade name: Avemar), with standardized benzoquinone content has been shown to inhibit tumor propagation and metastases formation in vivo. The aim of this study was to understand the molecular and cellular mechanisms of the anti-tumor effect of MSC…[snip]

…………As a result of the MSC treatment, the amount of the cell surface MHC class I proteins was downregulated by 70-85% compared to the non-stimulated control. MSC did not induce a similar degree of apoptosis in healthy peripheral blood mononuclear cells. Inhibition of the cellular tyrosine phosphatase activity or Ca 2+ influx resulted in the opposite effect increasing or diminishing the Avemar induced apoptosis as well as the MHC class I downregulation, respectively. A benzoquinone component (2,6-dimethoxi-p-benzoquinone) in MSC induced similar apoptosis anddownregulation of the MHC class I molecules in the tumor T and B cell lines to that of MSC. These results suggest that MSC acts on lymphoid tumor cells by reducing MHC class I expression and selectively promoting apoptosis of tumor cells on a tyrosine phosphorylation and Ca 2+ influx dependent way. One of the components in MSC, 2,6-dimethoxi-p-benzoquinone was shown to be an important factor in MSC mediated cell response.
 
"So you freely admit you have no scientific basis for the claim other than your anecdotal evidence".

No. Where did I do that, Detractor ( and de-railer) Bill?
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OK, I'll bite. On what then do you base your conclusions (which I have not read) about pets preferring "magnetized" water?-A detailed, peer reviewed, 10 year study involving several hundred pets (newts, tarantulas, crocodiles), carried out under double blind conditions in a purpose built research station? ;)

Out with it, or Bill will badger you endlessly and I'm more interested in the debate with Pragmatist and Prester John at the minute.
 
To PJ: Yes we are aware of the Hungarian group's construction of events. I am hoping to revisit Budapest and discuss this with them, since we know differently, and in the public interest we will propose to share our own additional knowledge with these people. They were privately financed by the way not by the State (verbum sapientibus satis: Cancer Research UK is also privately funded, if you count all those little old ladies nobly selling donated products in the charity shops).

In Hungary this reagent Avemar has acheived the status of a food supplement with special significance for cancer patients, Here we only have permission from HMRA to present it to the public as a food supplement. (Quite rightly.)

Note that unlike commercial firms I am discussing all these issues openly, because frankly I am not interested in amassing wealth, as some here suggest, but in solving a problem for future generations (even Bouncer BIll's kids) in a technological era.
 

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