Bioelectromagnetics
- Thread starter Beleth
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cogreslab said:
I'm a bouncer at a local strip club.
And my profession doesn't alter the fact that Morse code works, does it?
Whether you are 10 feet from the lamp or 10 miles from the lamp. To claim the signal ceases to exist when the lamp is off is to claim the person at 10 miles misses the message. Alternatively it is to claim the speed of light is infinite.
The signal, sir, continues to propagate. It is electromagnetic radiation, which is self-propagating. Now would you like to correct your statements on this, or would you like to provide your evidence for your (now repeated) claim?
To Soapy Sam: Actually you are correct. But I don't live on alpha centauri, and to be honest I don't think that people reading Moulder's text would have taken that possibility into account either, being relatively down to earth (small joke attempted here). I see that I shall have to move with the speed of light to avoid pedantry of that sort.
Please stop with the deflection techniques. I'd like to see a correction from you that clearly indicates to the readers here that you understand that there was nothing wrong with Moulder's statement. The signal continues to exist, and continues to propagate after the power is collapsed. It is not pedantic; it is a fact of all electromagnetic radiation. Is this or is this not so?
CRL- I was being ironic myself. Re the balance sheet, I take your point that the research budget is a small percentage of the company assets.
I think however you may not have taken my point, which is that in a debate, if you get the simple details wrong, people may assume you are wrong about the stuff they don't know about.
In this particular case you equated cash reserve and cash flow, which, as a businessman you must know is disingenuous in debate and fraudulent in an audit.
I'm simply making a point about debate / argument, applicable in any case and worth remembering. You are trying to convince people here who basically think you are wrong. You must be precise in your argument.
I think however you may not have taken my point, which is that in a debate, if you get the simple details wrong, people may assume you are wrong about the stuff they don't know about.
In this particular case you equated cash reserve and cash flow, which, as a businessman you must know is disingenuous in debate and fraudulent in an audit.
I'm simply making a point about debate / argument, applicable in any case and worth remembering. You are trying to convince people here who basically think you are wrong. You must be precise in your argument.
Before retiring to bed I nearly forgot to reply to Thomas's very good question about possible confounders in the EMF epi studies (i.e maybe traffic fumes, lower socioeconomic status, food/chemicals etc or some other factors were more to blame for childhood leukaemia than EMF).
Most studies I have read did control for these confounders very well, and probably the best controlled were the Karolinska studies. Howard Wachtel proposed the possible confounder as traffic fumes, and Maria Feychting controlled for most of the others. However carefully one does these controls the EMF effect persistently remains in nearly all the residential studies.
Persistence was one of the famous Bradford Hill criteria for establishing a causal relationship from epidemiology
Most studies I have read did control for these confounders very well, and probably the best controlled were the Karolinska studies. Howard Wachtel proposed the possible confounder as traffic fumes, and Maria Feychting controlled for most of the others. However carefully one does these controls the EMF effect persistently remains in nearly all the residential studies.
Persistence was one of the famous Bradford Hill criteria for establishing a causal relationship from epidemiology
Pragmatist
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This is my first post on this site, and I never expected it to start on a negative tone, but someone has to say it.......
The words "arrogant SOB" spring to mind...
As a humble garbage collector and therefore much less worthy than a strip club bouncer, perhaps you would care to educate me:
"Electromagnetic energy must form closed loops of flux"? Flux of what? Energy???? And how can it be a closed loop in a propagating wave?
And without trying to be pedantic, I was under the impression that light was an electromagnetic WAVE (that will of course CARRY energy)....
EM radiation not likely at 60Hz? We are talking power lines, no? Granted that lines are rarely 5000 Km in length, they can still be many hundreds of Km in length, and taking into account circuits and loops maybe we're not so far off the possibility of a 1250 Km quarter wave loop? A radiator significantly smaller than 1/4 wave will still radiate significantly, and one of 1/4 wave will actually be quite efficient. And that is ignoring the probability of ground mirroring......
If such a loop were located along the US/Canadian border for example, then by the time one gets to Mexico we'd be looking at a real far field exposure wouldn't we?
I guess us garbage collectors are so used to seeing the brown sticky stuff, that sometimes we might see it where it doesn't really exist. But then again sometimes we need some convincing that our noses haven't failed us.
And just in parting, wouldn't a strip club bouncer automatically qualify as an expert in the dynamics of action and reaction?
cogreslab said:
The words "arrogant SOB" spring to mind...
cogreslab said:
As a humble garbage collector and therefore much less worthy than a strip club bouncer, perhaps you would care to educate me:
"Electromagnetic energy must form closed loops of flux"? Flux of what? Energy???? And how can it be a closed loop in a propagating wave?
And without trying to be pedantic, I was under the impression that light was an electromagnetic WAVE (that will of course CARRY energy)....
EM radiation not likely at 60Hz? We are talking power lines, no? Granted that lines are rarely 5000 Km in length, they can still be many hundreds of Km in length, and taking into account circuits and loops maybe we're not so far off the possibility of a 1250 Km quarter wave loop? A radiator significantly smaller than 1/4 wave will still radiate significantly, and one of 1/4 wave will actually be quite efficient. And that is ignoring the probability of ground mirroring......
If such a loop were located along the US/Canadian border for example, then by the time one gets to Mexico we'd be looking at a real far field exposure wouldn't we?
I guess us garbage collectors are so used to seeing the brown sticky stuff, that sometimes we might see it where it doesn't really exist. But then again sometimes we need some convincing that our noses haven't failed us.
And just in parting, wouldn't a strip club bouncer automatically qualify as an expert in the dynamics of action and reaction?
Welcome to the forum Pragmatist! Mr. Coghill's remark about Bill's profession surprized me because he is supposed to fight against the Establishment and on the side of the poor.
So far Mr. Coghill hasn't replied to the simple questions of a female consumer and a strip club bouncer. Maybe the class of garbage collectors have a better chance with Mr. Coghill.
So far Mr. Coghill hasn't replied to the simple questions of a female consumer and a strip club bouncer. Maybe the class of garbage collectors have a better chance with Mr. Coghill.
To Cleopatra. Sorry I did not before answer your sock question. If these were for the purpose of sailing (as I understand it), then you will know that in salt water should they get wet they will not dry out. You will be left with wet feet for the duration of the voyage. One advantage of plastic insoles is they do dry out quickly.
Whereas the socks will tend to constrict blood flow, if e.g. they have an elasticated top, the insoles improve the blood flow as well as muscle tone. If you take up my offer to try one for free you could report back to this forum on the difference I predict you will find. Good science is predictive, is not it?
Whereas the socks will tend to constrict blood flow, if e.g. they have an elasticated top, the insoles improve the blood flow as well as muscle tone. If you take up my offer to try one for free you could report back to this forum on the difference I predict you will find. Good science is predictive, is not it?
Not being acquainted with many garbage collectors or strip club bouncer s (we live a sheltered life in Pontypool) I perhaps came to the mistaken conclusion that such folk may not understand the niceties of bioelectromagnetics. I did not intend to be haughty about it.
Since Garbage Man has questioned the possibility that 60Hz line sources might radiate and thereby put vicinals (oops sorry, nearby people) into the far field of its emissions, I will come back with a more understandable version later. Meanwhile, it would elevate the quality of this thread if we could stick to science, since I am already fully conversant with the invective abilities of some members, having had many examples during this dialogue.
Since Garbage Man has questioned the possibility that 60Hz line sources might radiate and thereby put vicinals (oops sorry, nearby people) into the far field of its emissions, I will come back with a more understandable version later. Meanwhile, it would elevate the quality of this thread if we could stick to science, since I am already fully conversant with the invective abilities of some members, having had many examples during this dialogue.
To Soapy Sam: yes I very much take your point about the discrediting effects of getting simple details wrong. I must admit I was tired and lazy at the time and my remark about the cash referred to a set of accounts I saw a few years back, not to the present ones. I should first have checked the latest position and then used that example, which still strongly made my point for me.
I hope will now understand that I did not in fact confuse cash reserves with cash flow.
I hope will now understand that I did not in fact confuse cash reserves with cash flow.
Pragmatist
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Cleopatra said:
Thank you Cleopatra, it's a pleasure to be here.
Cleopatra said:So far Mr. Coghill hasn't replied to the simple questions of a female consumer and a strip club bouncer. Maybe the class of garbage collectors have a better chance with Mr. Coghill.
On the evidence thus far, I doubt it...
Instead of engaging in more haughty diatribe here, how about you deal with the question? Instead of engaging in more deflections, how about you address things straight on.cogreslab said:
And, as Cleopatra has aptly pointed out, how dare someone who positions himself as the advocate of the downtrodden against the evil establishment power machine take this effete snob approach to questions from a lovely female consumer, a garbage man and a strip club bouncer? How dare he hide behind white coats and degrees? Especially as a cover for, and deflection from, a challenge to a claim!
You faulted Moulder here:
Here are all my questions for you, enumerated. I am asking you once again to address each point and to reference my original numbers. All in one post, sir. Not dragged out over pages in the vain hope people will lose track of them;
1. Do you understand that your statement confuses the radio "signal" with the radio signal's content?
2. Do you understand that no further program content will be transmitted but the content transmitted until the plug was pulled continues to radiate outward from the source?
3. Do you understand that is because the signal indeed continues to exist after the power is collapsed?
4. Do you understand that radio signals are a form of electromagnetic radiation, and that all electromagnetic radiation is self-propagating?
5. Returning to the Morse code example.. Light is another form of electromagnetic radiation that, of course, self-propagates. Let us say Morse code "dits" are .25 seconds long and "dashes" are .75 seconds long. If the Morse code sender were less than .25 light-seconds (that is, the distance light travels in one-quarter-second) from the receiver, the receiver could decipher the message. Under your claim, however, if we position that receiver more than .25 light-seconds from the sender, the receiver sees only the dahs and not the dits. That is because you claim the signal collapses when the sender turns off power. Therefore, the signal never arrives at the receivers position. Move the receiver back beyond .75 light-second away and he sees nothing under your claim. Therefore, under your claim, even with a laser, we cannot send morse code to the moon. (Mean distance: 238,712 miles; Speed of light: 186,000 miles/sec) Do you understand that my Morse code example highlights the problem with your claim?
Morse code timing
On the one hand you keep asking me to answer your questions (though you rarely if ever acknowledge it when, for nearly all; cases, I have done so), and on the other hand you keep ascribing pejoratives to me, which in all reasonableness you must at least allow me to defend myself against.
Now, as an example, I do not "hide behind white coats and degrees" - the white coats were illustrated by some other post, then embellished by others into a near crime of imposture, and as for degrees, these are simply a reflection of the judgement of Universities and Institutions of repute (and far better value judgements than many I have seen on this thread).
As a further example some of you are now alleging I aim to "defend the poor against the evil Establishment". This is not the case. In fact the average socio-economic status of homes with children leukaemia (the epicentre of this dialoguie) is above average. This is hardly surprising if my claim that childhood leukemia can be caused by chronic exposure to the electric fields from such appliances. There is an evident correlation over many years between rising childhood leukaemia and rising electric appliance ownership (see Milham, 2002), though one should take Thomas's point about confounders on board when reading Milham's paper.
Now, please! Stop indicting me with value judgements of your own manufacture as a tactic to hijack the main issues and let's get on with the science.
Now, as an example, I do not "hide behind white coats and degrees" - the white coats were illustrated by some other post, then embellished by others into a near crime of imposture, and as for degrees, these are simply a reflection of the judgement of Universities and Institutions of repute (and far better value judgements than many I have seen on this thread).
As a further example some of you are now alleging I aim to "defend the poor against the evil Establishment". This is not the case. In fact the average socio-economic status of homes with children leukaemia (the epicentre of this dialoguie) is above average. This is hardly surprising if my claim that childhood leukemia can be caused by chronic exposure to the electric fields from such appliances. There is an evident correlation over many years between rising childhood leukaemia and rising electric appliance ownership (see Milham, 2002), though one should take Thomas's point about confounders on board when reading Milham's paper.
Now, please! Stop indicting me with value judgements of your own manufacture as a tactic to hijack the main issues and let's get on with the science.