Biblical Plagiarism

God damnit why do so many people lie about this stuff arrggggh. Christianity shoots itself enough in the foot already god DAMN why do people need to make up more stuff which will just give Christians something to attack.

Damn-it!! OK. OK.
Not entirely sure why they start it, but these things spread because people want some sort of slam dunk piece of evidence that shows definitively that Christianity is true or false, and when people find something that backs their idea, they tend not to double check it. It's the same reason you see Christians uncritically embrace what guys like Lee Strobel says. The sad fact is that if there was something so obvious like this, then there simply wouldn't be a debate at all. I don't think Christianity is true, but you're not going to find evidence directly against it on the level of Scientology or even Mormonism.

Your Wiki link was good, that serves the same purpose. I think my Gilgamesh similarities are pretty solid too, now I just need one more thing, 3 is a good number. Is there anything, any two passages or whatever, that clearly shows the NT taking off the OT? Just something simple and concise that doesn't require three years of biblical scholarship to understand. Remember, I am presenting this to a person who hasn't even read their own Bible yet.

It might be best to talk with this person about why they think Christianity is true in the first place and dealing with that rather than trying to force this specific plagiarism argument to work.
 
No no you don't understand the context of my argument. The plagiarism is just one small little argument amongst tonnes of others I have, and I am sending it all across as an expose' My hard hitter arguments are ones like evolution, morality, miracles, problem of evil, and Aquinas 5 proofs.


And why do I have to force the plagiarism argument to work? Everyone here is saying the same thing, that religions do plagiarize older religions, just that my sources were wrong. All I need is correct sources, and I can continue onward.
 
No no you don't understand the context of my argument. The plagiarism is just one small little argument amongst tonnes of others I have, and I am sending it all across as an expose' My hard hitter arguments are ones like evolution, morality, miracles, problem of evil, and Aquinas 5 proofs.
Make sure that the person you're writing this to is a young Earth creationist before you bring up evolution. Most Christians actually don't have a problem with evolution. As for morality, I'm not entirely sure what you're going to be arguing, but if you're going to say that God of the Bible is immoral, then they'll probably want you to provide some other basis for a moral system, otherwise they'll say that calling Him evil is arbitrary. A lot of Christians also misread this sort of argument as you saying "God's a big meanie, so I don't want the Bible to be true," so make sure you're careful in how you put it. As for Aquinas' 5 proofs, make sure that the person you're writing to thinks that they're important, otherwise showing that they don't work is really a waste of time.

I have no idea of the details of your argument, if you address what I said in there, or what exactly the person you're talking with believes, but I figured I'd offer that advice just in case.

And why do I have to force the plagiarism argument to work? Everyone here is saying the same thing, that religions do plagiarize older religions, just that my sources were wrong. All I need is correct sources, and I can continue onward.
The problem is that there's no point in even saying that there's a good deal of plagiarism unless you have the evidence. You seem to largely be assuming that you'll find something that Christianity clearly ripped off rather than arriving at that conclusion based on evidence. I do think that many elements of Christianity come from other sources, but it's not like they just took old stories and swapped the names. It's often more that they took old mythological patterns and elements and Old Testament verses and adapted them, sometimes inverting them. These are the sorts of things that will be very hard to convince a Christian of, so you really need a thorough understanding of the source material and a very good argument, not simply a list of similarities or something.
 
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Haha yeah I know that one each gospel says something different. But no that's not my problem this person knows the flood didn't happen, so that can't be used as an excuse.

Just pleaase verify my Gilgamesh and Book of the Dead similarities and provide me with a third one and a source, please!!

As I've already said, flood myths go back earlier than Gilgamesh:

Zuisudra flood hero of Sumerian myth on tablets, ca. 2300 BCE

Atrahasis flood hero of Akkadian myth, 1900 to 1600 BCE

Utnapishtim flood hero of Babylonian myth, final version of epic of Gilgamesh may be as late as 700 BCE. Old Babylonian version of the epic may date to ca. 1500 BCE.

Deucalion flood hero of Greek myth (possibly contemporaneous with Noah story)

The J Document is thought to date from ca. 850 BCE.
 
The problem is that there's no point in even saying that there's a good deal of plagiarism unless you have the evidence. You seem to largely be assuming that you'll find something that Christianity clearly ripped off rather than arriving at that conclusion based on evidence. I do think that many elements of Christianity come from other sources, but it's not like they just took old stories and swapped the names. It's often more that they took old mythological patterns and elements and Old Testament verses and adapted them, sometimes inverting them. These are the sorts of things that will be very hard to convince a Christian of, so you really need a thorough understanding of the source material and a very good argument, not simply a list of similarities or something.


Hear, hear!

Welcome Gao. :)
 
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Good advice Gao. Unfortunately, that is what I was hoping for, something simple I could show that they had clearly ripped off. Damn, even Bronze Age savages still had enough brains to cover their tracks, unlucky me!

@Tim Yeah thanks for that, though the main point is that Gilgamesh is older then Exodus, that's all I really need. Going back further and further may just muddy the waters (from his POV)

@Gao, thanks for the advice, but I got it all covered, I'll explain briefly incase you want your curiosity sated.

He accepts the theory of evolution, but "in the context of an intelligent designer". So I'm attacking things like why the designer would create a parasitoid wasp, why so inefficient, why is a designer even needed, mutation and selection work both fine...

He also is of the very interesting, perhaps completely unique, mold of thinking that the flood actually happened, though admitting that old earth and evolution is true. So I'll also be pointing out the lack of evolutionary evidence of all species on the planet tapering down to seven breeding pairs.

Lastly, evolution and old earth brings even more, perhaps fatal theories for him to deal with. Since Adam and Eve clearly didn't exist, where did original sin come from? I've also used Hitchens argument, here's what you've got to believe - that for 94 000 years heaven sat watching the humans with indifference, etc. etc.


Morality. He isn't as inhumane as that. He has moral beliefs such as equality of women, no slavery, no genocide, etc. I am just pointing out that these things did not come from the Bible, and I quote passages where the Bible actually advocates them, they came from moral philosophy, from human discussion and consensus. So this eliminates the need to look to the Bible to get our morals. Because if we truly did that, we'd still hold slaves, stone apostates, etc.

My opening statement was actually talking about how our emotions should not factor into our decisions when deciding if a claim is true or not. So I think I've got that covered.

Aquinas 5 proofs he has actually quoted them to me, so I have just refuted them.


Thanks for your help!
 
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Good advice Gao. Unfortunately, that is what I was hoping for, something simple I could show that they had clearly ripped off. Damn, even Bronze Age savages still had enough brains to cover their tracks, unlucky me!


Unfortunately, the plagiarism really isn't that simple and obvious. If it were, there might have been fewer Christians, and then who would we get to argue with? :D
 
OhMan,

While the derivation of motifs - I use that term rather than "plagiarism," since I don't think people deliberately intended to deceive - isn't as simple as the "Jesus as Horus" scenario has it, there's still plenty of evidence that, particularly in the case of the New Testament, that the material was borrowed. Also, consider what Justin Martyr, early Christian apologist who lived in the first half of the second century had to say on the subject in his First Apology, addressed to Roman emperos Antoninus Pius:

Justin Martyr First Apology
CHAP. XXI.--ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Aesculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre?

As to the historical veracity of the gospel texts, read and compare the Nativity stories of Matthew and Luke. They disagree in just about every detail. The same is true of the Passion narratives. For example, did both robbers crucified along with Jesus revile him, as Mark and Matthew say, or did one robber revile him and the other repent, as Luke says? Were Jesus' last words on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" as Mark and Matthew say; "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit," as Luke has it; or "It is finished (i.e. acomplished)" as John has it?

The cry of desolation in Mark and Matthew, "My God, my God, why hast thou forseken me?" is a direct quote from Psalms 22:1, which is considered a psalm of David. Thus, in his agony, Jesus, supposedly a direct descendant of David and the rightful Davidic king, uses the words David used to express desolation.

Jesus' statement of resignation in Luke is a slight paraphrase of Ps. 31:5:

Into thy hand I commit my spirit;
thou hast redeemed my O LORD, faithful God

This is also a psalm attributed to David. Only John comes up with an original statement, "It is finished." However, since his gospel is the latest of the four canonical gospels, possibly written as early as CE 90 or as late as 125 (the approximate date of the Rylands fragment), It's more likely he invented the words than that Jesus spoke them.
 
OK, I think I may have found something. Michael Shermer quoted it.

Apollonius of Tyana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

Could this be the basis for Jesus?

It's either one of many people upon whom the Christ myth is based or Apollonius of Tyana was one of many who was, like Jesus, imbued with godlike qulities.

As I also noted, there are aspects of the dying and rising gods, such as Osiris and Dionysus in the Christ myth. Michael Shermer's quote about Apollonius of Tyana was based on material from Gospel Fictions by Randel Helms.

Basically, with respect to the Christ myth, what you are going to find is multiple sources. The imagery of the Madonna and child is based on the imagery of Isis and the infant Horus, though little else in the Christ myth comes from Horus. Turning water into wine was a miracle borrowed from Dionysus. The raising of Lazarus is probably derived from the cult of Osiris. However, most of the miracles Jesus performed are taken right out of the Septuagint, the Jewish scriptures translated into Greek. Helms does an excellent job of pointing this out.

Most importantly, though, is that you don't look for one be all and end all source - either with respect to authors or deities upon which the life of Jesus was based.
 
OK, I think I may have found something. Michael Shermer quoted it.

Apollonius of Tyana

Could this be the basis for Jesus?

Our earliest detailed source on Apollonius of Tyana is a work about him by Philostratus written in the early third century. The Gospels were written at least a century or so before that, so we really can't easily conclude that the Jesus story borrowed from Apollonius rather than the other way around.
 
Basically, with respect to the Christ myth, what you are going to find is multiple sources. The imagery of the Madonna and child is based on the imagery of Isis and the infant Horus, though little else in the Christ myth comes from Horus. Turning water into wine was a miracle borrowed from Dionysus. The raising of Lazarus is probably derived from the cult of Osiris. However, most of the miracles Jesus performed are taken right out of the Septuagint, the Jewish scriptures translated into Greek. Helms does an excellent job of pointing this out.

THANK you Tim that is a nice little list that I am going to use. At last!!! Many thanks my friends.
 
THANK you Tim that is a nice little list that I am going to use. At last!!! Many thanks my friends.

Do keep in mind that Christians aren't going to be that impressed by similarity of imagery. Most are perfectly willing to acknowledge that Christian art grew naturally out of the pagan art of the time. You would need a very good argument as to why this indicates that an element of the Christian religion was plagiarized. For this reason, I wouldn't bother with the Horus thing.
 
Do keep in mind that Christians aren't going to be that impressed by similarity of imagery. Most are perfectly willing to acknowledge that Christian art grew naturally out of the pagan art of the time. You would need a very good argument as to why this indicates that an element of the Christian religion was plagiarized. For this reason, I wouldn't bother with the Horus thing.

Quite right. One common tactic when faced with similar motifs that clearly antedate Christ is to claim that demons, knowing what God intended, deliberately planted similar material in pagan myth before the time of Jesus in order to discredit Christianity. Here's another excerpt from Justin Martyr's First Apology, in which he states this doctrine:

CHAPTER LIV -- ORIGIN OF HEATHEN MYTHOLOGY.

. . . . The prophet Moses, then, was, as we have already said, older than all writers; and by him, as we have also said before, it was thus predicted: "There shall not fail a prince from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He come for whom it is reserved; and He shall be the desire of the Gentiles, binding His foal to the vine, washing His robe in the blood of the grape." The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. And because in the prophecy of Moses it had not been expressly intimated whether He who was to come was the Son of God, and whether He would, riding on the foal, remain on earth or ascend into heaven, and because the name of "foal" could mean either the foal of an ass or the foal of a horse, they, not knowing whether He who was foretold would bring the foal of an ass or of a horse as the sign of His coming, nor whether He was the Son of God, as we said above, or of man, gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. And when they heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. And when they knew what was said, as has been cited above, in the prophecies written aforetime, "Strong as a giant to run his course," they said that Hercules was strong, and had journeyed over the whole earth. And when, again, they learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Aesculapius.

In the twentieth century C.S. Lewis restated this doctrine in a kindlier manner. He said the reason there were earlier analogues of the Passion was that it was the one true myth. All the others were pale reflections that echoed back in time. he used the analogy of Plato's bed, i.e. that there was a perfect bed (along with everything else) in heaven, the quintessence of "bedness." Alll the beds on earth were imperfect copies. The earlier versions of the Passion / Resurrection myth were to introduce the human race to the concept.

While Lewis' version is less antagonistic to paganism than that of Justin Martyr, it is equally unfalsifiable and also turns cause and effect on its head.
 
Do keep in mind that Christians aren't going to be that impressed by similarity of imagery. Most are perfectly willing to acknowledge that Christian art grew naturally out of the pagan art of the time. You would need a very good argument as to why this indicates that an element of the Christian religion was plagiarized. For this reason, I wouldn't bother with the Horus thing.

I'm using Gospel Fiction as a source along with the paragraph of similarities Tim mentioned. I think anyone who can look at all those similarities that existed before religion and think they were NOT plagiarized have to be very thick indeed. I don't think my opponent is that bad, but we'll see.

Yeah I'm gonna chuck in that St. Justin Martyr thing as well, it just makes them look even worse! The fact that we have a Christian apologist acknowledging these similarities I think will be much stronger for them than me just presenting similarities on their own. That, coupled with the laughable "demon explanation" he gives, I think will work just fine in my favour.

Thanks for the help guys.
 
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