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Ed Beyond misinformation

Few of "us" - you, me, Oystein etc could remain standing still when faced with something we don't understand. ;)

Fact of the matter is, you don't need to understand the whole subject. I'm not an engineer, many of the "mathy" arguments sail over my head. I think there's a saying you like to use, something about alligators and swamps.

The "truther" arguments for controlled demolition never approach a level of logical consideration. They want you to think a mistake or admission in a report means to "throw out the baby with the bath water". They fail to produce anything even approaching science.
 
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Right, I think that's enough about me and my ******* fence.

@DGM - do you have the numbers of signers of the petition grouped by qualification handy? Has this actually been done?

e.g. Tony's most prominent work was the paper "Missing Jolt"
--are you aware of it?
--Do you know what was wrong with it?
--do you want an explanation of what was wrong?
--What level of explanation - broad overview OR details?

I am aware of it but haven't read it. I think I know what was wrong with it (from your explanations it is to do with analyzing the wrong stage of collapse, similar to the Steven Dusterwald claims you invalidated for me). If you would be so kind I would welcome another explanation (broad overview).
 
There may also be a little 'faith based' reasoning going on in my case. The question keeps nagging me about the number of qualified people who have signed the AE911Truth petition. How has it happened if there's nothing at all in the claims? Surely nobody would be able to get a single geographer to sign a petition calling for more money for studies to determine whether the earth is flat.

This begs a few questions so we will start with the obvious first - what is it exactly these folks have signed?

On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 – specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7. We believe there is sufficient doubt about the official story to justify re-opening the 9/11 investigation. The new investigation must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that might have been the actual cause of the destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and Building 7. (emphasis added)

The petition calls for a new investigation into the "possible use of explosives". That is not the same as say "disagreement with NIST's collapse sequence". All they have agreed to is request for a new investigation that examines the possible use of explosives, an inquiry which had not yet been completed when the petition was created in 2006 (but has since - this information is withheld from potential new signers). The petition merely speaks of "sufficient doubt" and does NOT CLAIM use of explosives in a CD - only an inference of CD derived from suggesting that "the possible use of explosives" be part of a full inquiry. It is false to claim the 2,300+ signers believe there was CD, or they believe the NIST was wrong or lied, when they have in fact agreed to no such thing.

The petition is written so it is easy to agree with and carries no obligation to "do" anything. This is just as well since virtually none of the signers do anything to spread 9/11 Truth. They don't tell their colleagues or else there would be a lot more signatures. They don't speak at industry conferences and they don't publish about 9/11 Truth. And they have never even attempted to come up with an alternative hypothesis for what they believe really happened. Nor does Gage call upon their supposed experience or expertise for his presentations when examining the many areas that are beyond his qualifications, which at best makes Gage a poor investigator.

In 8 years Richard Gage has only managed to get just 2,300 of the MILLIONS of potential signers to John Hancock this highly watered-down version of his beliefs. I'm not sure why anyone finds it particularly compelling.
 
Fact of the matter is, you don't need to understand the whole subject. I'm not an engineer, many of the "mathy" arguments sail over my head.
So true. In fact the engineers are the ones most likely to lose the plot. That first ever internet post of mine back in 2007 which said:
The paper referenced as Engineering Reality by Tony Szamboti is typical of many which look impressive in detail to the non-engineer. The complex calculations may even be correct but the base premises are faulty and the resulting conclusions can readily be demonstrated to be totally wrong.
So many engineers dive into the maths and formulas BEFORE they define WTF they are talking about. And if you get the starting premises wrong you are almost certainly wasting your time. At risk of getting shot again ( :rolleyes:) -- IMO that is the main reason that Bazant and the academics went astray on the bits they got wrong. So busy improving their maths that they forgot they were not describing the real event.

Yes that is a monotonous theme of mine BUT look at the discussions of "Missing Jolt" AND all those about columns falling into or missing axial contact (which is only the generic class of which Missing Jolt is a specific example.) Those discussions a waste of effort. Truthers set a false scenario and too many debunkers following the false trail. They assume a scenario that NEVER existed and never could exist. (The Szamboti WTC7 Girder Walk-off stuff sets a similar trap which so many fall for.)
I think there's a saying you like to use, something about alligators and swamps.
That's one version. Otherwise stated as "forests v trees" or the amplified version "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree? is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest." :)

The "truther" arguments for controlled demolition never approach a level of logical consideration. They want you to think a mistake or admission in a report means to "throw out the baby with the bath water". They fail to produce anything even approaching science.
They throw out the baby and KEEP the bathwater. :D
 
This begs a few questions so we will start with the obvious first - what is it exactly these folks have signed?

On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 – specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7. We believe there is sufficient doubt about the official story to justify re-opening the 9/11 investigation. The new investigation must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that might have been the actual cause of the destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and Building 7. (emphasis added)

The petition calls for a new investigation into the "possible use of explosives". That is not the same as say "disagreement with NIST's collapse sequence". All they have agreed to is request for a new investigation that examines the possible use of explosives, an inquiry which had not yet been completed when the petition was created in 2006 (but has since - this information is withheld from potential new signers). The petition merely speaks of "sufficient doubt" and does NOT CLAIM use of explosives in a CD - only an inference of CD derived from suggesting that "the possible use of explosives" be part of a full inquiry. It is false to claim the 2,300+ signers believe there was CD, or they believe the NIST was wrong or lied, when they have in fact agreed to no such thing.

Well said and well timed Mark.

And apposite to DGM's comment on "alligators v swamps" --- if that reference is not too obtuse. :D
 
So true. In fact the engineers are the ones most likely to lose the plot.

The paper referenced as Engineering Reality by Tony Szamboti is typical of many which look impressive in detail to the non-engineer.

Brings back old memories. Tony and I went back and forth through email about the unlikelihood of perfect column on column impact. He keep trying to steer me to the math but I couldn't get past reality. :)
 
Brings back old memories. Tony and I went back and forth through email about the unlikelihood of perfect column on column impact. He keep trying to steer me to the math but I couldn't get past reality. :)
Tell me something.

Read my recent lengthy explanation for Jango but bottom line is for the top block to be moving downwards - tilting OR falling - the column ends have already missed.

It is so bleedingly obvious.

If the bit above is lower the gap the column was in is shorter. The column CANNOT still be there intact. And it cannot still be there broken into two AND with a gap to fall through to hit or miss.

And "tilt" occurs because the inter floor gap on one side is shorter than the gap on the other side.

The downwards movement has already occurred whether falling Top Block is falling or merely tilting.

Tony persists with at least two errors which come from the same lack of understanding of the cascade failure mechanism. And, sadly, he is not alone. Bazant has a lot to answer for:

Tony insists that there was no source for the horizontal movement of the Top Block which would cause the columns to miss. Same error that many debunkers and academics make - treating it as "one object" - similar to the 1D underpinning of those aspects of Banzant's which are nonsense.

Failure of each column is failure of that column. And pressing downwards on a column - esp one affected by heat - will cause that specific column to fail/buckle/ wrap around and the two parts PASS each other as the gap occupied by the column gets shorter.

THEN add up all the columns each of which is failing to give you the full scenario.

FACT is they failed.
FACT is they failed by getting shorter - ends closer together;
FACT is they had enough force available for whatever failure each one underwent.

THEREFORE Tony's "no source of a big horizontal force" needs pushing back where it came from into the arse end of a male bovine.

And the second - related - error - he is looking for a coming event when the time for that event is already past.

[/EndAdrenalineRush]


I'll go make a cup of tea. :mad:
 
...I am aware of it but haven't read it. I think I know what was wrong with it (from your explanations it is to do with analyzing the wrong stage of collapse, similar to the Steven Dusterwald claims you invalidated for me). If you would be so kind I would welcome another explanation (broad overview).
Will do - give me a few hours to think about it.
 
I always looked at in a more simple frame. Thinking the interaction of all members in a collapse such as what was seen on 9/11 as orderly is simply nonsense. Chaos is the only order of the day.
Understood. There are members who prefer the "global" explanation whether technical or behavioural AKA "It was 19 terrorists with four planes"

But if the opponent or discussion partner is into details I will try to respond at the legitimate level of those details.

And there is a wealth of potential confusion in that concept of "legitimate level of details"

look to my "discussions" on the topic - I must be wrong - truthers, debunkers AND Major_Tom disagree with me :rolleyes:
 
Gage has taken 19 terrorists and four planes and built himself a living. Does he know he is spreading lies and only fooling idiots like the Boston bombers? Does he care - look at his latest effort, anti-science BS labeled science.

Are Gage's lies due to ignornace, Gage's gullibility, or fraud. The followers are due to ignorance. What is Gage's excuse.

The reality of 911, it was due to the action of 19 terrorists who took four plane. That is the only reality. The lies from 911 truth are so darn stupid, they need not study, no research, they fail on face value.

That said, it is sad how 911 truth believers fall for the dumbest claims, and are able to ignore the actions of 19 delusional nuts who died and murdered for ideas born in a spoiled Saudi. We have UBL misleading his followers, and Gage, misleading his followers - sad humans who lie and hate their fellow humans, Gage and UBL, fooling idiots with BS.

Lucky for the world, Gage and UBL fool a fringe few;, the few the dumb, 911 truth believers
 
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It is interesting to see so many foreigners sign a petition on behalf of the people of the United States. Is that a problem for truth?
 
Surely nobody would be able to get a single geographer to sign a petition calling for more money for studies to determine whether the earth is flat.
What makes you think that the number of loons among geographers is somehow inferior to that of other disciplines?

I have no doubt that a fair number, perhaps in the dozens, would sign that, if presented adequately.

A less extreme example - geocentrism:

http://galileowaswrong.blogspot.com/

How many astronomers will subscribe to that? Probably a good bunch. Those religiously motivated would be more prone.
 
@DGM - do you have the numbers of signers of the petition grouped by qualification handy? Has this actually been done?
...

About 3 years ago, I went through the list of signatories, focusing on the category "Professional Engineers (degreed & licensed)". Two reasons for this focus: a) The most relevant engineering qualifications, structural and civil engineering, require licensing by US state for engineers to practice b) The states publish rosters of all Professional (i.e. licensed) Engineers (P.E.s).
Back then, when they had a bit over 300 P.E.s, I found that this represented about 0.02-0.04% of all P.E.s in most states (that usually includes retired or inactive licenses). A handful of the smallest states didn't have even 1 PE sign up for Gage.
On both the rosters and the petition, civil and structural engineers were slightly more than half of the number, so the percentage applies to them as well.

Today, of the 2352 signatories, 433 are P.E.s - an increase of not quite 40% in 3 years. So still, under 0.05% of the civial and structural engineers in the USA have signed the petition - less than 1 in 2000.

They have 338 licensed architects. The AIA has ca. 80,000 regular members, with my understanding that AIA membership is premised on you being a licensed architect in good standing (in addition, they have "Associate AIA" membership). I don't know what percentage of licensed architects are AIA members. Anyway, 338 out of more than 80,000, that's at most about 0.4% of the licensed architects in the USA.

The remaining signers - 882 unlicensed engineers, 123 unlicensed architects, 576 non-US architects and engineers - either have qualifications the relevance of which to assessing building collapses is highly questionable, or (in case of the foreigners) they represent a far far smaller fringe minority in their countries. For example: They have 59 signers from the UK. That's 3% the number of US signers, while the UK population is 20% of US population. It stands to reason that, as a first approximation, less than 0.01% of the UK's civil and structural engineers support Gage. This is after Gage having toured the UK at least two times, most recently in April.


When you take into account and compare with the percentages of the general population that extremist left or right political parties draw (for example, the neo-nazi NPD in Germany got 1.3% in the last Federal election), or that are believers in weird, non-mainstream religions (e.g. Scientology claims 0.2% of the UK population, 1.6% of Americans are Mormons; this, by the way, includes truth leader SE Jones who actually has a paper in his vita that purports to present evidence that Jesus visited North America!), or that suffer from serious cognitive deseases (prevalence of schizophrenia is estimated at around 0.5%), perhaps you can see that a self-selected group of under 0.05% of any adult sub-population really is a tiny fringe that shouldn't be taken serious just because of their numbers. People on the fringes are often very weird indeed!
 
My state-by-state rosters were done in Telltale Tom's thread.
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Thanks.
 
Brings back old memories. Tony and I went back and forth through email about the unlikelihood of perfect column on column impact. He keep trying to steer me to the math but I couldn't get past reality. :)

I thinks that's a fairly common experience, having been through very much the same process with him myself on the forum. The whole Missing Jolt hypothesis is a classic case of GIGO, and Tony is permanently and obliviously focused on what happens to the garbage in the middle of the process.

Dave
 
About 3 years ago, I went through the list of signatories, focusing on the category "Professional Engineers (degreed & licensed)". Two reasons for this focus: a) The most relevant engineering qualifications, structural and civil engineering, require licensing by US state for engineers to practice b) The states publish rosters of all Professional (i.e. licensed) Engineers (P.E.s).
Back then, when they had a bit over 300 P.E.s, I found that this represented about 0.02-0.04% of all P.E.s in most states (that usually includes retired or inactive licenses). A handful of the smallest states didn't have even 1 PE sign up for Gage.
On both the rosters and the petition, civil and structural engineers were slightly more than half of the number, so the percentage applies to them as well.

Today, of the 2352 signatories, 433 are P.E.s - an increase of not quite 40% in 3 years. So still, under 0.05% of the civial and structural engineers in the USA have signed the petition - less than 1 in 2000.

They have 338 licensed architects. The AIA has ca. 80,000 regular members, with my understanding that AIA membership is premised on you being a licensed architect in good standing (in addition, they have "Associate AIA" membership). I don't know what percentage of licensed architects are AIA members. Anyway, 338 out of more than 80,000, that's at most about 0.4% of the licensed architects in the USA.

Just to add on a bit......I looked at the numbers a few years ago as well. At that time, there were about 90-95k licensed architects in the US. As for engineers......most states only have one P.E. license......i.e. an electrical, mechanical, civil and structural engineer all have the exact same license and it is up to the individual to practice (and seal documents) up to their own acknowledged expertise. In recent years, some states have moved to create a separate "structural engineer" (S.E.) http://www.engineering.com/Library/...ructural-Engineer-SE-Licensure-Explained.aspx
 

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