Best Cold Reading demo?

[T'ai Chi]

Hey, I am just waiting for that good demo of mediumship. If TC thinks the discussion is over, and we haven't seen one, does he admit that no such demo exist? Only then would it be fair for TC to leave that discussion.

If his admission does not emerge, one might suspect TC was running away from the discussion....

Stay focused here, please.

I simply asked for the best example(s) of cold reading demos, and videos or transcripts of this.

Simple..

 

[T'ai Chi]

No statistical analysis of transcripts is ever going to convince me, unless it includes a reasonable calculation of the probability of each hit occurring by chance. I doubt very much that's ever going to happen.

So, those psychics should take another tack. How about finding the next ten missing kids?

~~ Paul

How about answering my original query and providing transcripts or videos of what you consider the best cold reading demo(s) from someone who doesn't claim to be a medium?

 

[T'ai Chi]

Er the very first post after Tai'Chi's was a response that seems to answer his question.

Darat, I've been told that mere pointers to books don't cut it around here. I think I'll need to see the actual transcripts posted, a link to a video of it, actual evidence.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Why can't anyone here answer your question, T'ai?

I think some of them possibly could, hopefully.

 

[voidx]

Yes, thanks for bringing this up again! It seems skeptics don't want to give specifics (except ersby), and yet how many times have we heard or read, "Any good cold reader could do what that "medium" does?" Or, "That's obviously just cold reading."

I think that since these statements are made, that people who feel this way should have some knowledge that cold readers have -actually- done this, gotten mediumistic-types of validations by cold reading, and been convincing.

Its fine to criticize mediumship and its explainable as cold reading. But people who believe that mediumship is "just what a cold reader could do" should have some reason for believing that, shouldn't they?

Why can't anyone here answer your question, T'ai?

This is just the vice versa of the problem we have with you at times. We don't find the examples of phsychic mediums as convincing as you do. The threads discussing the transcripts should make that fairly clear. While you get the impression there "might be something to it" we get the impression that it looks close enough to cold reading that it might as well be...cold reading. While I disagree with those that make the statement you complain against, I also disagree that you've not been shown examples of cold reading that exhibits many of the attributes of JE or any other phsychic medium. That we consider it a difference of style and amount of practice, and you consider it that JE is still more consistent, detailed, and might possibly be real, is merely our individual opinions. But I think we've at least attempted to show with examples how we think JE and others like him are merely well practiced cold readers. We haven't pulled the opinion out of our arse as you seem to imply at the end of your post.

 

[Clancie]

T'ai Chi,

I read your quote about the Ian Rowland book, but I thought we were all interested in cold reading mediumistic demos (at least I am).

Seriously, Darat, is this the best cold reading demo you can recommend--a transcript of Ian's tarot reading and another one he with astrology? One thing I've always valued about mediumship is that,imo, the bar is set higher because the goal is for someone to come up with -specifics- about particular deceased people the sitter values.

Astrology and tarot readings (which we've seen can be satisfying just by telling people a lot of feel-good generalities about themselves) really don't seem at all comparable to a cold reading mediumship demo to me.

Are these examples from IR really what skeptics mean when they say, "Good cold readers can do just as well as (fill in the name of your medium of choice)"?

 

[Clancie]

Posted by voidx

I also disagree that you've not been shown examples of cold reading that exhibits many of the attributes of JE or any other psychic medium

Okay, voidx.....Who?

As for mediums I've recommended, Mrs. Piper did thousands of readings that have been documented and widely praised for their overall consistency and quality. If people are seriously interested in a medium who was extensively studied (for 27 years) with no evidence of fraud, she's one I'd recommend.

I hardly think its my fault that I recommend the work of someone and the research about her is too extensive to put in a 250 word post for everyone's convenience. If people are truly interested to look at someone who is often cited as one of the best examples of mediumship, they should (and can) check her work out--even books -about- her are better than nothing.

I have read and seen everything I could about cold reading (probably more than most people here, as a matter of fact). I'm looking for good examples and so far haven't found them, but I'm open to it. Its frustrating to be told, "Cold readers can do that," but not get any name or work samples of who these great cold readers are!

 

[CFLarsen]

You demand people to post mediums' transcripts here and nothing less, so why would you expect me to buy a book to see the best examples of cold reading?

Why can't you post some here?

Because the transcript is very long and it would violate not only forum rules, but also international copyright laws. Surely, you don't want me to show you a partial transcript?

Buy the book, T'ai Chi. You asked for evidence, I gave it. If you refuse to even look at it, that is your problem.

Stay focused here, please.

I simply asked for the best example(s) of cold reading demos, and videos or transcripts of this.

Simple..

I am very focused. And I am not fooled by you opening a thread that raises a question already beaten to death here either.

How about answering my original query and providing transcripts or videos of what you consider the best cold reading demo(s) from someone who doesn't claim to be a medium?

What would be the purpose?

I read your quote about the Ian Rowland book, but I thought we were all interested in cold reading mediumistic demos (at least I am).

No, you are not. Whenever you are presented with one, you simply dismiss it.

Seriously, Darat. Is that a good enough comparison--Ian's claim that these are (only lightly edited) transcripts of his tarot reading and another one he did for astrology? One thing I've always valued about mediumship readings is that,imo, the bar is set higher because the goal is for someone to come up with -specifics- about particular deceased people the sitter values.

What, in Rowland's book, does not apply to cold reading as a way of emulating mediumship?

Astrology and tarot readings that tell people a lot of feel-good generalities about themselves really don't seem at all comparable to a cold reading mediumship demo to me.

Why not? Don't just say "Nah, not good enough!" Be specific!

Are these examples from IR really what skeptics mean when they say, "Good cold readers can do just as well as (fill in the name of your medium of choice)"?

You forget - or, leave out - the very embarrassing fact that the sitters judged the readings to be "99,9% accurate". Far, far, far better than any psychic.

 

[Darat]

Darat, I've been told that mere pointers to books don't cut it around here. I think I'll need to see the actual transcripts posted, a link to a video of it, actual evidence.

You've pointed me in the past to books to support your claims...

 

[Darat]

T'ai Chi,

I read your quote about the Ian Rowland book, but I thought we were all interested in cold reading mediumistic demos (at least I am).

Seriously, Darat, is this the best cold reading demo you can recommend--a transcript of Ian's tarot reading and another one he with astrology? One thing I've always valued about mediumship is that,imo, the bar is set higher because the goal is for someone to come up with -specifics- about particular deceased people the sitter values.

Astrology and tarot readings (which we've seen can be satisfying just by telling people a lot of feel-good generalities about themselves) really don't seem at all comparable to a cold reading mediumship demo to me.

Are these examples from IR really what skeptics mean when they say, "Good cold readers can do just as well as (fill in the name of your medium of choice)"?

But of course the bar is higher when you are trying to prove something. After all you can show me a million black crows and not prove anything whilst I only need to show you one white crow to prove you are wrong.

Edited to add. (And a spelling correction)

And I would say if you want to see the best examples of cold readings you need to look at people like JE, SB, Doris and so on. "Admitted cold readers" is rather more difficult as what is the motivation for someone to film or undergo 100s of hours of cold reading when they only need to show the one white crow?

 

[voidx]

Okay, voidx.....Who?

We brought up several examples in the threads involving NoZed, and Ersby's poll I believe of spotting who was a real medium and who was an admitted cold reader. I believe one of those readings was Rolands, one was Ersby's, one was NoZed's. We pointed out why we thought those posts exhibited the same tactics as JE used, although admitting the style was different, and that JE's schtick was better and more consistent. And this is not the first time I've recounted this either.

As for mediums I've recommended, Mrs. Piper did thousands of readings that have been documented and widely praised for their overall consistency and quality. If people are seriously interested in a medium who was extensively studied (for 27 years) with no evidence of fraud, she's one I'd recommend.

Well hold on. One issue at a time. No one has claimed a cold reader or skeptic can emulate a trance medium now have they? So Piper is a seperate issue. I'm pretty sure we're talking about JE type mediums here.

I hardly think its my fault that I recommend the work of someone and the research about her is too extensive to put in a 250 word post for everyone's convenience. If people are truly interested to look at someone who is often cited as one of the best examples of mediumship, they should (and can) check her work out--even books -about- her are better than nothing.

All fine and good. Has nothing to do with the cold reading demo though. We're not discussing trance mediums in here so far as I know so lets stick to one type of mediumship for the time being please.

I have read and seen everything I could about cold reading (probably more than most people here, as a matter of fact). I'm looking for good examples and so far haven't found them, but I'm open to it. Its frustrating to be told, "Cold readers can do that," but not get any name or work samples of who these great cold readers are!

Yet only you seems to put more merit in the validations seen in mediumship transcripts of the JE style where we see them as not that impressive, and far from conclusive. Which is why when we see hints of tactics JE uses in the transcripts of cold readers such as NoZed, Ersby, Roland, that we say their similiar enough that its possible JE is just a very well practiced and accomplished cold reader. If you remember I agree that I have not seen a cold reading demo on the exact same level as JE. Doesn't stop me from seeing the multiple similiarities between his transcripts and those of the cold readers we reviewed in those past threads.

Again, we do have a pretty decent basis for assuming what psychic mediums like JE and JVP do is quite possibly cold reading. Its obvious there are a lot of simularities. You were making it sound like (intentional or not) we had nothing solid on which we were basing our opinion and on that I completely disagree with you.

 

[Clancie]

Darat,

So....are you saying that a tarot and an astrology cold reading are good comparisons with a mediumship demo?

 

[CFLarsen]

You've pointed me in the past to books to support your claims...

We will see something very interesting here. T'ai Chi will not retract the evidence - the books in question, which he himself has referred to. He may harp about books apparently not being good enough as evidence, but he will not retract his own.

Just watch.

 

[Thanz]

Darat,

So....are you saying that a tarot and an astrology cold reading are good comparisons with a mediumship demo?

I haven't got Mr. Rowland's book, so I haven't actually read these readings, but my initial reaction is that they would be fine comparisons. If you ask me, I think that the difference between mediums, palm readers, tarot card readers, crystal ball gazers, etc. is just the schtick that they employ. Each needs a prop that they connect to the messages that they get, whether it be the cards, the crystal ball or the spirit world, or any combination thereof.

I don't see why the specific prop (mediumship) is so important to you in the examination of the techniques. Please explain why you think it is more than just style, as you seem to.

 

[Darat]

Darat,

So....are you saying that a tarot and an astrology cold reading are good comparisons with a mediumship demo?

Clancie - please note my comment:

"'Admitted cold readers' is rather more difficult as what is the motivation for someone to film or undergo 100s of hours of cold reading when they only need to show the one white crow?"

I think it would be very hard to satisfy what I think your requirement for a cold reading demo would be. Since to attempt to duplicate a JE or SB act to a similar scale would require enormous resources and there is no reason or motivation to do that to demonstrate that at least one crow isn't quite as black as the others.* And as many people do keep mentioning the burden of evidence isn't on the doubters.

I pretty much agree with how voidx puts it when he says:

"Yet only you seems to put more merit in the validations seen in mediumship transcripts of the JE style where we see them as not that impressive, and far from conclusive. Which is why when we see hints of tactics JE uses in the transcripts of cold readers such as NoZed, Ersby, Roland, that we say their similiar enough that its possible JE is just a very well practiced and accomplished cold reader. If you remember I agree that I have not seen a cold reading demo on the exact same level as JE. Doesn't stop me from seeing the multiple similiarities between his transcripts and those of the cold readers we reviewed in those past threads.

Again, we do have a pretty decent basis for assuming what psychic mediums like JE and JVP do is quite possibly cold reading. Its obvious there are a lot of simularities. You were making it sound like (intentional or not) we had nothing solid on which we were basing our opinion and on that I completely disagree with you."


(*NB: Perhaps the Carlos hoax is a very strong indicator that it could be done.)

 

[T'ai Chi]

But of course the bar is higher when you are trying to prove something.

Scientists talk about providing evidence for, not proving.

Do you agree or disagree those who say mediums are simply cold readers are immune from providing evidence?

And I would say if you want to see the best examples of cold readings you need to look at people like JE, SB, Doris and so on.

And I've already said, I'm talking about people who don't claim to be mediums or people who are admitted cold readers.

"Admitted cold readers" is rather more difficult as what is the motivation for someone to film or undergo 100s of hours of cold reading when they only need to show the one white crow?

The people who do this for their livelihood are likely to have more than enough material.

 

[T'ai Chi]

You've pointed me in the past to books to support your claims...

I know, and I was called on it for doing so.

Now people who called me on it do the exact same thing.

Go figure...

Oh, and still no video.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Because the transcript is very long and it would violate not only forum rules, but also international copyright laws. Surely, you don't want me to show you a partial transcript?

Show me anything you feel provides evidence using your best judgement.

Buy the book, T'ai Chi. You asked for evidence, I gave it. If you refuse to even look at it, that is your problem.

You didn't seem to accept that kind of explanation from me when I said for you to go get the Conscious Universe. Interesting.

Maybe I am mistaken and you did accept the Conscious Universe as evidence??

I am very focused.

Please provide actual evidence of that and post some transcripts or links to a video of what you consider to be the best cold reading demo(s).

You forget - or, leave out - the very embarrassing fact that the sitters judged the readings to be "99,9% accurate". Far, far, far better than any psychic.

Only embarassing for you since you haven't provided actual evidence.

While you're at it, please provide evidence that videotapes increase the hit rate in the ganzfeld experiments.

 

[T'ai Chi]

T'ai Chi,

I read your quote about the Ian Rowland book, but I thought we were all interested in cold reading mediumistic demos (at least I am).

I am, and I will check it out eventually. I do find it quite interesting that my proposal of the Conscious Universe as logging some evidence for psi was heavily criticized though, and now the same criticizer is recommending I go get a book.

Also, I'm still waiting on:

a) a concensus from the skeptics on what the best cold reading demo(s) is(are), and

b) videos of the demo(s)

 

[CFLarsen]

Show me anything you feel provides evidence using your best judgement.

No, I am asking you if you feel a partial transcript would be sufficient. Please answer the question.

You didn't seem to accept that kind of explanation from me when I said for you to go get the Conscious Universe. Interesting.

Maybe I am mistaken and you did accept the Conscious Universe as evidence??

No, I did not. I have read the CU, the reference you gave. I find that there is nothing there that even constitutes evidence.

Now, have you read my reference? Yes or no?

Please provide actual evidence of that and post some transcripts or links to a video of what you consider to be the best cold reading demo(s).

I have referred you to a cold reader that can prove that the sitters gave him 99.9% accuracy readings. What more do you want? Do you deny that this is far, far better than any psychic claims?

Only embarassing for you since you haven't provided actual evidence.

Yes, I have, T'ai Chi. You have just refused to even look at it.

While you're at it, please provide evidence that videotapes increase the hit rate in the ganzfeld experiments.

With this statement, you have made it clear that you are not interested in seeking evidence. You want to play games. Not with me, T'ai Chi.

Not with me.