Bar-coded Currency

ktesibios said:
Dave, it smells very strongly as if you're advocating a total surveillance society- in other words, the sort of police state that even the antheap experts of Red China never dreamed possible.

Think of this- while such a society might well make life very difficult for people you don't approve of, what guarantee do you have that you yourself won't become one of the people who some utterly unaccountable bureaucrat (one of the breeds who would flourish in a system of total social control) doesn't approve of?

Welcome to my ignore list.
Slightly off topic but if you want to live outside the fiat monetary regime you can use gold and silver bullion as money. Unfortunately, most merchants don't accept it yet but as the dollar continues it's collapse, more and more people are interested in the real money.
Using silver coin gets you outside of the spying and the debasement. I know of one individual who insists on being paid in silver for his services. I'm not sure of the legality of it but it would be hard to enforce laws against it.
 
Kullervo said:
That's enough. I'm going back to paying for everything with change.

Good man! It's even easier to put chips in coins.

The RFID stuff (in the shape of transponder chips on things in shops) has been trialled in the UK. Predictably, the groups who worry about erosions in our privacy had forty thousand fits, and the trial finished early.

For that trial, the display unit was set up to take a photo of the user when they took some razor blades off the shelf. This was set up because razor blades are expensive, portable, and popular with shoplifters. As you took them, you'd be photographed. When they were scanned at the till, your photograph would be deleted. If they left the building but weren't scanned, your photo would be sent to the police ready for your court appearance.

The other trial was a more standard one, simply to test the automatic summing of items at checkouts. They kept that one quiet to avoid being pounced on by the privacy groups, although I'm not at all sure why it should be thought significantly different to individually scanning the items by hand.
 
richardm said:
Good man! It's even easier to put chips in coins.
Truly? I'd think that the pressure involved in stamping them would destroy any circuitry in the process. At what stage in the minting process are the chips introduced, and can the cost of manufacture possibly be low enough to make it economical? Right now I believe it costs more than 1c to mint a penny.

Now you really got me worried.
 
Actually, it's not the pressure from stamping. It's the metal. Hard to scan through it. With soft metals, like gold, any nook you could put a chip in could get mashed shut or gouged off with routine handling.

Besides, there's no reason not to mint coins with serial numbers on 'em, or even barcode them with a slightly dissimilar 'contaminant' metal that would show up on a scanner, but be invisible to people. Such a 'barcode' could be done straight through the metal, so no amount of defacing would remove it.

Of course, once a number or barcode pattern has been *stamped* into metal, it affects the structure of the metal very deeply into the metal, and shows up in an XRAY like it was never filed off....

They could stamp that pattern onto the coin, THEN stamp the face onto it to conceal it, and you would be none the wiser, and only thorough mangling would remove the pattern from *inside* the coin. This would be the cheapest and simplest solution.

Besides, the government would probably make any "new" gold coins have a zinc core, like all the "silver" coins they put out now. That core could have any pattern they liked. The only way to remove it would be to file it down to nothing.

Of course, any defacement of money can (and does) render it technically NOT 'legal tender' (and it's a crime!), so once you've gone to all the trouble, you've only (legally) got a piece of paper or disk of metal.

Added: Solid state X-RAY scanners (as used in a dentist's office), combined with OCR would do the job nicely.

If someone IS routinely defacing money, an "account 0" could be assigned. Someone who's doing LOTS of this defacement will end up with a peak on "account 0", and could be caught at it. Their bills (and coins) won't scan. When someone has to manually read the money, they'll still get the number that can be noted (before the bill or coin is destroyed), and added to the account that originally received it from a bank. Now, once again, the matching and counting occurs over a period of time, and YOU have a big spike on "account 0", instead of a few "hits". Guess what? You're caught! First time, you get a warning about accepting defaced money, and it's filed away with your "records". If it keeps up, then next time, an arrest warrant could be filed.

Of course, this places a certain LIABILITY on people who withdraw money for other people, who then go on to deface the money. It all shows up on THEIR account. In addition, over half of all convictions occur because people don't know when to keep their mouths shut. They "confess" their sins to the police, who will not "forgive" them, and these words (as the Miranda rights do mention) will be used against them in court. So, a certain number of "warnings" will end up with prosecutions, (or threatened prosecutions for information about who was paid). Handy leverage.
 
evildave said:
Actually, it's not the pressure from stamping. It's the metal.
I was thinking "Terminator" here.

Well, I guess it's back to barter and the grey market for me.
 
Hard to barter things at the grocery store, gas pump, or for rent, debts, etc.
 
And now that the shoplifting option seems to be vanishing, it's going to get worse.

OK, when you see me with that shopping cart full of recyclable cans and bottles, just smile and wink.
 
It's the metal. Hard to scan through it.
Why not make plastic coins? Any value could be defined by the chip inside it. People might even be able to buy scanners themselves: hold them above their wallet and all the change is automatically counted. Cash registers can automatically count how much is in the drawer.

Ease of use for everybody, and the government can prevent all sorts of crime. Who would dare to say no to that?
 
Earthborn said:
Why not make plastic coins? Any value could be defined by the chip inside it. People might even be able to buy scanners themselves: hold them above their wallet and all the change is automatically counted. Cash registers can automatically count how much is in the drawer.

Ease of use for everybody, and the government can prevent all sorts of crime. Who would dare to say no to that?

People who like privacy for one.
 
Less durable. Far too easy to mold. So much so that it would be cheap enough to counterfeit coins and make a profit.

It takes heavy, specialized, expensive equipment to make metal coin blanks and stamp them. And you can bet various governments watch where such equipment goes, and occasionally looks into the uses they're applied to.

We're just at the edge of having off-the-shelf computer printers that make plastic models based on data.

Got a special plastic? I bet you could melt or grind up a a few "good" coins to coat a lot of "bad" ones. Just tell the printer what parts to make with what plastic, and how thick, and "bingo", you have the coins. Besides, the "special" plastic can be duplicated to the point where only chemical analysis can tell it apart from the "real thing", and not human analysis.

Since it would be transponder-based security, it would be very easy to pass off counterfeit coins to people who don't have a transponder handy. And since it's a radio signal, that's easy to "fake" with a mass-produced chip, a SIMPLE detector/counter would only see valid-looking coins, and would have to be updated frequently with "bad" coin signatures. Overseas coin factories would appear like popcorn, and we'd be swimming in bad coins in no time. Especially if the value of plastic coins went up to a dollar or more. It would be well worth it implement a coin transponder to mimic the signals of "good" coins. Whatever security was applied to the coins would be cracked. If not by clever thinking, then by dissection and reverse-engineering, or duplication of the transponder. All it takes is an electro-magnetic impulse to "ring" the atoms, and a sensitive and quick enough, high-enough resolution detector to image the contents. In other words, you don't even have to physically dissect it, so "coating it in phosphorous" (or whatever) won't accomplish a thing. Making it "scan proof" would also make it self-destruct under all kinds of routine conditions, making "dead" transponders so common that people take transponderless coins.

Once you go to a truly secure "transponder" type security, you're right back to pure software security anyway, which is "cashless" again.
 
evildave said:
Actually, it's not the pressure from stamping. It's the metal. Hard to scan through it.

So just use the metal casing as the antenna ;)


In reality, it's probably not worth the effort. The future will be cashless, probably with a wireless device that you don't even need to take out of your pocket. Just tap in your PIN at the POS, your account is automatically debited and the transaction is done. There are already schemes in place testing this sort of thing using mobile phones and vending machines; it's only a matter of time before it catches on.
 
richardm said:


So just use the metal casing as the antenna ;)


In reality, it's probably not worth the effort. The future will be cashless, probably with a wireless device that you don't even need to take out of your pocket. Just tap in your PIN at the POS, your account is automatically debited and the transaction is done. There are already schemes in place testing this sort of thing using mobile phones and vending machines; it's only a matter of time before it catches on.

I think in the future, people will reject fiat moneary regimes. After watching their savings collapse, they will want to store their wealth in a commodity like gold and silver which is far less vulnerable to the manipulations of central bankers.

Why should citizens pay interest to international bankers for the isue of paper when the treasury has the right to issue paper itself? Why will they continue to allow themselves to be robbed by debasement by the thugs in power?
 
jake said:


I think in the future, people will reject fiat moneary regimes. After watching their savings collapse, they will want to store their wealth in a commodity like gold and silver which is far less vulnerable to the manipulations of central bankers.

Why should citizens pay interest to international bankers for the isue of paper when the treasury has the right to issue paper itself? Why will they continue to allow themselves to be robbed by debasement by the thugs in power?

I should think that people will continue to use monetary tokens for all the same reasons that they were introduced in the first place.

By the way, if you put your gold in a bank and use the paper tokens they issue you to spend that gold, the normal state of affairs is that they pay you interest.

Edited to add: Besides, silver and gold are just as much prone to variance in value as anything else. The current UK government has just sold off most of our gold reserves, with the predictable result that the price of gold has tanked. If you had all your life savings tied up in gold ingots, you'd be away crying now.
 
richardm said:
I should think that people will continue to use monetary tokens for all the same reasons that they were introduced in the first place.
Fiat money has been used as a means of fleecing the public. The public didn't design fiat for their benefit, the corrupt bankers did. The public only used it out of convenience.
By the way, if you put your gold in a bank and use the paper tokens they issue you to spend that gold, the normal state of affairs is that they pay you interest.
If so, they would be loaning money that's on deposit which is a risky practice. I don't need interest on my money if I'm not being fleeced by debasement and usury in the form of national debt to be taxed for later.
Edited to add: Besides, silver and gold are just as much prone to variance in value as anything else. The current UK government has just sold off most of our gold reserves, with the predictable result that the price of gold has tanked. If you had all your life savings tied up in gold ingots, you'd be away crying now. [/B]
Variance in value to what? Green toilet paper? Besides gold has gone up about 40% in the last two years. Silver has gone up 40% in the last year. It was very foolish of citizens to allow their rulers to semi-covertly sell off their gold and silver reserves. That sell-off was the only thing suppressing gold and silver investment.....exactly what is needed to prop up fiat monetary regimes.
 
jake said:
Variance in value to what? Green toilet paper?

... In variance to the value of whatever you want to buy. One day your ounce of gold might buy you a television set, the next day the television set vendor might decide he wants an ounce-and-a-half.

Besides gold has gone up about 40% in the last two years. Silver has gone up 40% in the last year.

Sure, this morning it was quite high. Right now it's slipping down to a 12 week low, and who knows what will happen in the future? Check out the price around 1999-2000. That's what happened when the UK began selling reserves. As I say - the value varies.

It was very foolish of citizens to allow their rulers to semi-covertly sell off their gold and silver reserves. That sell-off was the only thing suppressing gold and silver investment.....exactly what is needed to prop up fiat monetary regimes.

Nowt covert about it at all. They actually got some criticism for announcing the selloff before they started actually selling.

Anyway... we've gone off topic here.
 
richardm said:
... In variance to the value of whatever you want to buy. One day your ounce of gold might buy you a television set, the next day the television set vendor might decide he wants an ounce-and-a-half.
The market will decide how much gold he can get in exchange for a TV, not his wishes. Besides, the gold investors I know aren't stupid enough to watch TV.
Sure, this morning it was quite high. Right now it's slipping down to a 12 week low, and who knows what will happen in the future? Check out the price around 1999-2000. That's what happened when the UK began selling reserves. As I say - the value varies.
It's still way up over the dollar. It makes much better sense to own a rare commodity than "value" that can be created by the printing presses or for that matter, an entry into a ledger somewhere in cyberspace.
Nowt covert about it at all. They actually got some criticism for announcing the selloff before they started actually selling.

Anyway... we've gone off topic here.

Why does the mass media not disclose this multi trillion dollar scam of private bankers getting paid "interest" on green paper created out of thin air?

Your'e right, it's off topic.
 
Originally posted by jake
Why does the mass media not disclose this multi trillion dollar scam of private bankers getting paid "interest" on green paper created out of thin air?

Your'e right, it's off topic.

What, you mean the Federal Reserve?

The Federal Reserve does make quite a large amount of money charging banks for various services, plus interest charged for money loaned to it’s depository institutions. It a mistake, however, to believe that there is any private banker making a fortune off this money. What money the Fed doesn’t spend in its operating costs gets turned over to the Unites States Treasury. Typically, about 95% of the money earned by the Fed is turned over in this way, or about 20 to 25 billion dollars a year.

Many people believe the Federal Reserve is a private institution. This is not true. It’s considered independent of the government because it does not need Presidential or congressional approval for its decisions, nor does it receive congressional funding. At the same time, it is subject to congressional oversight, it’s activities and responsibilities can be changed by statute, and the members of its Board of Governors are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. This system was designed purposefully to keep the Fed independent of any one administration, yet still accountable to the government for its policies.

And no, the Gnomes of Zurich have nothing to do with it.
 
http://www.techworld.com/news/index.cfm?fuseaction=displaynews&NewsID=1176

The US government has just bought the world's biggest ever solid state disk from Texas Memory Systems.

The 2.5TB system is "the largest SSD installation in the world by far, without question", the executive VP for TMS, Woody Hutsell, told Techworld. The previous biggest one was under 500GB, he told us. At 2.5TB, it is roughly 10,000 times the size of the RAM in your PC.

The list price of the system, which is made up from 40 RamSan 320 units, reviewed here, is $4.7million, although the US government received a discount. It was installed by TMS' OEM Dynamic Solutions International.

Hmmmm....

A 2.5TB RAM disk metadata cache.

They're going to process a very big database, indeed.

Sounds to me like they're mining data for something.

But what would I know about it?
 

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