Bad Apologetics

[neutrino_cannon]

I clicked on your profile to see yur age (I guessed about 18) but I hope yur mature... Do you have any debating skills? If so, why are u avoiding a conversation LIKE A SISSY?

Im simply trying to clarify YOUR OWN TYPING.

Again, what is natural as u defined it (SEE YUR TYPING ABOVE) is when it is beyond scientific laws, correct? Answer yes or no.......

I did nothing to define "natural" muscleman, and if you must know, I am not eighteen.

And, while my debate skills may be mere rudament stubs compared with some of the posters here, I do have control of my CAPS LOCK key, and I don't type maniacal laughter.

It would appear, against all probability I might add, that you are trying to prove the existance of [G]od through the existance of an artifact considerably older than it should be.

The artifact is, as I understand it, organic correct? This would mean the primary means of decomposition is by microbes, which can be somewhat erratic.

Furthermore, I do not understand your point, thus my earlier reply. When the action of viruses was discovered, and no bacteria could be found, god was not invoked.

What we are looking at here is an artifact, possibly a hoax for reasons already posted, that does not prove anything if it is true. I don't see what your trying to show.

 

[Checkmite]

Hey Josh, I am very skeptical that this guy CAN investigate it himself (considering that there are solid alarms, cameras everywhere, HIGH SECURITY OTHER THAN HIMSELF "LIKE THE ST. PETERS SQUARE..."). I am skeptical that this guy will, AND SPEAK PUBLICLY AGAINST HIS OWN WORK..

You would have a point, but the photographs were taken in 1982, when people were allowed "up close" to the painting. The "high security" wasn't installed until the Pope visited the Basilica to perform Juan Diego's beautification ceremony.

By the way, aside from his mention in the legend of the Tilma, there are no other records of Juan Diego's existence. Did he suddenly appear on earth long enough to see the Virgin and get the image, and then disappear when the ruckus was over?

But regardless if its true or not... We are not talking about "Cracks of the paint"..

The miracle comes in the picture when the cloth last so long; about/over 500 yrs...(when over 100 yrs of its existence, no chemicals were discovered capable of restoring it, only lately...).

Cotton tapestries and artworks from middle-aged Europe (c. 1000 A.D.) have been found and are preserved in museums all over the world. Literally, the only thing holding them together is the paint. Had the tilma not been coated with white primer, and painted on, it would've deteriorated by now.

And that when scanned, no SKETCHES WERE FOUND.. AND NO "BRUSH- STROKES"...THATS THE SCIENTIFIC FINDING.....

I don't know if you're just refusing to look, but in the photo I posted, you can see the outline on Mary's irises - something that can only be the product of a brush stroke, because it doesn't occur in nature. In addition, the paint is so thick on her cheeks and forehead that it hides the "tooth" of the cloth it's painted on. Since a "brush stroke" is indicated by the presence of paint, there is more than enough evidence for "brush strokes", and your claim to the contrary is either invented or a misrepresentation.

 

[muscleman]

You would have a point, but the photographs were taken in 1982, when people were allowed "up close" to the painting. The "high security" wasn't installed until the Pope visited the Basilica to perform Juan Diego's beautification ceremony.

LOL, Vincent Vangough's painting are in high security because of its worth, but the Lady of Guadalupe isnt? Even before the 80's, the precious paintings which could cost for millions after millions are always in high security..

Your statement is a statement of a delusional man. And whos photograph is it? Besides, there are many many "copied" versions, Even we have our own painting here in our church, though not the original one (THE ONE THE POPE GAVE SCIENTISTS PERMISSION TO INVESTIGATE. This is in extreme security, as much as the "cup of the last supper"...), even the discovery channel stated that, just like the cup of the last supper (though this was much much older;'about 2000 yrs'.)

I really am extremely cautious with such publications, especially with the claim that it was investigated WITHOUT PERMISSION, how is that even possible? WAS THERE ONLY ONE SECURITY THERE? HIM? EVEN IN THE 60'S, VAN GOUGH'S PAINTINGS ARE IN HIGH SECURITY. besides, what magazine was it published? The atheists magazine? Or the "Super-Luck" magazine? Which one?

By the way, aside from his mention in the legend of the Tilma, there are no other records of Juan Diego's existence.

Maybe so, but the problem lies on the so-called INVESTIGATION WITHOUT PERMISSION, AND WITHOUT ANY OTHER SECURITY.... REMINDS ME OF THE "NATURE AS LUCK" DEBATE, PURELY ATHEISTIC CLAIM....Illogical, and unlikely....

Did he suddenly appear on earth long enough to see the Virgin and get the image, and then disappear when the ruckus was over?

????

Cotton tapestries and artworks from middle-aged Europe (c. 1000 A.D.) have been found and are preserved in museums all over the world. Literally, the only thing holding them together is the paint. Had the tilma not been coated with white primer, and painted on, it would've deteriorated by now.

Thank you for proving the miracles even the more.. By your statement, the only thing holding it together is the "PAINT".. But theres a problem, the cactus cape isnt covered with paints everywhere, just in the front, THE BACK ISNT, AND IT IS STILL FULLY INTACT... Scientifically speaking, a cactus cloth donot last over 40 yrs....

I don't know if you're just refusing to look, but in the photo I posted, you can see the outline on Mary's irises - something that can only be the product of a brush stroke, because it doesn't occur in nature.

When I debate, I donot deny any any arguments, Im not stupid like the atheists here. Whoever denies their own typing, falsely accuse anyone, is the loser of the argument. Whoever denies facts losses the argument...

In addition, the paint is so thick on her cheeks and forehead that it hides the "tooth" of the cloth it's painted on. Since a "brush stroke" is indicated by the presence of paint, there is more than enough evidence for "brush strokes", and your claim to the contrary is either invented or a misrepresentation.

Again, many many immitation of the paintings, even my church have its own. The validity of its story is VERY QUESTIONABLE, VERY UNLIKELY, AND VERY ILLOGICAL. AGAIN WHAT MAGAZINE WAS THIS PRINTED? THE LYING ATHEIST ARTICLE NEWSWEEK?

 

[MRC_Hans]

The miracle comes in the picture when the cloth last so long; about/over 500 yrs...(when over 100 yrs of its existence, no chemicals were discovered capable of restoring it, only lately...).

There is no defined lifetime of cloth. Organic cloth can be destroyed in weeks, or it can exist for centuries, even millienna. It all depends on the conditions. In Egypt, cotten cloth have been found that was 5,000 years old. It certainly does not take a miracle to preserve cloth for 500 years. Only reasonably dry and not too hot conditions.

I have a row of books on my shelf. They are 300 years old. Apart from inevitable wear, they are in perfect condition. Is this a miracle?

Hans

 

[Checkmite]

LOL, Vincent Vangough's painting are in high security because of its worth, but the Lady of Guadalupe isnt? Even before the 80's, the precious paintings which could cost for millions after millions are always in high security..

Your statement is a statement of a delusional man. And whos photograph is it? Besides, there are many many "copied" versions, Even we have our own painting here in our church, though not the original one (THE ONE THE POPE GAVE SCIENTISTS PERMISSION TO INVESTIGATE. This is in extreme security, as much as the "cup of the last supper"...), even the discovery channel stated that, just like the cup of the last supper (though this was much much older;'about 2000 yrs'.)

I really am extremely cautious with such publications, especially with the claim that it was investigated WITHOUT PERMISSION, how is that even possible? WAS THERE ONLY ONE SECURITY THERE? HIM? EVEN IN THE 60'S, VAN GOUGH'S PAINTINGS ARE IN HIGH SECURITY. besides, what magazine was it published? The atheists magazine? Or the "Super-Luck" magazine? Which one?

The magazine is called Proceso. You must register to use the website beyond the front page...and oh, you must also be able to read Spanish.

Maybe so, but the problem lies on the so-called INVESTIGATION WITHOUT PERMISSION, AND WITHOUT ANY OTHER SECURITY.... REMINDS ME OF THE "NATURE AS LUCK" DEBATE, PURELY ATHEISTIC CLAIM....Illogical, and unlikely....

Wait, before you said the problem lies with the longevity of the cloth. I already stated that you don't have to accept Rosales' findings; there is enough independently obtainable evidence.

Thank you for proving the miracles even the more.. By your statement, the only thing holding it together is the "PAINT".. But theres a problem, the cactus cape isnt covered with paints everywhere, just in the front, THE BACK ISNT, AND IT IS STILL FULLY INTACT... Scientifically speaking, a cactus cloth donot last over 40 yrs....

Indeed, the back is still intact - kept from deteriorating, because the fibers which would have fallen apart by now are still held together in front - by paint.

Before you said no paint or brush strokes had been used, now you say the only important thing is that the piece of cloth is still together. If that's true, and the integrity of the cloth is the only thing that matters, then there is no miracle. As I've (and others have) pointed out, cloth can survive for thousands of years, especially when steps are taken to preserve it. Even paper can survive so long.

When I debate, I donot deny any any arguments, Im not stupid like the atheists here. Whoever denies their own typing, falsely accuse anyone, is the loser of the argument. Whoever denies facts losses the argument...

You seem to have dismissed UnrepentantSinner's reference to an article from PSICOP, for no other reason than because it came from PSICOP.

Again, many many immitation of the paintings, even my church have its own. The validity of its story is VERY QUESTIONABLE, VERY UNLIKELY, AND VERY ILLOGICAL. AGAIN WHAT MAGAZINE WAS THIS PRINTED? THE LYING ATHEIST ARTICLE NEWSWEEK?

That's true, but the imitations are not painted on cactus cloth with a seam down the center.

In an effort to help clear up any misunderstandings, I've emailed the Director of Proceso magazine and asked him to clarify exactly how Rosales was able to conduct his research.

 

[PixyMisa]

And, while my debate skills may be mere rudament stubs compared with some of the posters here, I do have control of my CAPS LOCK key, and I don't type maniacal laughter.

 

[Ipecac]

Sheesh, MM. Is this the best you can do? I mean, really.

What a maroon.

 

[Akots]

I have a topical question... did my viewpoint about evolution end up making me an Apologist?

And if so, is it any better than what MM's doing?

 

[PixyMisa]

I have a topical question... did my viewpoint about evolution end up making me an Apologist?

I think you've been disqualified for asking questions.

And if so, is it any better than what MM's doing?

Uh... Yes. For one thing, you're not a raving loony.

 

[Agammamon]

I do have control of my CAPS LOCK key, and I don't type maniacal laughter.

You just did.

 

[Agammamon]

There is no defined lifetime of cloth. Organic cloth can be destroyed in weeks, or it can exist for centuries, even millienna. It all depends on the conditions. In Egypt, cotten cloth have been found that was 5,000 years old. It certainly does not take a miracle to preserve cloth for 500 years. Only reasonably dry and not too hot conditions.

I have a row of books on my shelf. They are 300 years old. Apart from inevitable wear, they are in perfect condition. Is this a miracle?

Hans

Egyptian mummies are wrapped in linen bandages soaked in various treatments and that certainly qualifies as cloth that has lasted over 100 years. You can still find examples of American flags flown in the Civil War and before; MRC_Hans is right, cloth can last for a long time depending upon the conditions.

 

[Ipecac]

and by the way, I got a bad news for you, as of now this thread is rated 4, later on it will be down to 1 or zero.. Why? Because I am about to debunk all of your silly arguments here. Now you only got 2 options, one is to put me on ignore, or deny reality and be delusional....

Sorry child, your atheist cult is about to perish, buh bye atheists philosophy........

Noooooooooo! Not the thread rating!! Please don't harm the thread rating!!!

D*mn you, Muscleman. You've gone too far this time!

 

[Akots]

Quick everyone; To the Skeptic-Cave!

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I have a topical question... did my viewpoint about evolution end up making me an Apologist?

And if so, is it any better than what MM's doing?

NO!!!!

As Pixie has already pointed out, your questioning immediately makes you better than Meatheadman and the fact that you ask questions instead of making pat assertions definately disqualifies you from apologist status.

Have you resolved the 2LOT issue with regard to evolution yet, or are there more questions that you have? I read your subsequent posts after my response, but felt your questions had been answered. If you want to tangent into abiogenesis I have two really great pages from Talk Origins that go into that subject.

Well, not the blather on, but the apologist says, "blah blah. But then confronted with contrarian evidence responds with "yeah, well blah blah is still true." Questioning is not in their nature.

.. at least as I have seen.

 

[muscleman]

There is no defined lifetime of cloth. Organic cloth can be destroyed in weeks, or it can exist for centuries, even millienna. It all depends on the conditions. In Egypt, cotten cloth have been found that was 5,000 years old. It certainly does not take a miracle to preserve cloth for 500 years. Only reasonably dry and not too hot conditions.

I have a row of books on my shelf. They are 300 years old. Apart from inevitable wear, they are in perfect condition. Is this a miracle?

Hans

I can tell a big difference between "COTTON" cloth, and "CACTUS" cloth. The fact is, i have clothes for many many years. There are suits in the salvation army, or somebody which are probably over 100 yrs, and can last longer..

Scientifically speaking (observation and study), "CACTUS" CLOTH (NOT cotton cloth) in which the indians at the time wear, breaks down in about 40 yrs the most, they crumble down, UNLIKE COTTONS which can last as you said, for thousands of years....

SHOW ME ANY CACTUS CLOTH IN THE UNIVERSE THAT IS STILL INTACT OTHER THAN THE CAPE OF LADY OF GUADALUPE?

OH DONT HAVE ANY OTHER ONE OUT THERE YOU CAN FIND? THATS WHAT I THOUGHT...

But if your not impressed with that, I can understand. But what about the fact that the scientific findings shows no brush strokes (AS IF IT WAS PLACED THERE SIMILAR TO A LASER PRINTER). AND NO SKETCHES BEHIND THE PAINT AS BEING SCANNED?

 

[muscleman]

The magazine is called Proceso. You must register to use the website beyond the front page...and oh, you must also be able to read Spanish.

LOL, when the shroud of Turin was proven "PART" fake (not cmpletely, some parts of it were just added later down in years.) THE WHOLE WORLD KNEW ABOUT IT, CHRISTIANS OR NOT...

AND NOW YOUR TELLING ME THAT THE LADY OF GUADALUPE WAS "MYSTERIOUSLY INVESTIGATED" "WITHOUT PERMISSION" BECAUSE THERE WAS NO OTHER BEING PRESENT BUT "THAT GUY" SO HE DID IT, AND IT WAS "PROVEN" FAKE "BY HIS OWN COMMENTS" WITHOUT ANY OTHER SCIENTISTS PRESENT, OR OTHER MEDIA "BUT HIS OWN CULT (BY THE WAY, THE WEBPAGE U SENT ME ARE ATHEISTS..).

IS THIS HOW YOU PRESENT AN ARGUMENT? I BELIEVE EVEN A 7 YRS OLD KID CAN SEE THROUGH HOW LAME THIS IS, A "MYSTERIOUS" INVESTIGATION, NOONE HAS HEARD OF....

DO U HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY DONT LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH? ALOT. THATS WHY WHEN A CERTAIN PRIEST MAKES MISTAKES, THE WHOLE WORLD WILL KNOW ABOUT IT, NOT JUST THE MEXICANS...

WHY THEN IS THIS "FINDINGS" NOT PRESENTED IN OUR MEDIA? LOL.....

Wait, before you said the problem lies with the longevity of the cloth. I already stated that you don't have to accept Rosales' findings; there is enough independently obtainable evidence.

THE ONLY REAL FINDINGS WILL TAKE PLACE WHEN REAL SCIENTISTS ARE PRESENT, THE MEDIA, THE CHURCH ARE PRESENT AT THE SAME TIME... NOT JUST THE ATHEISTS DOING THIER OWN THING "MYSTERIOUSLY" INVESTIGATING IT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS..

AGAIN, A KID CAN SEE THROUGH HOW FAKE THIS IS....

Indeed, the back is still intact - kept from deteriorating, because the fibers which would have fallen apart by now are still held together in front - by paint.

BY YOUR OWN STATEMENT, THE ONLY THING THAT HOLDS IT TOGETHER ARE THE "PAINTS".. IF THIS WAS THE CASE, THERE IS NO PAINT BEHIND IT, WHY THEN IS THE BACK STILL INTACT?

JUST BECAUSE A PAINT IS PAINTED ON ONE SIDE, SCIENTIFICALLY SPEAKING, IT DOESNT NECESSARILY MEAN IT "MYSTERIOUSLY" ALSO HOLDS THE PART NOT BEING PAINTED INTACT... REGARDLESS IF IT WAS CONNECTED OR NOT, IT COULD HAVE CRUMBLED DOWN, BUT IT DIDNT....

Before you said no paint or brush strokes had been used, now you say the only important thing is that the piece of cloth is still together. If that's true, and the integrity of the cloth is the only thing that matters, then there is no miracle. As I've (and others have) pointed out, cloth can survive for thousands of years, especially when steps are taken to preserve it. Even paper can survive so long.

WHAT?? Did I say that none of it were important?? I said that if your not impressed with one, take a closer look at the others, not that one isnt important... They are all important, because it shows that human beings cannot explain EVERYTHING, whether that title is called "science", "history", "religion", etc...

You seem to have dismissed UnrepentantSinner's reference to an article from PSICOP, for no other reason than because it came from PSICOP.

Dismissed? I hope your not falsely accusing me (as many of the cult members here love to do..)

Post it again so I will clearly check it, its possible that I missed it.. Again, I donot deny arguments, I accept it all, I am NOT like the cult members here.....

That's true, but the imitations are not painted on cactus cloth with a seam down the center.

In an effort to help clear up any misunderstandings, I've emailed the Director of Proceso magazine and asked him to clarify exactly how Rosales was able to conduct his research.

OH PLEASE THANK YOU FOR EMAILING HIM, THAT WAY I CAN SEND THAT TO THE ROME, VATICAN TO VERIFY ITS SO-CALLED "TRUTHFULL" "MYSTERIOUS", ATHEISTIC, BEHIND THE CLOSED DOORS INVESTIGATION.

 

[Checkmite]

BY YOUR OWN STATEMENT, THE ONLY THING THAT HOLDS IT TOGETHER ARE THE "PAINTS".. IF THIS WAS THE CASE, THERE IS NO PAINT BEHIND IT, WHY THEN IS THE BACK STILL INTACT?

JUST BECAUSE A PAINT IS PAINTED ON ONE SIDE, SCIENTIFICALLY SPEAKING, IT DOESNT NECESSARILY MEAN IT "MYSTERIOUSLY" ALSO HOLDS THE PART NOT BEING PAINTED INTACT... REGARDLESS IF IT WAS CONNECTED OR NOT, IT COULD HAVE CRUMBLED DOWN, BUT IT DIDNT....

OK. By the way, ancient Egyptian mummy-wrapping cloth was not painted. It still exists after thousands of years.

WHAT?? Did I say that none of it were important?? I said that if your not impressed with one, take a closer look at the others, not that one isnt important... They are all important, because it shows that human beings cannot explain EVERYTHING, whether that title is called "science", "history", "religion", etc...

Every time I come up with an answer to one of your "mysteries", you shift the focus of the argument. You say, "That's fine, but the problem is this..."

But you've run out of "problems". What remains that can't be explained? Cloth can exist for thousands of years under proper conditions. Pictures show that there is paint on the tilma. The artwork is substandard, even for the 16th century. What mysteries are left to explain?

Dismissed? I hope your not falsely accusing me (as many of the cult members here love to do..)

Post it again so I will clearly check it, its possible that I missed it.. Again, I donot deny arguments, I accept it all, I am NOT like the cult members here.....

I don't have to post it again, the message and link are still there. Go back a page and find it.

OH PLEASE THANK YOU FOR EMAILING HIM, THAT WAY I CAN SEND THAT TO THE ROME, VATICAN TO VERIFY ITS SO-CALLED "TRUTHFULL" "MYSTERIOUS", ATHEISTIC, BEHIND THE CLOSED DOORS INVESTIGATION.

See, you so willingly ridicule "atheists". Are you not aware that several Catholic people - including clergymen - have contested the "miraculous" properties of the tilma? Does that make them atheists, too?

I'd like to know how you concluded that Proceso is an "atheist" publication.

 

[PixyMisa]

I'd like to know how you concluded that Proceso is an "atheist" publication.

Well, it disagrees with his personal beliefs, so it must be atheistic, right?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I can tell a big difference between "COTTON" cloth, and "CACTUS" cloth. The fact is, i have clothes for many many years. There are suits in the salvation army, or somebody which are probably over 100 yrs, and can last longer..

Really? So what exactly is cactus cloth? Do you know at all?

Scientifically speaking (observation and study), "CACTUS" CLOTH (NOT cotton cloth) in which the indians at the time wear, breaks down in about 40 yrs the most, they crumble down, UNLIKE COTTONS which can last as you said, for thousands of years....

I assume you can point us to this scientific evidence. Evidence that this type of fabric has some automatic self-destruct mechanism that makes it perish after 40 years regardless of outside circumstances?

SHOW ME ANY CACTUS CLOTH IN THE UNIVERSE THAT IS STILL INTACT OTHER THAN THE CAPE OF LADY OF GUADALUPE?

OH DONT HAVE ANY OTHER ONE OUT THERE YOU CAN FIND? THATS WHAT I THOUGHT...

I dont have any idea what cactus cloth is, but I'm waiting for you to enlighten me.

But if your not impressed with that, I can understand. But what about the fact that the scientific findings shows no brush strokes (AS IF IT WAS PLACED THERE SIMILAR TO A LASER PRINTER). AND NO SKETCHES BEHIND THE PAINT AS BEING SCANNED?

No I'm not impressed with that. Soo, the painting HAS already (according to you) been subjected to a scientific investigation. Why dont you point us to the reports, then? Yes, there MUST be published reports, otherwise it is not a scientific investigation.

Hans

 

[muscleman]

Ill debunk your statements about Lady of Guadalupe fake, check this out...

I searched for the Rosales, and I found it.. Here is the link...
http://www.csicop.org/sb/2002-06/guadalupe.html

And I have also looked for the link on John Fischer, who made a comment that it was fake, not by his own observation (BECAUSE HE DIDNT OBSERVE IT, ROSALES DID 'MYSTERIOUSLY" AND "SECRETLY" INVESTIGATED IT IN 1982 BEHIND CLOSED DOORS TO BE PUBLISHED FOR THE SPANISH ONLY (let me guess, its also published in star magazine.. )...

http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=forensic+analyst+John+F.+Fischer+

From here, we can tell that he already is a real skeptic, and who does it for a living! Selling books for attention and money. Reminds me of Randi, who always finds explanation for things, and the famous one is (which by the way a 7 yrs old can say the same..) "IT IS JUST YOUR IMAGINATION...THEREFORE GOD DONT EXIST..."

Now lets compare it to the Theist point of view...

http://www.udayton.edu/mary/meditations/samaha7.html

And I also looked for the link on John Chiment, who was given the permission to observe and investigate the icon...

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=John+J.+Chiment&b=21&hc=0&hs=1&xargs=0


Now if you clicked on the links, YOU SHOULD SEE THE DIFFERENCE... WHILE ONE WORKS TO SELL BOOKS, MAKE MONEY BEING SKEPTIC, THE OTHER (JOHN CHIMENT) IS A REAL "SCIENTIST" WHO IS NEITHER RELIGIOUS, NOR ATHEISTIC...

I BELIEVE EVEN A KID CAN SEE THROUGH THIS SO-CALLED "SECRET" BEHIND THE CLOSED DOORS "MYSTERIOUS" INVESTIGATION BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONLY SECURITY FOR THE MOMENT. THEN THE GUY WHO MAKES A LIVING BEING SKEPTIC MAKES A COMMENT ABOUT IT AS IF "HE DID THE OBSERVATION HIMSELF" WHEN HE DIDNT (JOHN FISCHER)..

THEY ALSO DENY JUAN DIEGO'S EXISTENCE...EVEN JESUS EXISTENCE....

WHAT THE HECK??!! MILLIONS OF INDIANS WERE CONVERTED INTO CATHOLICISM AFTER THAT, TILL THIS DAY THATS VERY EVIDENT, ATHEISTS ARE DENYING THAT FACT?

HECK, WHY DONT YOU ATHEIST PROVE TO ME KING HENRY EXIST, I TOO CAN SAY "I DID A SECRET MYSTERIOUS, BEHIND THE CLOSED DOORS INVESTIGATION ON HIS TOMB, AND NOTICED THAT IT WAS SHAPED OF A BLACK MAN'S SKULL!!!" ...