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Ayn Rand ?

That's my big issue with her. She argues by assertion and doesn't show her work.
It's largely true. I agree with your critisicm.

I think Rand's importance is not as a philosopher who has rigidly set up arguments but who has in the spirit of Dostoevsky and Orwell (admittidly not philosophers) explored the human condition and the effects of society and government on the individual and the reverse. She's important, IMO, because she causes us to consider human nature in a different light than we perhaps have before. Namely that humans are capable of so much if left unfettered by government intervention and regulation. That humans create jobs and wealth and not government. That we are better off as a society to elevate the individual above that of an ant who is simply part of a larger society.
 
A is A is a tautology. It tells us nothing about A. From a tautology only tautologies can be logically inferred.

"Existence exists" is treated as an axiom, from which non-tautological truths are to be derived. I contend that the logic producing such conclusions is mere handwaving and assertion.
I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing. A tautology is A.) Use of redundant language that adds no information or B.) An assertion that is so obvious as to add nothing to a discussion.

I post this only because it was suggested that I have no good reasons for finding Ayn Rand quite lacking in philosophical rigor, a position that I think she is on record as agreeing to. (thus my jocular characterization of the two personalities above)
I agree as is evidenced in my above post.

(but we can discuss whether existence is a thing rather than an abstraction or universal attribute - if it exists it has a strange sort of existence)
Yes, and this is not a tautology. I think we just need to be careful of our wording. "Existence exists" tells us nothing.
 


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Fall out of love with Janeane? For this?!?
 
Since Ayn Rand never could even deal with Hume's destruction of her main tenet, and he wrote around 250 years before her, then Rand's lack of competent dealing there rather disqualifies her at the start.

In fact, the fallacies of special pleading, ad hoc, affirming the consequent
and so on so liberally scattered throughout her works is what disqualify it all from being considered serious philosophy.
 
I am a big fan of Ayn Rand, but that doesn't prevent me from criticizing her.

I think she was great as a philosopher, as long as you didn't ask her to elaborate, but sucked as a novelist. Her best works were short essays written for the newsletter, collected in The Virtue of Selfishness and other compilations.

I find her lengthy speaches, like the 5,693,509 page John Galt one, obscure to the point of MEGO. Somewhere in there is a poignant, two-sentence wrapup struggling to get out.

And I took issue with her "bow down to the nearest smokestack" quote, not to mention her vitrolic essay comparing the campers who came to watch the NASA rockets take off with Woodstock. To her, the RVers were celebrating technology but Woodstockers were just idiot potheads who consumed but did not contribute to society. A bit too simplistic for my taste.

That said, I think her anti-altruisic, pro-selfish concepts have considerable merit and are too often ignored when new legislation and taxation is up for consideration.
 
...Namely that humans are capable of so much if left unfettered by government intervention and regulation. That humans create jobs and wealth and not government. That we are better off as a society to elevate the individual above that of an ant who is simply part of a larger society.

That was always my problem with her, she comes across to me as thinking that humans are more naturally altruistic than selfish.

Unfortunately history shows time and again when humans are left unfettered by government intervention and regulation they tend towards trying to get away with whatever they can to maximize their own personal situation usually at the expense of others.

Examples: Food inspection, pollution, drug safety, workplace standards.

If left to themselves corporations would not have voluntarily adopted such standards and the great mass of humanity would be worse off for it.
 
RandFan = Fan of Ayn Rand.

Did not get that until this thread.

Had not heard of Ayn Rand until this thread...

Looks like she has some fans.
 
Doesn't she argue that selfishness is good until it hurts other people?

s/until/even though/

or sometimes

s/until it hurts/because it doesn't really hurt/

Actually, the whole dependent clause can go. "Selfishness is good." Period. If it hurts other people, that's their concern, not yours.
 
s/until/even though/

or sometimes

s/until it hurts/because it doesn't really hurt/

Actually, the whole dependent clause can go. "Selfishness is good." Period. If it hurts other people, that's their concern, not yours.
My understanding of it that hurting other people contradicts her own philiosophy.
 
My understanding of it that hurting other people contradicts her own philiosophy.

Yes, effectively, with some gray area.

The problem with Rand's philosophizing is that she tended to use a lot of idiosyncratic language. Although she did usually define her terms, her definitions were generally lost in the somewhat excessive and convoluted verbiage of her essays and novels. What she termed the "virtue of selfishness" is probably better described as "enlightened self-interest", doing what is in one's own long-term best interests, regardless of the desires or fears of the moment.
 
I find mutual altruism in my self-interest: we scratch each other's backs. If I get pleasure out helping someone else, that is fine ,but the point is to help the other person for her sake .Government is society's way of our being mutually altruistic in social services.:) Any other Randian logical flaws?
 
I find mutual altruism in my self-interest: we scratch each other's backs. If I get pleasure out helping someone else, that is fine ,but the point is to help the other person for her sake .Government is society's way of our being mutually altruistic in social services.:) Any other Randian logical flaws?

Mutual altruism is something of an oxymoron. Enlightened self-interest can mandate that one assist another person for a number of reasons, in exchange for a future return, as an investment in a person who may make a valuable contribution to one's own benefit, or to encourage an environment where one may receive such assistance at a future time if needed. Some examples may be a business donating to a school, which would help ensure a supply of well-educated potential employees, or to boost a local market (by increasing potential income for the region through education and training), or to increase the businesses good PR and therefore brand marketability, or simply to receive a signifcant tax write-off. This is apparently altruistic on it's surface, but at base it is actually enlightened self-interest motivating the action.

There is no such thing as government altruism. This is one of those areas where Rand's idiosyncratic language causes problems. Altruism is the voluntary rendering of material or non-material assistance to another without expectation of profit or reciprocation. When you include government force in that, it ceases to be voluntary, and therefore truly altruistic. It is the use of threat of violence to compel others to contribute to a collectivist conception of support and assistance. It is motivated in most cases by what appears to be enlightened self-interest; but is at base simply fear or laziness. Fear that one will not have a "safety net" should one fail to adequately support one's self, or laziness in not wanting to work too hard to support one's self when on can rely on someone else's support and assistance.

The problem with Rand's exposition of her theories is that she used one word, altruism, for two completely different circumstances. One, that of forced, collectivist contribution to a supposedly universal safety-net support system; with the tacit assumption that those receiving said support had a right to it simply for the fact of their existence, and their demands by nature took precedence over the desires of those who actually produced the means of support. This is primarily what Rand was fulminating against.

However, she also uses the term to refer to a different sort of altruism, that which is truly voluntary and free; but which was motivated, not by any sense of fellow-feeling, but by the same priority of demand by the supported/consumer over the desire of the supporter/consumer, which resulted in an abnegation of self. This is, I think, where she went wrong, since she mistakenly equates the two, when they are clearly two completely different phenomena. She also denies the existence of true altruism, or even the appearence of such as enlightened self-interest; instead believing that all altruism was false, and either of the first kind or the second.

This latter is also where her primary objection to, and rejection of, relgion originates; seeing it as simply another form of forced collectivism, using emotional blackmail instead of outright force, to achieve it's goal.

But in both cases, it's the putting the value and primacy of the group over that of the individual, and the non-productive consumer over the producer, that forms the basis of her objections to both.

The biggest objection that I can see is not her opposition to government-mandated charity, which I tend to agree with; but her denial of the validity of private and personal charity as well. It is in the case of those who are disabled and unable to achieve full self-sufficiency where the flaw in her philosophy shows itself most prominently. She draws no line between those who are still able to produce and contribute to their own support, albeit in a limited manner, but instead choose not to, and demand that others bear the entire burden of their support; and those who are disabled and unable to support themselves to any substantial degree, and would not survive without outside assistance.
 
I remain the same. Yes, she was so wrong on those points. I find that with government doing the charity work, force is justified as our social compact requires it and democratically done without violating our rights . So,here is the nub of our disagreement . You equate all force as the same . . Private charity is not enough! Does anyone differ from her on epistemology or metaphysics?
 
Have her writings helped others here to come to be rationalists and atheists ?

Being raised in a home (until I was 9, that is) where religious beliefs were rarely demonstrated or reinforced, I was fortunate enough to never have any deep-seated belief of that nature to overcome.

When I was a child, my belief in Santa Claus was much greater that my belief in God. When I found out the truth about Santa Claus, thie idea of God was grandfathered into my internal philosophical wastebasket along with him with no aplomb.

As it happens, I had the correct idea: no God.

Personally, I have not read a great deal of Ayn Rand. I tend to like and agree with what little of her I have read, but I think her need for absolute certainty dooms the workability of her philosophy of objectivism. At least for me.

-Squish
 

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