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Ask An Objectivist

:rolleyes:

The obvious answer to your question is "Life entails risk." Sometimes, that means bad things happen to you and you have to deal with the fallout. Objectivism is not a philosophy for people who want to be taken care of--it's a philosophy for people willing to stand on their own. And that means accepting that sometimes, something bad happens and there's no way to repay you the damages.


That is indeed the obvious answer. I wanted to see you state it outright, though, because it's an unbelievably poor answer.

Of course risk (like pollution and resource depletion) is an inevitable aspect of life. But also like those things, it is not a constant in terms of degree. Without regulation, other people's profitable activities can force you to share excessive amounts of the risk they generate, without sharing in the profits. In other words, risk is yet another externality that no Objectivist social order that's ever been described to me has any effective way to deal with. The person causing the risk might (or might not) also be sharing it themselves, but others (the other businesses on the block that gets burned down, in my previous example; or the people living in the town downstream from a crappy dam inadequately maintained by a private wealthy club on its own land) are forced to share it without their consent.

So, I appreciate this clarification of the compensation you'd offer the families of the people downstream who, when the dam breaks, end up trapped and injured in a gigantic pile of wood wreckage that piles up against a bridge with no means of rescue, and then slowly and inevitably burn to death when the pile catches fire. "Stand on your own. Sometimes, bad things happen." (See: Johnstown Flood, 1889, right around the heyday of laissez-faire capitalism.) At least as they mourned, they could be comforted that the rights of the elite to operate their country club as they saw fit, without the burden of government regulation or oversight, had been held properly sacred. Not like today, where red tape has made building an unreliable dam that can decimate a city nearly impossible, even on your own land! Such slaves we've become.

Furthermore, post-hoc alterations of the original question are unjustifiable. The Objectivist sraw-man in your post successfully answered your first question. The fact that you kept looking for ways around it shows a certain lack of good faith in your argument tactic. And while you may not see it that way, you've got to understand that most Objectivists have extensive experience with people using exactly that method to do exactly that. It's akin to a religious believer coming here: we've seen it all, and we make assumptions about their intentions based on what we see them doing because people in the past that used those tactics has specific intentions. After the 500th time you see "Okay, but what if X?" taken to the nth degree in a transparent attempt to create a situation the Objectivist can't answer, you get gun shy about such conversations.


What nonsense. When I alter my original question it's to show that the answer given is inadequate to cover the actual scope of the question.

"What do we do if the ship catches fire?"
"If it's raining heavily, that might put it out."
"What if it's not raining?"
"Hey! No fair! That's a post hoc alteration of your original question!"

The ultimate reason why follow-up questions to insufficient answers introduce elements like unfortunate circumstances, uncooperative people, crimes, wars, shortages, exploiters, accidents, and disasters is this: if you don't need to account for those things, then just about any social system will work. I'm tired of hearing from Objectivists how wonderfully their system could work in ideal situations where the only risk to life and limb is deliberate physical assault by criminals or the government. Big deal. That's not hard. It's being able to resolve the problems introduced by market manipulators, exploiters, polluters, bigots, sociopaths, and every flawed human right down to ordinary distracted drivers that makes a social system necessary and useful.

No wonder you're sick of questions on those areas.

"Come marvel at how well this concept car performs, on straight smooth roads downhill in daylight with no traffic."
"How do you make it turn?"
"See, that's the kind of aggression that makes it impossible to talk to you people!"

Excessive risk as an externality is not a difficult concept. Any time an unregulated poorly-maintained dam looms upstream from a town, that represents an embarrassing failure of the social order in which it occurred. If it occurred under state communism, we'd blame poor coordination between central planners. If it occurred under a present-day Western government, we'd blame legal loopholes or corrupt zoning officials. If it occurred in a feudal system, we'd blame the foolishness of the baron who granted the dam builder permission to use the baron's land (it's all the baron's land) that way.

But in an Objectivist system, we'd blame no one, because there's no problem! Let the townspeople stand on their own and take some risk (for no benefit to themselves). Until the thing actually breaks, they have no cause for complaint. After all, the country club is taking a risk too. They might get sued later.

Or, if they don't like it, maybe the townspeople can get together and voluntarily raise funds to pay the country club to drain and remove the dam.

Just don't dare to ask, "what if maybe they can't?" Objectivists are so tired of hearing that!
 
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Let me give another example of playing this kind of philosophy. In the broad sense of lifeboat ethics and other irritating examples, here is one:
An Objectivist and I are together. The Objectivist gets a heart attack or something similar to the effect, that she/he can't call for/get help her/himself and could die if no help arrives. I leave as that is not my problem.
 
Let me give another example of playing this kind of philosophy. In the broad sense of lifeboat ethics and other irritating examples, here is one:
An Objectivist and I are together. The Objectivist gets a heart attack or something similar to the effect, that she/he can't call for/get help her/himself and could die if no help arrives. I leave as that is not my problem.


In the US, in most states and under most circumstances, present day, you can legally do that. In many other countries, it's illegal. (The legal concept is "duty to rescue.")

As I understand it, there is nothing in Objectivism that would speak against you helping the other person. Just that you are not under any obligation to, and should not be penalized if you don't.

Two issues arise here. First, while it's clear enough regarding legal penalties, does that extend to social penalties? Are the heart attack victim's kids and relatives acting against Objectivist ideals if they subsequently light up the social networks about what an ******* you were, and urging everyone to boycott your business, refuse your custom, downvote your ratings, avoid your shadow on the street, and use their inviolable freedom of speech to hate-spam your email addresses?

The second is, your example illustrates a problem that comes up in these discussions: there's a difference between acting in a way consistent with Objectivist ideals, and acting in a way that maximally demonstrates the differences between Objectivist ideals and present-day social principles or some other social order. If one is doing the latter, then walking away from the heart attack victim goes from permissible to necessary. Rand's characters do that a lot, which I think tends to make Objectivism look more objectionable than it might actually be. Rand herself did it too, sometimes, such as lauding a thrill killer; but not always.

Hence the arguments over whether Rand was hypocritical. Accepting government benefits might not, in the abstract, be against Objectivist ideals, but then again, she didn't write any novels about heroes who accepted government benefits on their way to achievement and prosperity.
 
Let me give another example of playing this kind of philosophy. In the broad sense of lifeboat ethics and other irritating examples, here is one:
An Objectivist and I are together. The Objectivist gets a heart attack or something similar to the effect, that she/he can't call for/get help her/himself and could die if no help arrives. I leave as that is not my problem.

Objectivism doesn't prevent you from calling for help. You are free to do so if you like. What is says is that you should not be compelled by outside forces to act. There is plenty of room for some kind of altruism in Objectivism, so long as it is self-willed.

In some ways, this seems like having your cake and eating it too. Which is why I don't think much of Objectivism as philosophy. If I behave just as I did before, of what use is it? A philosophy which doesn't calculate anything new isn't interesting. As far as I can tell, as soon as we get into pragmatic nuts and bolts, Objectivism yields. It backs-off and, in a kind of sophistry, says, "Well, if that's what you want to do, that's fine then."

It wants to say, "Here are some results of living rationally," but then gives no further guidance for what "rationally" might actually mean in specific cases. For me, "rationally" might produce the opposite behavior than it does in someone else. For an example, consider the Prisoners Dilemma and how "rational" depends on perspective - as it does, in some degree or other, in all our decisions.
 
Two issues arise here. First, while it's clear enough regarding legal penalties, does that extend to social penalties? Are the heart attack victim's kids and relatives acting against Objectivist ideals if they subsequently light up the social networks about what an ******* you were, and urging everyone to boycott your business, refuse your custom, downvote your ratings, avoid your shadow on the street, and use their inviolable freedom of speech to hate-spam your email addresses?

While it suffers from the same "typical behavior vs illustrative extreme" dilemma you go on to illustrate, much of the behavior condemned in Atlas Shrugged was purely social. For example, Rearden's family of moochers were clearly cast in a poor light, but they had no legal claim to their parasitism.

If we assume this meant to be representative of how social interactions should be change in Objectivism, then social actions to enforce behaviors for which there is no legal enforcement should themselves be immoral. In other words, just as it is wrong to take the resources of another when it is not in that other's interests, it is wrong to demand it of him.
 
Let me give another example of playing this kind of philosophy. In the broad sense of lifeboat ethics and other irritating examples, here is one:
An Objectivist and I are together. The Objectivist gets a heart attack or something similar to the effect, that she/he can't call for/get help her/himself and could die if no help arrives. I leave as that is not my problem.


My Objective is for me to survive so I'll keep him alive til I need him 'cause fresh meat tastes better.
 
How would broadcasting work? How about cellphones?

What is to stop a company building a network of masts that not only supplies its network, but also jams other networks? What is to stop an individual landowner doing the same?
 
How would broadcasting work? How about cellphones?

What is to stop a company building a network of masts that not only supplies its network, but also jams other networks? What is to stop an individual landowner doing the same?

Ah. The Tragedy_of_the_CommonsWP.

You will give me a call when the human race has figured this out. Please.

:th:
 
Ah. The Tragedy_of_the_CommonsWP.

You will give me a call when the human race has figured this out. Please.

:th:

But, unlike other examples (fisheries being the poster case), radio broadcasts and cellular communications do work in OECD countries (at least) with the current legislation and licensing systems.

The tragedy of the commons is no more than a fatal flaw in objectivism, though.
 
But, unlike other examples (fisheries being the poster case), radio broadcasts and cellular communications do work in OECD countries (at least) with the current legislation and licensing systems.

The tragedy of the commons is no more than a fatal flaw in objectivism, though.

Oh. I know what the solution is -- you co-operate -- you give up some of your "rights" to an entity called a "government" which, in turn, imposes (forcefully if necessary) restrictions on you for the benefit of all.

Not all people concur, however. :sulk:
 
Oh. I know what the solution is -- you co-operate -- you give up some of your "rights" to an entity called a "government" which, in turn, imposes (forcefully if necessary) restrictions on you for the benefit of all.

Not all people concur, however. :sulk:

In Atlas Shrugged government only hobbles the Captains of Industry. Government robs the True Heroes of Humanity of their rightful earnings and gives them to the unworthy masses who only exist to suck the life out of their Rightful Masters.
 
Question for you: How do you ensure people act rationally?

Why would you even bother to try? Objectivism seems to be entirely a matter of personal choice, not social prescription. The Objectivist's goal seems to be pursuit of their own rational action. How other people act is their own business, to be dealt with only when necessary. This seems to be entirely different from the "collectivist" view, which is all about ensuring other people act rationally.
 
Why would you even bother to try? Objectivism seems to be entirely a matter of personal choice, not social prescription. The Objectivist's goal seems to be pursuit of their own rational action. How other people act is their own business, to be dealt with only when necessary. This seems to be entirely different from the "collectivist" view, which is all about ensuring other people act rationally.

People frequently act irrationally so it would have to be dealt with quite often not just occasionally.
 
Why would you even bother to try? Objectivism seems to be entirely a matter of personal choice, not social prescription. The Objectivist's goal seems to be pursuit of their own rational action. How other people act is their own business, to be dealt with only when necessary. This seems to be entirely different from the "collectivist" view, which is all about ensuring other people act rationally.

It seems according to what Dinwar has posted that people acting rationally is a fundamental principle of objectivism and that an objectivist society can only work if people act rationally.
 
It seems according to what Dinwar has posted that people acting rationally is a fundamental principle of objectivism and that an objectivist society can only work if people act rationally.

Isn't there also a subtext which asserts rationality leads to better outcomes?

I used to think that must be so, but I don't anymore. I think there's even evidence from game theory that acting crazy (or even just committing to random actions) can bestow an advantage, since your opponent is then unable to predict your "play."

Perhaps Objectivism is shackled in the same way that economics was with the "rational actor" model. Very useful for modeling economic theories, but not so good at modeling what real humans do.
 

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