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Artificial Intelligence

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel

The rest of the quote seems a little dated tho as there are many expert systems and autonomous agents in use.
Yes, that occurred to me as well (assuming you were referring to the rest of what I quoted). Upon reflection though, I think it still applies.

While genetic algorithms (for example) can be a very efficient means of optimization, they still operate only within very narrow constraints. Such a program might become very good at (say) face recognition -- much better than anything a human would come up with in a reasonable length of time by hand-coding -- but it isn't going to spontaneously decide to start analyzing stock market trends, even if it has access to the pertinent data.

One reason for that has to do with granularity; you might have a large number of ways to approach a problem, and each approach can be further broken down into chunks. These chunks can be tossed around, traded around randomly between members of a population to explore huge combinatorial possibilities, but you reach a point where you can't permit flexibility in the details that comprise a chunk without running a risk of reducing the whole assembly to complete junk that doesn't do anything.

This, in turn, has a lot to do with the rigidity of the machinery on which the whole process takes place; below a minimal point of adherence to form, there arises a risk that the machine will crash, bringing the entire process to an abrupt halt. The process of evolution that produced (that property which must not be named) in the human brain is not so constrained; even the most malformed mutant will not cause the whole environment to lock up.

Even if this problem is solved, the most flexible learning program will still not venture outside the bounds defined for it by its designer, because it wouldn't have any reason to. In fact, to do so would almost certainly violate the parameters defined for the program by its designer -- part of that process being a method of evaluating the program's success in terms explicitly defined by the programmer. Attempting to overcome this by including rewards for violating the parameters as being within the acceptable parameters amounts to nothing more than an expansion of the rigid, explicitly defined bounds.

It seems to me that truly flexible, creative self-modifying programs would require full access to design space, and an implicit, rather than explicit selective mechanism -- the problems they face should somehow be natural consequences of their interaction with their environment, rather than contrived constraints we try to import from the much different world in which we live.

The undefineable property of the human brain which we refer to by the dubious term 'intelligence' (or at least some of its components) lay along a design path which was taken by only one among all the species on earth. Even if such an artificial whatever had full access to a similarly rich design space, there is no particular reason to expect it to exhibit a preference for a path that would lead to a corresponding unnameable artifical property.
 
I think thats a good take on the idea , well put , but....

"Even if this problem is solved, the most flexible learning program will still not venture outside the bounds defined for it by its designer..."

Are we not subject to the same constraints? I mean we can't see in the infrared and will never be able to unless there is an outside design change. A five foot mathmatical genius will never be a Michal Jorden, and I have my doubts about Michal being able to understand Hawking.

We stand in awe of the potential of the human brain and yet we sometimes make the mistake of thinking that it's potential is infinate , sadly it is not, it's mushy, it's state dependant, it makes wild leaps of logic but also stupid facallicys of judgment. It's the best we have and a hell of a model.

I would say more but my wife is pulling on my ear and if my intuition is correct , she has a specific task in mind =)
 
Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel

Are we not subject to the same constraints? I mean we can't see in the infrared and will never be able to unless there is an outside design change. A five foot mathmatical genius will never be a Michal Jorden, and I have my doubts about Michal being able to understand Hawking.
As biological organisms, we are subject to constraints, but (though some might argue it) they are not constraints which have been artificially imposed on us as an expression of intent on the part of a designer -- for us, there is no such thing as an 'outside design change'. The only constraints are those inposed by mutation (which says: "try something different), and selection (which says: "if it works, keep it).

As your examples illustrate, one of the principle constraints comes as a result of the earlier 'choices' of paths through design space; optimizing of any feature always comes at some cost in potential functionality of some other feature or features -- I don't see any conflict between height and mathematical ability, but you could say that the better one was suited to being a pro football player, the more difficulty he would have establishing a career as a jockey (and the better he was doing as a football player, the less advantage there would be in making such a change in the first place). Nifty alternatives may exist somewhere in design space, but they may be considered unreachable if "no" is the answer to the question: "can you get there from here without backing up?" (of course in all this, it is understood that we are really talking about changes over large numbers of generations).
We stand in awe of the potential of the human brain and yet we sometimes make the mistake of thinking that it's potential is infinite...
That's an interesting observation.

Let's say (though some might argue it) that the design space available to the human brain is not infinite; and that there are some tasks which are beyond the capabilities of the brain, given its current design. There must be many things that are possible (or that actually exist), yet that cannot be grasped by the human mind. A bit of a puzzle is whether there are things that are conceivable, yet that cannot be conceived by the human mind (since 'by the human mind' is tacitly assumed by the term 'conceivable' -- I guess). I suppose that's merely a semantic distinction, and that 'concept space' is a superset of 'conceivable by the human mind'.

Many words in our language reflect the fact that we are highly visually oriented; this has considerable influence on the way we concieve things -- we visualize them, and have much greater difficulty handling a concept that does not lend itself well to some form of internal translation into the neural correlates of vision (we can't picture it, we can't see it, we can't imagine it).

If we create (or put into motion a process which results in the emergence of) silicon-based cognitive entities, perhaps they won't be limited in this way -- they will undoubtedly be limited in some way, but even if it's just different, rather than necessarily 'better', this will still expand the explorable areas of 'concept space' -- but how we could benefit from this is not so clear!

*Sigh* maybe Suggestologist is right; maybe what we should really focus on is more reliable traffic light controllers, payroll programs, stuff like that.
 
Dymanic said:

*Sigh* maybe Suggestologist is right; maybe what we should really focus on is more reliable traffic light controllers, payroll programs, stuff like that.

The focus doesn't have to be mundane, but it should be concrete.
 
Dymanic said:
Originally posted by Yahweh

(I'm a little skeptical of the following use of reasoning...)

If the human brain works in a way where everything (even consciousness) is expainable by natural phenomena and matter...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That consciousness is dependent on natural phenomena and matter can be easily demonstrated with a baseball bat. Explainable is something else again.

Ontologically dependent? If so then how does a baseball bat demonstrate this? I don't understand.
 
Originally posted by Interesting Ian

Ontologically dependent?
Phenomenologically dependant.

But you have already identified me as a materialist; hence, as any flow of useful information would be entirely one-directional, I wouldn't ask you to waste your valuable time debating that with me -- I can continue to be the beneficiary of your insights by continued perusal of other threads.

I am curious about what you think of what I referred to as 'concept space' above (sometimes called 'idea space'). I'm trying to decide whether idea space would have to have a separate dimension for every different type (or hypothetical type) of cognitive entity (I mean, if a bat is capable of having something that deserves to be called an 'idea' -- but a bat idea; something a human is not capable of -- is this something we should consider a legitimate member of idea space, or does it exist in a separate idea space?) (Note that in what I'm calling idea space, a thing doesn't have to be possible in the physical world, just conceivable; a bat might not even be capable of conceiving of something not possible.)

I have serious doubts about whether this is even worthy of much attention. Any thoughts on that?
 
Dymanic said:

Phenomenologically dependant.



Huh? Allow me to put it another way. Are you saying that being bashed on the head by a baseball bat vindicates the hypothesis that the brain is identical to, or generates consciousness? If so what reasons and/or evidence do you have for this hypothesis?
 
Interesting Ian said:


Huh? Allow me to put it another way. Are you saying that being bashed on the head by a baseball bat vindicates the hypothesis that the brain is identical to, or generates consciousness? If so what reasons and/or evidence do you have for this hypothesis?
This hypothesis can be explored via the scientific method.

1. Identify the problem
How is the brain and consciouness related?

2. Form a hypothesis
The brain is responsible for consciousness.

2 a. Is the Hypothesis falsifyable?
If yes, continue to 3.
If no, revise hypothesis.

Yes, the hypothesis I formed is falsifyable. So I'll continue to 3.

3. Deductive Reasoning
If the brain is injured, it wont be able to maintain consciousness. A baseball bat could injure the brain.

4. Testing and Data Analyzation
If I take 200 people and randomly assign them to either the control or the test group without their knowledge, we begin the first phase of creating a double blind procedure.

For the statistical 100 people in the test group, I'll ask them to close their eyes (blind... hee hee hee I'm a funny guy), then I'll smack them in the head with a baseball bat. If I've properly given them a concussion, 100 people will go unconscious.

I compare the test group to the control group. All 100 people from the control group maintained consciousness, all 100 people from the test group are unconscious. Now, there may be a few anomalies such as "paralyzation" in the test group, but with another test we can show those anomalies are purely coincidenal.

5. Conclusion
The brain generates consciousness.

(Source of Scientific Method from http://www.selu.edu/Academics/Education/EDF600/Mod3/sld001.htm)

The brain generates consciousness.
Hit the head with baseball bat causes concussion.
Concussion hurt brain.
Concussion = Unconsciouness
 
Originally posted by Interesting Ian

Are you saying that being bashed on the head by a baseball bat vindicates the hypothesis that the brain is identical to, or generates consciousness? If so what reasons and/or evidence do you have for this hypothesis?
Or, sure, what the heck. If you really want to talk about that, I'm down. I just don't get why you keep debating this with materialists on thread after thread, you getting so little out of it and all.

Yeah, I'm saying that consciousness is generated by the brain. Obviously, I can't offer any evidence that it ceases to exist following a good whack with a baseball bat, (I've actually heard it suggested that it just goes somewhere else) but that is the only place we have so far been able to find any evidence for it. So if we want to study it, that's the place to look.

Except we need to back up a couple of steps here, because we haven't actually found evidence (beyond what must be considered circumstantial) that any such thing exists at all; therefore (as we determined earlier in this thread) the mere use of terms like 'intelligence' and 'consciousness' is fraught with peril. Of course, if you believe that it is consciousness that creates the universe, then I suppose you could use that as proof that consciousness exists (but of course, you'd first have to prove that the universe exists).

I'd feel confident in saying that the brain does some interesting things until you bash it with a bat, and then it quits doing them. That's not a very big piece of ground, but at least seems reasonably safe to stand on.
 
Yahweh said:
This hypothesis can be explored via the scientific method.

1. Identify the problem
How is the brain and consciouness related?

2. Form a hypothesis
The brain is responsible for consciousness.

2 a. Is the Hypothesis falsifyable?
If yes, continue to 3.

No hypothesis is falsifiable as I explained to you earlier on. We can accumulate evidence against the hypothesis such as evidence for survival. Alternatively one could attempt to assess the overall intelligibility of this hypothesis.

If no, revise hypothesis.

Why since no hypotheses are falsifiable anyway?

Yes, the hypothesis I formed is falsifyable. So I'll continue to 3.

3. Deductive Reasoning
If the brain is injured, it wont be able to maintain consciousness. A baseball bat could injure the brain.

yup

4. Testing and Data Analyzation
If I take 200 people and randomly assign them to either the control or the test group without their knowledge, we begin the first phase of creating a double blind procedure.

For the statistical 100 people in the test group, I'll ask them to close their eyes (blind... hee hee hee I'm a funny guy), then I'll smack them in the head with a baseball bat. If I've properly given them a concussion, 100 people will go unconscious.

I compare the test group to the control group. All 100 people from the control group maintained consciousness, all 100 people from the test group are unconscious. Now, there may be a few anomalies such as "paralyzation" in the test group, but with another test we can show those anomalies are purely coincidenal.

5. Conclusion
The brain generates consciousness.

But how does one derive this conclusion?? :confused: Where is your actual argument?? :eek:

Heard of the transmission hypothesis?
 
Interesting Ian said:
No hypothesis is falsifiable as I explained to you earlier on. We can accumulate evidence against the hypothesis such as evidence for survival. Alternatively one could attempt to assess the overall intelligibility of this hypothesis.
Assess the overall intelligibility of a hypothesis... uh, my understanding of science leads me to believe that all hypotheses are just as valid as another.

Why since no hypotheses are falsifiable anyway?
From What can we prove, Stimpy said:
In many cases, like your moon example, that confidence level is so close to 100% that it almost becomes meaningless to say that it is not 100%. But technically speaking, it is less than 100%. In fact, our confidence in any conclusion about the world that we draw from our observations, is necessarily less than our confidence in the scientific method itself. And that confidence is always slightly less than 100%, because we can never formally prove that the assumptions of science are true.

But how does one derive this conclusion?? :confused: Where is your actual argument?? :eek:
The arguement/assumption was the fact that certain events (a concussion via heavy baseball bat) can alter consciousness.

Heard of the transmission hypothesis?
Michael Grosso isnt taken too seriously outside the world of parapsychology because he describes phenomena (the psi effect for example) in magical ways while ignoring some of the completely unremarkable and explainable effects of meditation. His mistake is turning the ordinary into the extraordinary.
 
Here's an example of a falsifyable hypothesis:

If I throw a ball up in the air, at 5 meters per second, it will escape the pull of the earth thus whirling about all through space.

Millions and millions of tests of this hypothesis can be repeated, and every time the ball will not leave the earth. Why? Because the escape velocity of the earth is 11100 m/s.

Logically you dont need to perform the experiments, you can assume throwing the ball up at 5 m/s will never allow the ball to escape the pull of earth because 5 m/s is about 11095 m/s short of the minimum requirement to escape the pull of earth.

See http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae158.cfm for a tutorial on escape velocity.

Heres an example of a non-falsifyable hypothesis:
There are some forces that exist in nature that science has not discovered yet.

Do you see the difference?
 
"As biological organisms, we are subject to constraints, but (though some might argue it) they are not constraints which have been artificially imposed on us as an expression of intent on the part of a designer....."
You know I'm not sure the distinction matters because ultimately the functionality of the construct wether organic or silicone, is the bottom line. The question of the designer ( at least for the biological organism) holds a whole distinct dimension of problems of belief and presuppositions. So I prefer not to venture there , rather take the finished product on it own merits. The contrast of difference in biological organisms, was what my post 2 scotch, clownish statement was attempting to show. There is no standardization of product , so we are unable to mount studies that can account for a higher rule set rather then a generalized trend of behaviors. That there exists a gulf between individuals of the same parentage, even twins is a given . Some interesting expressions of similarity's between identical twins ( altho anecdotal in nature) about equvelentcys of perceptions and view of events and things more suited to a Randi challange then an text on nurology, seem to show that there is more to mechanical construction and the nurture aspect on the human organism then is topically evedent.

"... say (though some might argue it) that the design space available to the human brain is not infinite; and that there are some tasks which are beyond the capabilities of the brain, given its current design. There must be many things that are possible (or that actually exist), yet that cannot be grasped by the human mind. A bit of a puzzle is whether there are things that are conceivable, yet that cannot be conceived by the human mind (since 'by the human mind' is tacitly assumed by the term 'conceivable' -- I guess). I suppose that's merely a semantic distinction, and that 'concept space' is a superset of 'conceivable by the human mind'"

No! You are absoulutly correct ( in my thinking). This is what I tried to allude to in the quote from Matrix...That there are self-limitations in the brain just like any other construct is a given and if the exersize of interperatation dosen't work does that mean the the concept ( or reality) of the thing we try to examine is Non-viable? Because we cannot see in the infrared does that exclude it's existance ( no of course not, thats a function of the eyes), but the thing in us gives rise to our ability to ask deep questions about origin or the mechinacial construction of the brain itself guarentee that just because we have the depth to ask such questions we will understand an answer or even ask the right questions? I'm afraid it does not. That can be seen in everyday life where some people even tho that can perform on a funcitional level , there is no way that you can teach them calculas or some even basic math, wether that is a fault of the physical machine or the programming is an old debate. My view is they are NOT mutually exclusive.

That we are visually oriented can pretty much be confirmed by not just expermental evidence but the fact that the evoloutinary succesful model of the hunter is a bi or qudra-pedal animal where it has a steroscopic pair of eyes at the hightest point on its frame.

"If we create (or put into motion a process which results in the emergence of) silicon-based cognitive entities, "perhaps they won't be limited in this way -- they will undoubtedly be limited in some way, but even if it's just different, rather than necessarily 'better', this will still expand the explorable areas of 'concept space' -- but how we could benefit from this is not so clear!"
I still maintain that this is not possible until we understand the fundimental nature of the object we try to derive those rules and operating parameters from, the human brain.

"*Sigh* maybe Suggestologist is right; maybe what we should really focus on is more reliable traffic light controllers, payroll programs, stuff like that"

Like Carl Sagan's father figure said in the movie contact : " baby steps, Sparks , baby steps"
 
Yahweh said:

Assess the overall intelligibility of a hypothesis... uh, my understanding of science leads me to believe that all hypotheses are just as valid as another.



WE're talking about metaphysical hypotheses. How do you expect your understanding of science to help? No not all metaphysical hypotheses are equally valid.


I have absolutely no interest what that clueless ar*ehole says.

The arguement/assumption was the fact that certain events (a concussion via heavy baseball bat) can alter consciousness.

No it wasn't. You are supposed to be arguing that consciousness is generated by the brain.

Michael Grosso isnt taken too seriously outside the world of parapsychology

Name some people together with their reasons why they do not take him seriously.

because he describes phenomena (the psi effect for example) in magical ways

What is a magical way? Anything which is inconsistent with your dumbf*ck materialist metaphysic perhaps?? :rolleyes:
 
Interesting Ian said:
WE're talking about metaphysical hypotheses. How do you expect your understanding of science to help? No not all metaphysical hypotheses are equally valid.
Well, I dont believe consciousness is metaphysical.

I've never heard anyone says "not all metaphysical hypothesis are equally valid", could you name a few.

I have absolutely no interest what that clueless ar*ehole says.
Ignoring what another person says is a terrible form of reasoning, and if that method were applyed to a real debate you would see that you dont fair too well (assumption based on what I know about people, the way they work, and the Debate Team from work).

No it wasn't. You are supposed to be arguing that consciousness is generated by the brain.
In neurobiology, it takes a fairly complex brain for an animal to have consciousness. Even a cute wittle mousey has a fairly complex brain (yes, I completely and fully realize that the word "complex" is a subjective term as there is no method that can be used to assess "complexity", but just go with me on this for now). Damage/Removal of a limb does not remove consciousness. Damage/Removal of the heart does not remove consciousness. Damage/Removal of the brain (more specifically the cerebral cortex) may in fact render a person unconscious. Remember, the brain works in syncrony with many other parts of the body, conscious does not exist seperately from the brain.

In Philosophy, consciousness isnt some kind of magical mysterious "energy" that exists. Its a term used to describe knowledge of one's own existence, condition, sensations, mental operations, acts, etc.

Using empirical observation, a good ol' fashion concussion is gonna render a person unconscious (I'm laughing a bit as I write this...).

Name some people together with their reasons why they do not take him seriously.
*sigh* Materialists.

What is a magical way? Anything which is inconsistent with your dumbf*ck materialist metaphysic perhaps?? :rolleyes:
So, do you believe that I'm a figment of your consciousness and imagination, if so you could logically assert that you are argueing with yourself.
 
Again, earlier in the thread it was suggested that 'intelligence' and 'consciousness' are too ill-defined to be a valid subject of study. This seems to me like giving up too easy; the approach I would prefer is one of simply plunging in, hoping that clearer definitions would emerge from the process.

One contributor made a stronger statement: that they are entirely fictitious concepts. This is more difficult to refute than it might first appear, but some attempt to do so seems like a necessary precursor to further discussion about what they are and how they work. If these things turn out to be so much luminiferous ether, what is needed to establish this is not assertion, but some sort of cognitive Michelson-Morley experiment -- and it may be AI research that provides this.

The case for 'intelligence' is somewhat different from that of 'consciousness'. I agree with what was said earlier, that 'intelligence', like 'fitness', cannot be meaningful outside of a context which includes some type of goal (whether implicit or explicit). A process of making 'inferences based on recognition of essential structures of patterns' might not be the shortest path to some goals, and undertaking such a process could amount to 'being clever in a stupid way' (its compliment, 'being stupid in a clever way' providing more direct solutions). In other words, sometimes the smartest thing to do is not to think at all, but to simply act (an ugly thought occurs to me at this point -- that I may be demonstrating the former by my continued attention to these questions.) (*Slaps self*) (*feels better*)

Yahweh:
In neurobiology, it takes a fairly complex brain for an animal to have consciousness.
I agree that some minimal degree of complexity (or, what I called 'power and sensitivity' earlier) is required to support consciousness -- but then, this assumption pretty much follows as an inevitable consequence of my being a materialist (btw, I notice that T-theory seems to have little to say about what consciousness is, just where it resides). It may well be that neuroscience will be the first to provide crisp definitions for consciousness, but I don't think they're quite there yet. Some of the things they're looking at are mentioned here.

40-hertz oscillations in the cerebral cortex (Crick and Koch 1990)
Intralaminar nucleus in the thalamus (Bogen 1995)
Re-entrant loops in thalamocortical systems (Edelman 1989)
40-hertz rhythmic activity in thalamocortical systems (Llinas et al 1994)
Extended reticular-thalamic activation system (Newman and Baars 1993)

Try saying that last one three times real fast.
 

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