Arguing against Absolute Nihilism

[gentlehorse]

Nothing matters. Spending a night hugging the toilet after drinking way too much alcohol is essentially equivalent to devoting years to discovering the cure for a disease. Recreationally vicitmizing someone is on a par with teaching a child to read. Hmmm... Maybe so-- Nonetheless, I'll think I'll pass on nihilism.

Maybe I just don't have a good grasp of nihilism. As if it matters--

 

[komencanto]

I at last have got some time to write some replies.

This person, believes that because there is no God, no purpose, there is nothing right or wrong. Therefore, he can do whatever he wants without for any rational reason, feeling guilty or bad. He would attack a bunch of people to steal their mobiles if he could, because the only experience he can have is his own, and as the money he would get makes him happy, there is no reason not to do it.

He regularly steals from our school canteen, and sees business conmen as his idols. He has told me that he aspires to reach a high level in a company and then siphon off money for all he's worth. These are the brilliant people who get what they want in life without getting into much danger, and are to be respected, according to him.

This is what I meant by nihilism. Simply rejecting any sort of ethics. He has decided that as nothing is better than anything else, he should simply do what comes naturally to him, seeking pleasure for himself. He has admitted that sometimes he gains pleasure from helping other people and does that, but would not help others if it disadvantaged himself.

Now I'll reply to the replies:

 

[komencanto]

I will bet, when pressed, that your friend will admit to having a purpose. Otherwise, he will be arguing a form of 'no true Scotsman' when you argue that his nihilism serves a purpose to him. At the very least, he will be forced to admit that his nihilism gives him pleasure, and that is his purpose.
.

He never claimed to have no purpose. His puspose is hedonism. He simply claimed that there is no desire that is better than any other. If you get kicks out of raping people, then there is nothing wrong with that. He gets kicks out of doing what he does (stealing, etc) and so he does that, regardless of the effect it has on people he doesn't know.

 

[komencanto]

Re: Re: Arguing against Absolute Nihilism

What you should do is examine your own ethics. Does your view on loyalty and "don't be a snitch" allow you to have a friend whose worldview and actions are antithetical to yours? His complacency is dependent on reaping the benefits of being a right bastard in a world of nice guys who won't harm even a bastard. The only possible cure is to threaten him that he'll end up a bastard with no friends. If this is realistic it might work, but he might just accept it and end up a friendless and bitter bastard.

It's interesting that you say that. You see, I and another friend said that we would feel obligated to report him to the police should he murder someone. He felt that this was disgusting disloyalty, and would never dob on a friend no matter what the act. He sees loyalty as an incredible virtue for some reason.

I think I understand this. He says that he does not care at all for the suffering (although small) he might cause by stealing small items from places, because he never sees or knows the people who run the business and doesn't care if they suffer. I have suggested that this means that he has a difective empathy, because it is normal for people to suffer when seeing or knowing about injustice of pain. But he says this means he is being more logical in his actions and less instinctive, and that his is a good thing.

He says he values loyalty because he needs friend in the world to help him, and he wants to be able to count on people when he needs them, therefore he promises us that he would never steal from us, etc, in order that it will benefit him at some point. I have suggested that I do not like to steal from anyone because I see ALL people in this way, not just those I know personally. I hope that by being honest I can gain the trust of everyone, and that the world would be better for everyone if we were all honest and could trust one another. I admit that really this doesn't make that much sence, as my not stealing is not going to make the canteen owners any better disposed towards me really.

 

[komencanto]

Seriously—kick him square in the nuts, and tell him that he's correct and that there is no right and wrong, and how much better you feel about doing what feels naturally to you, and how, during those two or three minutes when he couldn't see straight while writhing on the floor, you didn't think once about your own demise, that his pain was enough of a distraction for you from the inevitability of death.
Michael

That would be brilliant if I ever had that courage to do such a thing =)
Or that bastardry and lack of empathy.

 

[komencanto]

Come on, surely someone has something to say, or is this guy just outright correct?

 

[Yahweh]

Re: Re: Re: Arguing against Absolute Nihilism

It's interesting that you say that. You see, I and another friend said that we would feel obligated to report him to the police should he murder someone. He felt that this was disgusting disloyalty, and would never dob on a friend no matter what the act. He sees loyalty as an incredible virtue for some reason.

Ah, so he has doublestandards (loyalty could be a form a ethics). It appears that it is a virtue for other to be loyal and respectful to him, but not the other way around.

I would not know why he expects people to be loyal to him, when he would be unwilling to be loyal to thers.

If he were hedonistic, perhaps he can reason like this: While maximizing his pleasure, he could minimize his anguish. Minimizing anguish comes in the form of following principles of law.

He would not be so content with raping others if due process from the law caught up with him.

This person is an idiot. Dont associate with him (unless you want to steal his wallet).

I'm sooooo glad this person has committed himself to trash. He seems to have found a Philosophy to justify criminal behavior, oh goodie...

 

[komencanto]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing against Absolute Nihilism

Ah, so he has doublestandards (loyalty could be a form a ethics). It appears that it is a virtue for other to be loyal and respectful to him, but not the other way around.

I would not know why he expects people to be loyal to him, when he would be unwilling to be loyal to them.

No, that's not what he says. Just that he would be loyal to others for loyalty in return, and would expect loyalty seeing as how he is loyal to us.

If he were hedonistic, perhaps he can reason like this: While maximizing his pleasure, he could minimize his anguish. Minimizing anguish comes in the form of following principles of law.

He would not be so content with raping others if due process from the law caught up with him.

He says that he doesn't do these things because of the law, not because he finds them disgusting , but rather out of fear of being caught and prosecuted. Hence, he doesn't steal things is plain sight, because the benefit of the object, isn't worth the time with the police.

This person is an idiot. Dont associate with him (unless you want to steal his wallet).

I'm sooooo glad this person has committed himself to trash. He seems to have found a Philosophy to justify criminal behavior, oh goodie...

Basically. The problem is hes a good friend of mine of several years and is still a nice guy. I would just like to turn him away from this philosophy before he starts to take it too seriously.

 

[Brian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing against Absolute Nihilism

Basically. The problem is hes a good friend of mine of several years and is still a nice guy. I would just like to turn him away from this philosophy before he starts to take it too seriously.

I thought of posting about being nihilistic. Nevermind.

This kid will outgrow it. Throw the Hemmingway, Sartre & Dostoyevsky at him.

 

[komencanto]

Fair enough. So nobody has any better suggestions?

 

[Gestahl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing against Absolute Nihilism

No, that's not what he says. Just that he would be loyal to others for loyalty in return, and would expect loyalty seeing as how he is loyal to us.

And *that* is the key. Reciprocity in human exchanges is the basis of Game Theory's predictions that cooperation brings greater success! If your friend truly has only his best interests in mind, that still means he should cooperate and fit within the society.

Especially given that we have corrective systems to weed out people like your friend. Your friend will wind up dead, in jail, or an old crank with no friends, or he will succeed somehow through this system. I find his philosophy very short-sighted. If we lived in a true anarchy, not just politically speaking, his philosophy is perfect. However, there is no true anarchy, and within the system in which we live, his philosophy is self-destructive. If he cannot see this, dump the loser, cuz he will drag you down with him... reciprocity works both ways. Associating with people like this leads people to harmful situations.

This guy is just someone who wants to get whatever he wants, and a philosophy with some reasoning to back it up. There is no free lunch, and any idiot should know that.

 

[Yahweh]

Fair enough. So nobody has any better suggestions?

Explain to him one thing:

His Philosophy of Egoism may encourage acting selfishly, however it says nothing of acting foolishly.

Your friend is acting foolishly.

 

[T'ai Chi]

There might not be universal rights and wrongs, but there are certainly right and wrongs that are imposed by socities that might as well be universal if you're embedded in that particular society.

 

[Kopji]

Humm... Well once upon a time there were two tribes.

Tribe A:
A loving and caring one, who treated its members fairly and lived in harmony and peace. They welcomed visitors, strangers, and people with diverse and unusual ideas.

Tribe B:
A second tribe was identical to the first, but had suffered rape and pillaging from outsiders in the past. This tribe now treated it's own members fairly and with kindness, but dealt with outsiders mercilessly and killed them on sight. This strategy enabled their survival in a hostile world.

The tribe A people were killed or captured long ago, your friend is making the grave mistake of walking into tribe B's camp...