Are there authentic crop circles?

[Vitnir]

I watched a show on Discovery Science where it was claimed that crop circles has been around for hundreds of years (300 years was mentioned) and that some aspects of crop circles cannot easily be explained by hoaxters.
Two features that would signify a real crop circle was (1) Damage to the crop that could only be explained by microwave radiation. (2) Particles of iron metal found distributed in the circle.
Then they got a group of students to replicate even these features using a portable homemade magnetron and a pyrotechnic bomb containing iron powder.
Now I don't particulary trust Discovery ever since they put on John Edwards explaining how transplanted organs can carry over memories so I ask if anyone has any insight into crop circles.
If we forget the elaborate crop circles that could hardly have formed naturally and which the show didnt try to pretend that they were anything than the works of hoaxters. I'm refering to simple circles that in my view might have been formed by a meteorite, you have the intense heat though not microwave and you have the iron particles from the meteorite itself. I dont know if meteorites have a high explanatory value, thats just the first thought I had.

Did Discovery tell the truth about the documentation of crop circles going back hundreds of years? In skeptic literature it has always been that the whole thing started when two buddies got liquered up on the english countryside.

 

[Curnir]

1. Microwave radiation.
Well the first thing that pops into my mind is:
Who determined that it could only have been microwaves?
What methods were used to determine this?

2. Iron objects/particles

Seriously, how does the presence of iron objects/paticles in any way disprove that the circle was made by humans? How hard is it to sprinkle some iron filings or junk metal randomly in a circle?

-------------------------------------
Oh and when was this show on? I only get Discovery Mix (go mythbusters!!!)

 

[Zep]

...or use a rusty lawn roller.

 

[Vitnir]

Well I don't remember the technical term for the damage on the crop but i think it was holes in the straw. I interpreted the theory so that the radiation would case water in the straw to superheat and explode out of the straw to cause the hole.
The people who made the crop circle came from MIT and here is a link http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2002/crops.html

It doesn't say much about the supposed charateristics of authentic crop circles though. The iron particles are supposed to me of magnitized iron and in size range of 10-50 mikrometers and it was claimed that you dont find that evrywhere on the surface of the earth.
Now TV is 100% entertainment and facts come in second place at best, they didnt realy show the viewers how good the students managed to replicate the microwave damage and the dispersal of the iron particles. They just had some judges come and say it looked like a good job (senior students of MIT).

 

[Lothian]

It all depends on what you mean by authentic. If you mean caused by supernatural means the answer is no.

 

[MRC_Hans]

First of all: ALL crop cirles are authentic, except when photoshopped. But if you see a depression of the crops out in a field, then it is certainly authentic.

Not all crop circles are man-made, though. In fact, most aren't. Every year, millions of patches of crops are flattened by natural phenomenon, mostly a combination of wind and rain. The vast majority of these are of irregular shape, but if course, some will be close to circular, and may even occasionally resemble more complex shapes. The natural ones have existed for as long as fields have been cultivated, which means at least 5,000 years.

Since pranksters have existed for at least as long as homo sapiens, man-made crop circles may also have appeared for 5,000 years.

Could the presense of iron particles be due to meteors? Presumably, yes. If an iron meteor explodes and disintegrates at a fairly low altitude, there will probably be an increased concentration of iron particles on the surface below. Could the explosion create a crop circle? Perhaps, but it must be a very rare occurrence.

Hans

 

[De_Bunk]

Zep...

Yeh...and a couple of bored high school students...

DB

 

[Vitnir]

The personal opinion of the students making the crop circle was that all circles have been made by wealthy people with lots of free time and I agree.

I should have clarified that authentic circles are those not made by prankters. I agree that it is rather futile to guess what natural phenomena might cause circles so I focused on the claim that they have been around a long time. The alien or supernatural or secret space weapon hypothesis is too far fetched to be seriously discussed.
This is a topic that I havent read much about myself so I thought it would be interesting if a skeptic who has would comment.
That a meteorite would disintegrate just over an circle that were made by a prankster sounds odd but it depends so much of how the investigation was made. Was soil samples taken just inside the circle and was not compared to reference samples a distance away for example? A meteorite could conceivable spray a large area with iron particles increasing the odds that a prankster would show up before the particles had oxidized or another unrelated natural phenomena had taken place.

Is crop circles just another field which no serious scientists are investigating and all information comes from amateurs?

 

[Curnir]

The personal opinion of the students making the crop circle was that all circles have been made by wealthy people with lots of free time and I agree.

Define wealthy.

I should have clarified that authentic circles are those not made by prankters. I agree that it is rather futile to guess what natural phenomena might cause circles so I focused on the claim that they have been around a long time. The alien or supernatural or secret space weapon hypothesis is too far fetched to be seriously discussed.

Well I would speculate that what in sweden is called a 'tromb' (small scale tornado) would be able to flatten the crops in a select area, but that would hardly be a 'perfect' circle/pattern

This is a topic that I havent read much about myself so I thought it would be interesting if a skeptic who has would comment.
That a meteorite would disintegrate just over an circle that were made by a prankster sounds odd but it depends so much of how the investigation was made. Was soil samples taken just inside the circle and was not compared to reference samples a distance away for example? A meteorite could conceivable spray a large area with iron particles increasing the odds that a prankster would show up before the particles had oxidized or another unrelated natural phenomena had taken place.

The question is:
Who finds these iron particles and what method is used to determine whether there is anything special about them.

Woos have an almost supernatural ability to see ordinary things such as scrap iron and iron filings as something 'special'.

Is crop circles just another field which no serious scientists are investigating and all information comes from amateurs?

Basicly 2 factions.
1. Circlemakers
2. Cerologist woos

Not really anything do do serious scientific research about.

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*
Is crop circles just another field which no serious scientists are investigating and all information comes from amateurs?

Exactly!

Serious scientists tend to investigate serious ideas. Since the most likely explanation for crop circles (apart from wind and rain) is, by a very far margin, human praksters (or whatever you will label them), any other idea is hardly a serious idea. You will notice that ALL other explanations involve hypothetical creatures or phenomenon, for which almost the only evidende is ..... crop circles.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Basicly 2 factions.
1. Circlemakers
2. Cerologist woos

Not really anything do do serious scientific research about.

And those two groups practically live off each other. If the cerologist woos did not keep hinting at something mystical, the circlemakers would be reduced to simple vandals. And if circlemakers did not make circles, obviously Cerologists would be looking for a job.


Hans

 

[Vitnir]

Sounds like case closed. The serious angle of crop destruction (wind and rain) is taken care of by the industry who has developed crops with shorter straw that resists the elements better.

 

[Hellbound]

ACtually, National Geographic did one of thier "Is It Real?" series on crop circles. VERY informative, if you can find a copy.

The supposed "microwave damage" was from the way the "knuckles" on the stalk were busted/exploded out. However, this entire theory of microwaves superheating the water inside them is suspect for two reasons:

1. It was the "cerologists" who made the claim. Cerology is not a recognized science, it is the name given by circle researchers to themselves. No data was given to back this up, simpyl the "expert opinion" of some cerologists.

2. Microwaves, contrary to common belief, do not heat just water and do not cook from the "inside out". There'd be other evidence of microwave damage in the areas.

An actual grain researcher on the show explained the busted "knobs" on the stalks, and reproduced them on the show. It's been a while, so I can't recall the actual explanation, but it was enough to put paid to the "only microwaves" claim.

There has been some serious research, but no t alot. Mostly a few real scientists who get bored, or get intrigued bya particular aspect and research it. No research dedicated to the entire phenomena that I know of, though. Mostly attempts to replicate it (the MIT group) or simple explanations of parts of the supposed details (refutation of the microwave theory).

 

[bjb]

About the presence iron: I used to watch Gumby as a little kid. In one episode, Gumby takes a magnet, rubs it some dirt, and finds that it is covered in iron filings. Later that day, I took one of my own toy magnets and rubbed in the dirt in our back yard. I was very surprised to see it was covered in iron filings and I did it over and over again. I gained a new respect for Gumby that day, and these crop circle fanatics have something to learn from that little green blob of clay.

 

[Soapy Sam]

There's Tunguska. And Mt.St. Helens. Explosions flatten trees in a (vaguely) radial pattern.
If the trees are a cash crop, I guess it's a crop circle.

I have seen a small whirlwind flatten barley in a spiral, but it was very irregular and the associated rain flattened half the field seconds later.

I've also noticed that when rain flattens a cereal it can pick out patterns caused by tyre marks from the tractor that planted the seed. These can give the impression of a designed , looping pattern in the flattened cereal.

 

[Archangel]

About the presence iron: I used to watch Gumby as a little kid. In one episode, Gumby takes a magnet, rubs it some dirt, and finds that it is covered in iron filings. Later that day, I took one of my own toy magnets and rubbed in the dirt in our back yard. I was very surprised to see it was covered in iron filings and I did it over and over again. I gained a new respect for Gumby that day, and these crop circle fanatics have something to learn from that little green blob of clay.

Yeah but after that did you get a helicopter to falter in midflight over the area you rubbed?

##Edited to add##
In the show they had a team of 2 other MIT students "study" the crop circle and give it a grade, as part of this they had a Chopper take them over the crop circle, it then lost power over the circle (a supposedly common feature of "real" crop circles), only just regaining power ~20feet off the ground.
####


I still think that they had the pilot "lose power" on purpose so that it'd make the scene more interesting, even with the leaky magnetron bit earlier and its destruction of some of the equipment because of it.

 

[jj]

rope, plank, practice, PooF you have one authentic crop circle.

What's inauthentic about the hoax kind? They are circles. They are in crops.

If you meant 'made by supernatural forces' then there' s no evidence.

 

[Amapola]

I still think that they had the pilot "lose power" on purpose so that it'd make the scene more interesting, even with the leaky magnetron bit earlier and its destruction of some of the equipment because of it.

I would not be surprised if you are absolutely correct. I believe those are called "auto-rotations" and as I recall, helicopter pilots do them to test the engine for certain things. It has been a while though..... I may not have this 100% accurate. That is just what I remember.

 

[PogoPedant]

An actual grain researcher on the show explained the busted "knobs" on the stalks, and reproduced them on the show. It's been a while, so I can't recall the actual explanation, but it was enough to put paid to the "only microwaves" claim.

The exploding knobs can be reproduced by bending the straw at the knob. Childhood memories.

 

[Vitnir]

...
I still think that they had the pilot "lose power" on purpose so that it'd make the scene more interesting, even with the leaky magnetron bit earlier and its destruction of some of the equipment because of it.

Or he skipped the maintenance bit on the fuel injection system last time he serviced the engine. I got suspicious on the scene where the magnetron wrecked the batteries for the sound/video crewman, if the radiation was that strong it would be irresponsible of whoever was in charge. There are restrictions on the exposure to microwave radiation I hope.

The supposed "microwave damage" was from the way the "knuckles" on the stalk were busted/exploded out. However, this entire theory of microwaves superheating the water inside them is suspect for two reasons:

Another example why you shouldnt blindly trust authorities of information presented on TV shows.

There's Tunguska. And Mt.St. Helens. Explosions flatten trees in a (vaguely) radial pattern.
If the trees are a cash crop, I guess it's a crop circle.

And add speculation, desire to be part of something exciting, active imagination you can have someone believe that they still saw a perfect crop circle that couldnt have be produced by wind and rain. Personally I think this is how "authentic" crop circles come to life.