Are Christians Persecuted? A Replication Poll
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neutrino_cannon
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I stand by my previous statement. Still actually.
The Branch Davidians, the Covenant Sword and Arm of the Lord, the Momons, and proably a few others I can't think of right now have all experienced vary arguably unfair oppression in America at some point at the hands of the people of the country or the government.
Do you think that those people qualify as christians billiefan2000? I'm going to say you don't, but feel free to suprise me. I somehow think that those groups sum up what christianity was really originally about more than any mainstream groups do today.
I'm positive (that is, I'm willing to posit that) mainstream christians, however loosely defined, are not at any serious risk of being disenfranchised in any major way by the vast majority of America. This includes other christian groups too, there quite peaceful in this country, although they used to be rather hard on each other.
There will always be groups that do not favor you particular set of values, but dissention does not amount to persecution. persecution is Nazis, dissention is Thomas Paine.
The Branch Davidians, the Covenant Sword and Arm of the Lord, the Momons, and proably a few others I can't think of right now have all experienced vary arguably unfair oppression in America at some point at the hands of the people of the country or the government.
Do you think that those people qualify as christians billiefan2000? I'm going to say you don't, but feel free to suprise me. I somehow think that those groups sum up what christianity was really originally about more than any mainstream groups do today.
I'm positive (that is, I'm willing to posit that) mainstream christians, however loosely defined, are not at any serious risk of being disenfranchised in any major way by the vast majority of America. This includes other christian groups too, there quite peaceful in this country, although they used to be rather hard on each other.
There will always be groups that do not favor you particular set of values, but dissention does not amount to persecution. persecution is Nazis, dissention is Thomas Paine.
evildave
Unregistered
E
Yes: But mostly by each other in the U.S.
In certain nations where Islamic theocracies rule, you must be Islamic. Being Christian (or trying to spread Christianity) would be a crime there.
In China there's an officially recognized Christian church, but this isn't "good enough" for foreign Christians who keep introducing their own fruity flavors and getting people into trouble.
In certain nations where Islamic theocracies rule, you must be Islamic. Being Christian (or trying to spread Christianity) would be a crime there.
In China there's an officially recognized Christian church, but this isn't "good enough" for foreign Christians who keep introducing their own fruity flavors and getting people into trouble.
Re: Yahweh
However, many folk are unlikely to sympathize because EVERY group (religious, racial, creed, wealth, etc.) has been persecuted at some time to extents all across the spectrum. I would very much disagree with the kinds of persecution that Christians claim are occurring (i.e. phrases which are blantantly false that are meant to demonize others while painting Christians as innocent victims such as "blah blah blah, but when a Christian student wants to pray in school, she is punished and chastized").
If you claim that Christians and Christians alone are the only group being persecuted, then I would respectfully disagree.
If you claim Christians are being persecuted any more than other groups, I'll respectfully disagree.
If you claim Christians do not persecute other groups, I'll respectfully disagree.
If you claim Christians are justified to persecute other groups, I'll respectfully disagree.
If you claim Atheists are not persecuted, I'll respectfully disagree.
Intolerance of all kinds exist everywhere, its a fact of life that some people's ignorance take control of their bodies and force them to do and say bad things, you and other Christians are not alone when it comes to taking the brunt of other's ignorance. However, I would say Christians take much less of the heat of "persecution" than I'm led to believe. People have a habit of unconsciously holding themselves more "special" than the people around them, this is why 94% of colledge professors believe they are better at their jobs than their collegues, this is why Eighty-five percent of medical students think it is improper for politicians to accept gifts from lobbyists yet only 46 percent think it's improper for physicians to accept gifts from drug companies. Its merely a form of unconscious self-deception to think Christians are being persecuted to the extent of anti-Christian mentality or oppression of Christians simply for being Christians.
Now, to answer you intial question:
From Dictionary.com - Persecute
Atheists are aware of Religious persecution, they are aware of Christian Persecution (primarily in China and Middle East countries), I havent denied that.billiefan2000 said:
However, many folk are unlikely to sympathize because EVERY group (religious, racial, creed, wealth, etc.) has been persecuted at some time to extents all across the spectrum. I would very much disagree with the kinds of persecution that Christians claim are occurring (i.e. phrases which are blantantly false that are meant to demonize others while painting Christians as innocent victims such as "blah blah blah, but when a Christian student wants to pray in school, she is punished and chastized").
If you claim that Christians and Christians alone are the only group being persecuted, then I would respectfully disagree.
If you claim Christians are being persecuted any more than other groups, I'll respectfully disagree.
If you claim Christians do not persecute other groups, I'll respectfully disagree.
If you claim Christians are justified to persecute other groups, I'll respectfully disagree.
If you claim Atheists are not persecuted, I'll respectfully disagree.
Intolerance of all kinds exist everywhere, its a fact of life that some people's ignorance take control of their bodies and force them to do and say bad things, you and other Christians are not alone when it comes to taking the brunt of other's ignorance. However, I would say Christians take much less of the heat of "persecution" than I'm led to believe. People have a habit of unconsciously holding themselves more "special" than the people around them, this is why 94% of colledge professors believe they are better at their jobs than their collegues, this is why Eighty-five percent of medical students think it is improper for politicians to accept gifts from lobbyists yet only 46 percent think it's improper for physicians to accept gifts from drug companies. Its merely a form of unconscious self-deception to think Christians are being persecuted to the extent of anti-Christian mentality or oppression of Christians simply for being Christians.
Now, to answer you intial question:
From Dictionary.com - Persecute
I agree with Yahweh on this one. I think Christian "persecution" is being overblown.
The analogy I would make is the Ashcroft stuff. Patriot Act stuff is being proclaimed as Gestapo like attacks on civil liberties. Whatever. Why does everything always have to be blown out of proportion?
I'm not championing the Patriot Act here. Let's just take it easy with the demagoguery and stuff. You can't find an ideological or a religious group that isn't *persecuted* in some way or another for some reason or another. I would reserve the use of the word persecution for serious stuff, however. That's just me.
-Elliot
The analogy I would make is the Ashcroft stuff. Patriot Act stuff is being proclaimed as Gestapo like attacks on civil liberties. Whatever. Why does everything always have to be blown out of proportion?
I'm not championing the Patriot Act here. Let's just take it easy with the demagoguery and stuff. You can't find an ideological or a religious group that isn't *persecuted* in some way or another for some reason or another. I would reserve the use of the word persecution for serious stuff, however. That's just me.
-Elliot
I think, just so that the Christians can be telling the truth for a change, I am going to start persecuting Christians. Yes, I know it will be hard, but I am willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, so that the entire American Christian population doesn't go to hell for being a bunch of lying whining p*ssies.
Some Friggin Guy
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Billiefan, I will freely admit to there being persecution of christians in other countries. I think the primary problem I, personally, have with your statement, is your claim that christians are being persecuted in Philadelphia.
I read your article in the other thread and still fail to see any persecution of christians in it. What I see is someone breaking the law and being punished.
So, would you care to provide any evidence of christians being persecuted in the US?
I read your article in the other thread and still fail to see any persecution of christians in it. What I see is someone breaking the law and being punished.
So, would you care to provide any evidence of christians being persecuted in the US?
Re: DarkMagician
Maybe because maybe of them follow the teachings of Jesus and are private with their belief, as Jesus suggests. Remember, the Bible specifically instructs Christians that the Loudest among them likely have the least amount of faith.billiefan2000 said:
Re: Re: DarkMagician
Eh? Can you quote chapter and verse on that one?
What is this about the loudest among them? Chapter and verse?
You may be referring to the Pharisee who goes to temple and beats his breast, sackcloth and ashes, and all that. But that is a public display of what should be a personal activity (going to Temple to pray). That has nothing to do with the commission in the Bible to spread the good news.
-Elliot
Zero said:
Eh? Can you quote chapter and verse on that one?
What is this about the loudest among them? Chapter and verse?
You may be referring to the Pharisee who goes to temple and beats his breast, sackcloth and ashes, and all that. But that is a public display of what should be a personal activity (going to Temple to pray). That has nothing to do with the commission in the Bible to spread the good news.
-Elliot
billiefan2000
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Attacks on religious freedom intensifying worldwide
http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=17429
WASHINGTON (BP)--The list of suffering reads like Hebrews 11:32-39: churches seized, people dragged from meetings and beaten to death, seeing their homes destroyed, or being arrested for carrying Bibles.
Instead of 2,000 years ago, however, such horrors occur daily across the world, according to several organizations that track reports of religious persecution. The situation is so bad that Forum 18 -- an advocacy organization based in Oslo, Norway -- lists erosion of religious freedom the past 10 years as its leading concern.
Among the abuses:
-- The slaughter of 10,000 Christians in Indonesia over the past five years. Jeff King, president of International Christian Concern (ICC) in Washington, said during this time 1,000 churches have been destroyed, along with 80,000 Christians' homes.
-- The Washington-based Center for Religious Freedom reports that Vietnamese authorities are stepping up their campaign against minority Christians, in some instances threatening to murder spiritual leaders. Last year, the center reported that police beat three Hmong Christians to death, including the 10-year-old child of a church leader.
In addition, the Compass Direct news service in Santa Ana, Calif., has reported the impending trial of a Vietnamese house church leader arrested for resisting an officer last August.
-- Compass Direct reported Dec. 29 that a Chinese house church leader died while in police custody after her arrest by police Oct. 29. The news service reported that Zhang Hongmei, 33, was seen at the police station in heavy chains and injured, and the next day her family learned she had died.
-- In mid-December, Compass reported that a 51-year-old priest was murdered Nov. 14 in Colombia, the second priest to be killed in the country over a three-week period.
Leaders of the three religious freedom organizations encourage Americans to intercede for believers in other parts of the world and spread the word about their plight.
"Americans can help by just telling others and getting the story out," King said. "Most people don't know how bad things are."
David Miller, managing editor of Compass Direct, said various atrocities often don't involve mass numbers of victims and fail to generate headlines.
"There's very little interest in the mainline press," Miller said. "People don't want to read about it. But it's happening, and people need to read about it."
Felix Corley, editor of Forum 18 News Service, said the continuing -- and in some cases, intensified -- nature of attacks on religious freedoms of all people are particularly bothersome.
In recent weeks, Forum 18 has reported on the seizure of a Methodist church in Moscow and the arrest of a Baptist pastor in Turkmenistan. Among other situations Forum 18 is following are continued state atheism in Belarus, repression practiced by Azerbaijan and continued toleration of violence against religious minorities in the former Soviet state of Georgia.
"Sadly, there are other countries which could be added to that list, as well as countries like Saudi Arabia and Indonesia," Corley said.
Saudi Arabia and Indonesia were among offenders listed in the latest International Religious Freedom Report, released Dec. 18 by the U.S. State Department.
The report cited Burma, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea and Vietnam for totalitarian attempts to control religion. Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan were listed as practicing state hostility toward minority or non-approved religions.
Indonesia appeared in a section reviewing "state neglect of discrimination against, or persecution of, minority or non-approved religions."
However, King said the Indonesian situation is much worse. During a visit to the Southeast Asian nation last fall, he toured villages where Muslim marauders had pillaged and burned a multitude of homes.
While some Christians have since rebuilt, others are afraid to return, ICC's president said. In addition to loss of life and property, countless numbers of Christians have had hands or feet cut off or been subjected to forced circumcision, King said.
Although the government finally dispatched troops to quell the violence, about 30 Christians were killed during the last three months of 2003, King said. He believes that is an ominous indicator that the situation is heating up again, noting that hostilities typically resume after troops withdraw.
Among attacks last fall was a bombing raid on the Indonesian village of Old Bethlehem, Miller said. Nine people died and 11 were injured in the attack. "People are starting to flee because the military is unwilling or unable to protect them," he noted.
Another troublesome spot is Sudan, where more than 10 Christian churches and a church-run vocational training center were destroyed the past two months, according to Compass Direct.
It appears a peace treaty between Muslims and Christians may be forthcoming, the ICC's King said, but the government has a long history of not honoring its agreements.
The United Nations has declared a humanitarian crisis in the Sudanese city of Darfur, labeling the situation "the worst in the world today," King said. Actions taken by Arab-backed militias against Sudanese Christians amount to ethnic cleansing, he said, quoting a statement by the UN's humanitarian coordinator for the Sudan.
Other leading concerns expressed by King and Miller include:
-- North Korea
"North Korea is a place where they put you to death or put you in prison if you have a Bible," King said. "There's two kinds of death, one slow and one quick. Yet there is an underground church. The more they try to stamp it out, the more the light shines."
-- Eritrea, in the Red Sea region, which was cited by the State Department for discriminatory legislation or policies against certain religions.
The only recognized faiths there are Orthodox, Evangelical Lutheran, Muslim and Catholic, Miller said. A full-gospel church center was recently confiscated by the government and more than 300 Pentecostals imprisoned for having Bibles, attending house church meetings or sharing their faith, he said.
Among them were 62 teenagers who were arrested last year at a military summer camp, locked in metal shipping containers and told to renounce their faith, Miller said. While most were released, the Compass editor said another 75 soldiers are still being held for the same reason.
-- India
In the world's largest democracy, a Hindu fundamentalist movement has led to laws against converting to other faiths, Miller said.
Often, Hindus will attack Christian schools, churches or evangelical rallies, beating believers with sticks, he said. If police come, the attackers claim their victims were blaspheming their gods.
"It's a lot like Nazi Germany in the 1930s, where people used anti-Semitic laws to attack the Jews," Miller said. "Hindu nationalists share some of the same fascist ideology as the Nazis in Germany."
Although the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church is observed the second Sunday of November, these observers urge Americans to participate in continuing prayer vigils.
When believers who have faced oppression are asked how others can assist them, their first answer is, "Pray," Miller said. He suggested dedicating a particular Sunday or including it as an ongoing request on church prayer lists.
"They've given us testimony after testimony of how prayer has made a difference," the Compass editor said. "It's the most effective thing we can do, and it's something every Christian can do."
Believers also can assist such organizations as Open Doors, Christian Solidarity and Voice of the Martyrs, which help persecuted Christians and families by providing Bibles, training and supplies, Miller said.
King also is an advocate of focused prayer. In addition, ICC's president said Christians can help by sending aid to ministries at work in the Sudan, Cuba and other oppressed nations and by staying informed.
"Basically, keeping up to date on the [Internet] so they know who to call and when to sign petitions," King said. "People can work through agencies like ICC and the Jubilee Campaign ... that work on Capitol Hill to influence senators, congressmen and others who have a hot button for this issue."
http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=17429
WASHINGTON (BP)--The list of suffering reads like Hebrews 11:32-39: churches seized, people dragged from meetings and beaten to death, seeing their homes destroyed, or being arrested for carrying Bibles.
Instead of 2,000 years ago, however, such horrors occur daily across the world, according to several organizations that track reports of religious persecution. The situation is so bad that Forum 18 -- an advocacy organization based in Oslo, Norway -- lists erosion of religious freedom the past 10 years as its leading concern.
Among the abuses:
-- The slaughter of 10,000 Christians in Indonesia over the past five years. Jeff King, president of International Christian Concern (ICC) in Washington, said during this time 1,000 churches have been destroyed, along with 80,000 Christians' homes.
-- The Washington-based Center for Religious Freedom reports that Vietnamese authorities are stepping up their campaign against minority Christians, in some instances threatening to murder spiritual leaders. Last year, the center reported that police beat three Hmong Christians to death, including the 10-year-old child of a church leader.
In addition, the Compass Direct news service in Santa Ana, Calif., has reported the impending trial of a Vietnamese house church leader arrested for resisting an officer last August.
-- Compass Direct reported Dec. 29 that a Chinese house church leader died while in police custody after her arrest by police Oct. 29. The news service reported that Zhang Hongmei, 33, was seen at the police station in heavy chains and injured, and the next day her family learned she had died.
-- In mid-December, Compass reported that a 51-year-old priest was murdered Nov. 14 in Colombia, the second priest to be killed in the country over a three-week period.
Leaders of the three religious freedom organizations encourage Americans to intercede for believers in other parts of the world and spread the word about their plight.
"Americans can help by just telling others and getting the story out," King said. "Most people don't know how bad things are."
David Miller, managing editor of Compass Direct, said various atrocities often don't involve mass numbers of victims and fail to generate headlines.
"There's very little interest in the mainline press," Miller said. "People don't want to read about it. But it's happening, and people need to read about it."
Felix Corley, editor of Forum 18 News Service, said the continuing -- and in some cases, intensified -- nature of attacks on religious freedoms of all people are particularly bothersome.
In recent weeks, Forum 18 has reported on the seizure of a Methodist church in Moscow and the arrest of a Baptist pastor in Turkmenistan. Among other situations Forum 18 is following are continued state atheism in Belarus, repression practiced by Azerbaijan and continued toleration of violence against religious minorities in the former Soviet state of Georgia.
"Sadly, there are other countries which could be added to that list, as well as countries like Saudi Arabia and Indonesia," Corley said.
Saudi Arabia and Indonesia were among offenders listed in the latest International Religious Freedom Report, released Dec. 18 by the U.S. State Department.
The report cited Burma, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea and Vietnam for totalitarian attempts to control religion. Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan were listed as practicing state hostility toward minority or non-approved religions.
Indonesia appeared in a section reviewing "state neglect of discrimination against, or persecution of, minority or non-approved religions."
However, King said the Indonesian situation is much worse. During a visit to the Southeast Asian nation last fall, he toured villages where Muslim marauders had pillaged and burned a multitude of homes.
While some Christians have since rebuilt, others are afraid to return, ICC's president said. In addition to loss of life and property, countless numbers of Christians have had hands or feet cut off or been subjected to forced circumcision, King said.
Although the government finally dispatched troops to quell the violence, about 30 Christians were killed during the last three months of 2003, King said. He believes that is an ominous indicator that the situation is heating up again, noting that hostilities typically resume after troops withdraw.
Among attacks last fall was a bombing raid on the Indonesian village of Old Bethlehem, Miller said. Nine people died and 11 were injured in the attack. "People are starting to flee because the military is unwilling or unable to protect them," he noted.
Another troublesome spot is Sudan, where more than 10 Christian churches and a church-run vocational training center were destroyed the past two months, according to Compass Direct.
It appears a peace treaty between Muslims and Christians may be forthcoming, the ICC's King said, but the government has a long history of not honoring its agreements.
The United Nations has declared a humanitarian crisis in the Sudanese city of Darfur, labeling the situation "the worst in the world today," King said. Actions taken by Arab-backed militias against Sudanese Christians amount to ethnic cleansing, he said, quoting a statement by the UN's humanitarian coordinator for the Sudan.
Other leading concerns expressed by King and Miller include:
-- North Korea
"North Korea is a place where they put you to death or put you in prison if you have a Bible," King said. "There's two kinds of death, one slow and one quick. Yet there is an underground church. The more they try to stamp it out, the more the light shines."
-- Eritrea, in the Red Sea region, which was cited by the State Department for discriminatory legislation or policies against certain religions.
The only recognized faiths there are Orthodox, Evangelical Lutheran, Muslim and Catholic, Miller said. A full-gospel church center was recently confiscated by the government and more than 300 Pentecostals imprisoned for having Bibles, attending house church meetings or sharing their faith, he said.
Among them were 62 teenagers who were arrested last year at a military summer camp, locked in metal shipping containers and told to renounce their faith, Miller said. While most were released, the Compass editor said another 75 soldiers are still being held for the same reason.
-- India
In the world's largest democracy, a Hindu fundamentalist movement has led to laws against converting to other faiths, Miller said.
Often, Hindus will attack Christian schools, churches or evangelical rallies, beating believers with sticks, he said. If police come, the attackers claim their victims were blaspheming their gods.
"It's a lot like Nazi Germany in the 1930s, where people used anti-Semitic laws to attack the Jews," Miller said. "Hindu nationalists share some of the same fascist ideology as the Nazis in Germany."
Although the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church is observed the second Sunday of November, these observers urge Americans to participate in continuing prayer vigils.
When believers who have faced oppression are asked how others can assist them, their first answer is, "Pray," Miller said. He suggested dedicating a particular Sunday or including it as an ongoing request on church prayer lists.
"They've given us testimony after testimony of how prayer has made a difference," the Compass editor said. "It's the most effective thing we can do, and it's something every Christian can do."
Believers also can assist such organizations as Open Doors, Christian Solidarity and Voice of the Martyrs, which help persecuted Christians and families by providing Bibles, training and supplies, Miller said.
King also is an advocate of focused prayer. In addition, ICC's president said Christians can help by sending aid to ministries at work in the Sudan, Cuba and other oppressed nations and by staying informed.
"Basically, keeping up to date on the [Internet] so they know who to call and when to sign petitions," King said. "People can work through agencies like ICC and the Jubilee Campaign ... that work on Capitol Hill to influence senators, congressmen and others who have a hot button for this issue."
Certainly christians are persecuted in many places throughout the world, including the US. In the US however I would have to say christians are the least persecuted of any organized superstition.
I have trouble taking this question seriously. Politicians cite their religion as their inspiration, judges put up election signs touting their commitment to the bible. I can't drive 10 miles from my home without seeing half a dozen christian billboard or church signs. Mormons and JWs come to my door at least once a month to spread their silly nonsense. There are 3 christian cable networks carried as part of the basic service package here. Christians are the most vocal religious group in the country. Every third car I pass on the highway has a jesus fish emblem. One of the reasons many of us non-christians get so annoyed with christian retoric is that the appostolic traditions demands that they spread their faith to others.
How much more vocal should they be? Not that I object to their right to proclaim their faith. They're entitled to it. But to ask why aren't they more vocal about it?
I have trouble taking this question seriously. Politicians cite their religion as their inspiration, judges put up election signs touting their commitment to the bible. I can't drive 10 miles from my home without seeing half a dozen christian billboard or church signs. Mormons and JWs come to my door at least once a month to spread their silly nonsense. There are 3 christian cable networks carried as part of the basic service package here. Christians are the most vocal religious group in the country. Every third car I pass on the highway has a jesus fish emblem. One of the reasons many of us non-christians get so annoyed with christian retoric is that the appostolic traditions demands that they spread their faith to others.
How much more vocal should they be? Not that I object to their right to proclaim their faith. They're entitled to it. But to ask why aren't they more vocal about it?
epepke
Philosopher
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2003
- Messages
- 9,264
Re: geni
If it's reasonable to conclude "Christians are persecuted [yes/no]" based on the undeniable fact that some Christians are persecuted, then it's also reasonble to conclude "Christians are violent pedophiles [yes/no]" based on the undeniable fact that some Christians are violent pedophiles.
If the question is whether Christians are generally violent pedophiles, then the answer is no. Concommitantly, if the question is whether Christians are generally persecuted, the answer is also no.
Atheism has nothing to do with it. You just don't get to have a different standard for when you're whingeing from the standard you get when you're beating your chest.
billiefan2000 said:
If it's reasonable to conclude "Christians are persecuted [yes/no]" based on the undeniable fact that some Christians are persecuted, then it's also reasonble to conclude "Christians are violent pedophiles [yes/no]" based on the undeniable fact that some Christians are violent pedophiles.If the question is whether Christians are generally violent pedophiles, then the answer is no. Concommitantly, if the question is whether Christians are generally persecuted, the answer is also no.
Atheism has nothing to do with it. You just don't get to have a different standard for when you're whingeing from the standard you get when you're beating your chest.
Christians are a bunch of crybabies. Plus, in the case of billiefan and others, my real question is: is Christian suffering worldwide qualitatively different than the suffering of Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, or anyone else who faces persecution? If not, then why make a special big deal about Christiian suffering, besides selfishness and ego?
Cleon
King of the Pod People
This whole thread reminds of an old "Weekend Update" with Norm McDonald. Apparently the Scientologists were whining that Germany (which, like many European countries, has anti-cult laws) were "oppressing their religion." Norm continued...
"To which the German government responded, 'We're Germans. When we oppress your religion, you'll know it!'"
"To which the German government responded, 'We're Germans. When we oppress your religion, you'll know it!'"
TruthSeeker said:
Not in this country...as far as I know. In other countries they are...but so are other people of various other religions depending on where you go.
When I was a Christian, I was treated as part of an elite group. Almost everyone I knew and met was a Christian. That includes all my Doctors. I was never ever treated ill for it...and never saw or heard of another being treated ill for it. Still, there were complaints that there was not enough "God" in schools etc. Everything was "more God". Atheist, secular humanist, buddhists, and sometimes even Catholics, were considered being used by satan. They were also considered part of the mission field. You were only to make friends in order to witness...even if your witness was subtle and slow.......but if after several months of nothing happening to convert them, you should carefully pull back your friendship to just being civil. Now, that was not the attitude of all Christians, it was just the way that I...and many others were taught to behave.
It got to a point where I could not handle the duplicity of making "secular" friends just to witness to them. I began to make online friends of various beliefs and did not witness. This brought many accusations my way from online christians. They said I was "pandering to the dark side" and headed for danger. If anything, I've had more persecution from Christian themselves than anything else.
Now that I am a Unitarian/Secular humanist, I am more aware of how some Christians react to or treat non-Christians. I find it appalling.
So many atheists and agnostics hide their beleifs for fear of what might happen...even the potential to lose their job.
Where I live, In Texas, you see so many cars with Jesus fishies on their bumpers. You never see an atheist symbol or a pagan symbol or humanist or Unitarian. Some brave people do have democrat bumper stickers. Now there might be vehicles with non-Christian symbols on them, but I've been looking and looking and I never see any..............not even on the cars of the members from my Unitarian fellowship. You might end up with a keyed car if you put on some secular symbol.
So, I get pretty ticked off when Christians start running on about being persecuted. However, I know it's just a sort of brainwashed view. I had it once too. I would not...could not face the facts. I had to believe that we had it rough...even though I knew we had it great....if that makes any sense!!!
Dragonrock
Militant Elvisian Tacoist
Telling themselves that they are persecuted makes them feel strong and brave. They point to how they are standing against the tide of atheism. It also gives them an excuse when laws regulating drinking or sunday shop hours are overturned as being religious. They are already good at seeing only what they want to, so they just datamine for attacks against christians to show that evil is afoot.
This whole idea that Christians are being persecuted is outdated. There was a time when they were a persecuted minority, but now that time is over and they're the ones doing the persecuting, and they're so good at it they even attack each other for not being Christian enough. They isolate themselves. They preach that intolerance is love, and go around "loving" everybody, fighting imaginary demons until real people get hurt.
Cleon said:
Germany does persecute Scientologists, as well as members of other new religions. Cult = religion I do not like, usually a new one challenging the hegemony of mainstream religions. The more hysterical anti-cult groups in the U.S. are Xian-based, and they make it a mission to demonize and persecute members of other, new religions. From a UVA site addressing religious movements (link following):
"The Church of Scientology has faced its greatest opposition in Germany, where, according to the Associated Press, German Chancellor Helmut Kohl's government believes Scientology is a threat to Germany's democracy. Also, the Church is considered an enterprise and German Scientologists are prohibited from public jobs and under close surveillance. The United States Department of State issued a highly critical report summarizing problems of religious freedom in Germany. 38
Numerous commissions have been organized in Germany, not only to investigate Scientology but other religious movements as well. The German government classifies these groups as possible "sects and pyscho-groups." The commissions continue to investigate Scientologists in Germany. A final report on cults by the German commission created by the Bundestag was issued in June 1998. 38 Prior to the release of this report, six German professors issued an essay condemning the German State for "once more taking part in the defamation of and discrimination against religious and ideological minorities." 40 The professors cite bias among the members of the Enquiry Commission and inadequacies in the commission's interim report."
This discuses Xian activities to persecute members of new American religions: counter cult movement
Scientology in general: including discussion of Germany