Are ALL Pharma scientific studies published?

[MikeAparicio]

See: http://www.badscience.net/2007/10/543/



I've only quoted a small portion of the post and it really is worth reading in full.

That's not the point jdc.

The point is: The Real Natural substances under the phony names have been traditionally used for centuries and continue to be used. Maybe if by those times there would have been Internet, skeptic forums, FDA and anti-natural trends, the "medicines" which came out of the substances would have never seen the light.

What I say is: Strong denial of anything can lead to censorship and restriction and loss.

Oh! By the way: To kill yourself with a herb would require quite a lot of pounds, with rare exceptions; not like having a cute bottle of pills nicely branded, packed, certified and supervised by FDA. And so easy to swallow!

 

[John Jones]

What about the Willow tree?

IS it not the cortex tea delivers plain natural aspirin?

And OF COURSE aspirin would be of monetary interest to pharma!

Zillions of tablets sold every month! Wow!

Big business....

P.S. Do you want me to list quite a few Natural Source true medicines? Not only water!!!!

I don't know about any 'cortex tea', but the willow tree bark provides salicylic acid. Aspirin is the acetylated derivative of salicylic acid.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're carrying on about - except that you think the pharmaceutical business is evil for wanting to show a profit.

It's as simple as this: The first priority of any business is survival.

Maybe you disagree.

 

[Reality Check]

The point is: The Real Natural substances under the phony names have been traditionally used for centuries and continue to be used.

The real point is that this and your entire post has nothing to do with this thread.

But there is a bit of ignorance to address.
So...
Oh! By the way: To kill yourself with a herb would require a pinch quite freqently.
To kill yourself with the herbs sold in stores would require quite a lot of pounds, with rare exceptions.
Not like not like having a cute bottle of pills nicely branded, packed, not certified by FDA, not supervised by FDA. And so easy to swallow! And including instructions about how to take them safely .
The FDA does not certify or supervise drug production. The FDA does require that companies carry out drug safety tests.

 

[Pixel42]

Testimonials are evidence that there may be something going on that's worth investigating. That investigation may, or may not, result in something useful being discovered. Until you've done that investigation in a way that carefully excludes the effect of our well known cognitive biases, you can't tell which.

Testimonials suggested there was something in willow bark which reduced pain and inflamation. Careful investigation using the scientific method showed that there was indeed, and successfully isolated the particular chemical responsible.

Testimonials suggested that letting a sick patient's blood hastened their recovery. Careful investigation using the scientific method showed that in most cases it actually worsened it.

Testimonials suggested that St John's Wort helped depression. Careful investigation using the scientific method showed it can indeed help some forms of depression but also revealed that it interferes with the action of certain medicines including warfarin, and its use prior to that testing had consequently been responsible for some unnecessary deaths.

Testimonials suggested that homeopathy works. Careful investigation using the scientific method showed it doesn't.

And so on.

The lesson of history is that the only reliable way to determine whether any particular medical treatment is effective is to test it using the scientific method. Testimonials can suggest what might be fruitful substances to test, but they alone are insufficient evidence of effective treatments.

 

[Mojo]

Testimonials suggested there was something in willow bark which reduced pain and inflamation. Careful investigation using the scientific method showed that there was indeed, and successfully isolated the particular chemical responsible.

Not only that, but also devised a subtly different form of the chemical that still produced the positive effects while reducing the side effects of the naturally-occuring substance.

 

[Deetee]

That's not the point jdc.

The point is: The Real Natural substances under the phony names have been traditionally used for centuries and continue to be used. Maybe if by those times there would have been Internet, skeptic forums, FDA and anti-natural trends, the "medicines" which came out of the substances would have never seen the light.

What I say is: Strong denial of anything can lead to censorship and restriction and loss.

Oh! By the way: To kill yourself with a herb would require quite a lot of pounds, with rare exceptions; not like having a cute bottle of pills nicely branded, packed, certified and supervised by FDA. And so easy to swallow!

You ignore the many well documented examples of herbal remedies causing deaths and cancer.
These remedies are essentially unregulated. Herbal products are regulated under the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) of 1994 as a food product. This act says nothing about the safety of the products (or efficacy) and the FDA have no control over how they are used.
Contrasting deaths from conventional medicines, which are always pharmacologically active, and have tremendous therapeutic potential (unlike herbals), is a flaming straw man.

 

[jdc324]

That's not the point jdc.

The point is: The Real Natural substances under the phony names have been traditionally used for centuries and continue to be used. Maybe if by those times there would have been Internet, skeptic forums, FDA and anti-natural trends, the "medicines" which came out of the substances would have never seen the light.

What I say is: Strong denial of anything can lead to censorship and restriction and loss.

Oh! By the way: To kill yourself with a herb would require quite a lot of pounds, with rare exceptions; not like having a cute bottle of pills nicely branded, packed, certified and supervised by FDA. And so easy to swallow!

If we take the example I highlighted, that particular Real Natural substance is rather problematic and the drug derived from the Real Natural plant is much safer. Continuing to use the Real Natural substance would be stupid and dangerous.

I don't know if there is an anti-natural trend. I certainly don't subscribe to any anti-natural viewpoint. What I am anti is things that don't work (or don't work as well as an alternative). If the substances that are ineffective or inferior happen to be natural then so be it. It isn't the fact that they are natural that leads to my objections, it is the fact they are ineffective or inferior. If there is an example of a natural substance that is clearly superior to the pharmaceutical alternatives then I'll happily agree that the natural substance is better.

"What I say is: Strong denial of anything can lead to censorship and restriction and loss."
What is being strongly denied?

"Oh! By the way: To kill yourself with a herb would require quite a lot of pounds, with rare exceptions..."
It took me seconds to spot an exception in your list. Perhaps I should take another look and see if there are others.

 

[jdc324]

OK! A brief partial list and a link!

Google books

Penicillin
Taxol
Marinol
Aspirin
DMSO (not natural, but certainly not patentable)
Lovaza
Digoxin
Belladonna
any opiate, but most notably opium
Atropine
Estrogen/testosterone/most other hormones
Cocaine
Nicotine
Vincristine
Marihuana (glaucoma and fun)
Lithium carbonate
L-arginine
Amrubicin
Anidulafungin
Apomorphine
Artemotil
Aztreonam
Biapenem
Bivalirudin
Bleomycin
Capsaicin
Caspofungin
Cefditoren
Codinaeopsin
Colchicine
Daptomycin
Dimethyltryptamine
Doripenem
Dronabinol
Ergotamine
Ertapenem
Everolimus
Exenatide
Fumagillin
Galantamine
Ixabepilone
Lisdexamfetamine
Mescaline
Methylnaltrexone
Micafungin
Miglustat
Mycophenolate
Nitisinone
Orlistat
Paclitaxel
Phenethylamine
Pimecrolimus
Retapamulin
Romidepsin
Rosuvastatin
Spiruchostatins
Telavancin
Telithromycin
Temsirolimus
Tigecycline
Tiotropium
Trabectedin
Ziconotide
Zotarolimus

All the above come either directly from refined natural sources and others come from extraction from natural sources. Just a few for space!

How come pharma got involved with those?

Because of Traditional Medicine usage TESTIMONIALS.
Once they heard the bells ringing, they knew where the mass was taking place!

Belladonna: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropa_belladonna#Toxicity "The consumption of two to five berries by a human adult is probably lethal."

Atropine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropine#Side-effects_and_overdose "Atropine is incapacitating at doses of 10 to 20 mg per person. Its LD50 is estimated to be 453 mg per person (per oral) with a probit slope of 1.8.[8] "

I'd also suggest that cocaine and nicotine might be a tad risky in doses lower than "quite a lot of pounds".

 

[Reality Check]

The real point is that this and your entire post has nothing to do with this thread.

MikeAparicio , jst in case you are going to continue the derail of this thread into herbal remedies. The idea that herbal remedies do no harm is at least ignorant:
What's the harm in herbal remedies?

Herbal remedies are everywhere these days, often promoted as safe alternatives to prescription medicines. However, many are not manufactured consistently and can have severe side effects on the body. Read more about herbal remedies
Here are 100,508 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.

Read more about herbal remedies lists the potental dangers.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I like this visualisation of popular herbal/nutritional supplements:

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/play/snake-oil-supplements/

 

[MikeAparicio]

It's as simple as this: The first priority of any business is survival.

Maybe you disagree.

Of course I disagree when we talk about Medicine and Pharmacy.

I would restate:

"The first priority of any Pharma industry is human well being and service. Nice if it can be good business too"

By the same:


"The first priority of Medicine is human well being and service. Nice if it can be good business too"

 

[MikeAparicio]

MikeAparicio , jst in case you are going to continue the derail of this thread into herbal remedies. The idea that herbal remedies do no harm is at least ignorant:

I am NOT who started the train crash (derailing)...

If herbs have medicinal powers then they work! They can be dangerous, yes! Can pills be dangerous?, Can ampules be dangerous? Can X-rays be dangerous ? Yes!

The fact they are dangerous means they don't work?

No! No! No! No!

 

[MikeAparicio]

Belladonna: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropa_belladonna#Toxicity "The consumption of two to five berries by a human adult is probably lethal."

Atropine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropine#Side-effects_and_overdose "Atropine is incapacitating at doses of 10 to 20 mg per person. Its LD50 is estimated to be 453 mg per person (per oral) with a probit slope of 1.8.[8] "

The consumption of ANYTHING can be lethal. Apple pies can be lethal! Bananas can be lethal! Belladona can be lethal!
Aspirine can be lethal! Peniciline can be lethal! Taxol can be extremely lethal! Acetaminophen can be lethal!
Reading to much can be lethal!....
It all depends on the amount!

 

[MikeAparicio]

If we take the example I highlighted, that particular Real Natural substance is rather problematic and the drug derived from the Real Natural plant is much safer. Continuing to use the Real Natural substance would be stupid and dangerous.

... If there is an example of a natural substance that is clearly superior to the pharmaceutical alternatives then I'll happily agree that the natural substance is better.

Answer: "Superior" is: what is available! Go and ask Amazonian people what is best! ASk Guatemalan Mayan people what is best! They will say, Herbs! Why, because they are available! And if the pharmacy stuff is available... I need my whole year income to buy a blister!

"Oh! By the way: To kill yourself with a herb would require quite a lot of pounds, with rare exceptions..." It took me seconds to spot an exception in your list. Perhaps I should take another look and see if there are others.Mainly Panama Red! Yaa!

 

[MikeAparicio]

Contrasting deaths from conventional medicines, which are always pharmacologically (SIC) active, and have tremendous therapeutic potential (unlike herbals), is a flaming straw man.

O sure! No people dead from swallowing a Qualude vial! OR sleeping pills, yea! They are not dangerous! Nobody dies from eating sleeping pills!

Antibiotic allergic reactions are NOT killers! Yea!

What about a big bunch of Advil pills! No harm, right?

Oh! I forgot: If some kids find in the closet means to play with both a pound of ugly herbs and a jar full of pills they surely will... Eat the herbs!... Oh yea?

Flaming straw? Flaming straw?

 

[Reality Check]

I am NOT who started the train crash (derailing)...

You sort of started this herbal derail in your big list post:

OK! A brief partial list and a link!
...
All the above come either directly from refined natural sources ...

Since you are definitely continuing the herbal derail, MikeAparicio :

If herbs have medicinal powers then they work! ...

Which is again nothing to do with this thread!

No one is saying herbs do not work. We are correcting your ignorance of herbal remedies, e.g. you do not need "pounds" of most of then to be harmed. If you take them as recommended by shops then you can be harmed:
The idea that herbal remedies do no harm is at least ignorant:
What's the harm in herbal remedies?

Herbal remedies are everywhere these days, often promoted as safe alternatives to prescription medicines. However, many are not manufactured consistently and can have severe side effects on the body. Read more about herbal remedies
Here are 100,508 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.

The fact they are dangerous means they don't work?

No! No! No! No!

Has anyone (except you, MikeAparicio) said this?

No! No! No! No!

 

[Reality Check]

Answer: "Superior" is: what is available!
...snipped rant...

Really wrong, MikeAparicio.
Answer: "Superior" is: what is above ! SO the drugs produced at the highest altitude are superior, e.g. those produced in Denver (the 'mile high' city .

Answer: "Superior" is: what is commanding ! So the intellegen herbs that are the overlord of the other herbs are superior .

The real answer: "Superior" is: the better medicine, i.e. better at curing the condition, better at causing fewer side effects, better regulated, better dosage control, etc.
Herbs are inferior in all of these criteria They are mixtures of various active ingredients (plenty of side effects), with varying dosages, less regulation and less effective (compare willow bark with aspirin).

 

[Reality Check]

O sure! No people dead from swallowing a Qualude vial! OR sleeping pills, yea!

Straw-man on fire !

They are not dangerous!

His buddy is also on fire !

Nobody dies from eating sleeping pills!

And they have put another straw-man on fire !

Antibiotic allergic reactions are NOT killers! Yea!

Straw-man number 4 raises his fiery head !

What about a big bunch of Advil pills! No harm, right?

Can anyone spell straw-man?

Oh! I forgot: If some kids find in the closet means to play with both a pound of ugly herbs and a jar full of pills they surely will... Eat the herbs!... Oh yea?

Oh! We forgot to mention that this is a straw-man argument and irrelevant for this thread !

But seriously this is quite a silly comparison since dangerous drugs tend to be packed in child-proof bottles. The answer is - Eat the lovely delicious herbs that look like food!... Oh yea !