Any audiophile skeptics here?

Just an quick one....

Trust jj, when it comes to audio, he is King.

[analogue mode]
What is this "digital" whereof you speak? Some newfangled moneyspinner??
[/analogue mode]

The only reason I got thicker copper cables for my speaker wiring was because normal flex could not handle my 3000W (RMS!!!) stage speakers.

btw, has anybody yet worked out a stable conversion from PMPO to RMS, or is that still up to marketing?
:mad: :mad:
 


But here's the catch. As far as video or audio is concerned, all the other components in your system have to go through your TV and your speakers ultimately. So your entertainment system can only ever be as good as those two components. If you blow 10,000 bucks on a mark levinson amp, which I would never do in a million billion years, it's probably gonna sound exactly the same as your $200 yamaha amp did, if you're running them both through $45 / unit radio shack bookshelf speakers.


I have a Rotel CD player, and I love it. I am sold on their products as being no-nonsense, high quality, and just what I want and need. I'm looking at the $2,000 Rotel RSX-1065 receiver. It's gotten good reviews from consumers, and it has the right features and connections for me. It will replace a six-year old Yamaha RX-V 2092, which I have enjoyed, but which does have the silly DSP settings and cannot process DTS recordings.

I do have very nice speakers, perhaps entry level high-end, if that makes sense. My mains are KEF Reference Twos, and I have comparable KEF center and surrounds, and the big $1,500 KEF sub. I also have a second KEF powered sub which I already had, and which I have handling the upper range of lows.

[EDITED to correct silly mistake--I thought my second sub was a Boston, but it is actually a KEF too. I have a third sub, a Boston, that I'm not using at the moment]

I also have a Marantz DSP projector and appropriate Da-Lite screen, so I no longer have TV issues in my main theater system. The only issue I have with it is the screen door effect inherent in all LCD and DSP front projectors if you get too close. Normally, I am at the optimal distance from it for the 30 degree field of vision, so I don't see the pixels.

I have been wondering if I will notice a picture improvement by getting a moderately priced newer universal DVD player, so I can forget about the DVD audio format wars and enjoy them both. The Denon DVD-2900 looks like a good candidate at my price point of $1,000. This would be an upgrade from a $500 Toshiba DVD player from about 4 years ago, so I would hope the picture quality is somewhat better as claimed, and I understand the Denon has more of a memory buffer to handle layer changes much more smoothly.

I use S-video connections, since my projector is far away from my components and sources, and I didn't want to run 3 lengthy component cables to it.

jj or Andonxy, any comments on my setup or plans for upgrades?

AS
 
Originally posted by AmateurScientist
Besides the crap I read in the home theater and audiophile magazines, I once had a client who built custom speakers give me a simple mechanical device he invented and built which would score a serrated edge into CDs. The reason, he explained, was that it cut down on the reflective properties of the edges of the plastic CDs, and thus reduced timing errors induced by the player's laser hitting the edge and bouncing off, whatever that means.
...
Anyway, I think doing so is harmless, as the serrated edges do not affect the play negatively.

I think doing that is potentially very bad for the disk. If you only ever play it in an audio CD player, you're probably OK. But if you stick it in a high-speed computer CD drive, I'd be a little concerned about the score marks turning into cracks, and the disk possibly shattering, if you really spin it fast.
 
Rocky said:
The digital signals going through coax or optical both wind up going into the same clock recovery circuit so there is no difference to the final sound. Digital compression used in cable TV or satellite will do more to destroy quality than any cable ever did.

Do you mean "digital compression" (is PCM "compression" in that light?) or do you mean "perceptual coding" (of which I am a co-inventor), which can affect sound quality when people try to cut the rate too much (which in practice they always do :( ).

I used to piss off our marketing people by setting up blind tests where they couldn’t see what they were evaluating before they had to pass judgment. Anyone that thinks they can’t be fooled has never used good test equipment.

DBT's or a cognate (signal-detection, etc, when applicable) are absolutely required for any serious audio testing. End of discussion. Our ears seem to be 'adjusted' (by their nature) to overdetect "changes". Basically, when you have a probabilistic representation of an event (as you do in the ear), you can either avoid false negatives at the cost of false positives, or vice versa. We seem to be in the range avoiding false negatives/having false positives.

That's before you even involve focusing of attention.

If you don't have a DBT, you don't have any useful information on the real sound, beyond present/absent or some very very obvious features.

For some fun, go to the Consumer Electronics Show and listen to the super high-end audio stuff. You can listen to $250,000 and up systems; for that kind of money I think it should sound indistinguishable from sitting on-stage with the band, but it still sounds just like a CD playing in a living room.

2 channels is 2 channels. You have 2 ears, but they are directional and they move when your head does.

I give an IEEE SigProc Distinguished Lecturer talk on exactly that. If you've got a SigProc chapter in town, give me an invite.
 
AmateurScientist said:




I also have a Marantz DSP projector and appropriate Da-Lite screen, so I no longer have TV issues in my main theater system. The only issue I have with it is the screen door effect inherent in all LCD and DSP front projectors if you get too close. Normally, I am at the optimal distance from it for the 30 degree field of vision, so I don't see the pixels.

I have been wondering if I will notice a picture improvement by getting a moderately priced newer universal DVD player, so I can forget about the DVD audio format wars and enjoy them both. The Denon DVD-2900 looks like a good candidate at my price point of $1,000. This would be an upgrade from a $500 Toshiba DVD player from about 4 years ago, so I would hope the picture quality is somewhat better as claimed, and I understand the Denon has more of a memory buffer to handle layer changes much more smoothly.

I use S-video connections, since my projector is far away from my components and sources, and I didn't want to run 3 lengthy component cables to it.

jj or Andonxy, any comments on my setup or plans for upgrades?

AS

Okay I would say your projection setup is going to start benefitting from some high-end components. You have a very large screen I assume, (or esle, why the projector?) and you have some good stuff projecting it so now you can start to worry about the fine details.

First are you running a progressive signal into the projector?

Well, no, you're not, because then you would have to start using component cables. S-video doesn't have the bandwidth for progressive signals.

So My first thought is that if you're upgrading for visual quality, suck it up and make the three cable run and start feeding the projector progressive signal. If you do that then you'll want a player that has a good pull-down converter. In both cases the Denon and Toshiba high end players are supposed to have excellent ships for their progressive conversion.

The Toshiba SD-4800 is about $200 though and it has the same chip, and has DVD audio Support. I will say it's navigation and layer changes are slow as hell though, as is symptomatic of Toshiba players in general.
 
jj and Andonxy, Your dating yourselves =) see if You remember this one.......

Back in the prehistoric 70's there was a race to grab the title of "Most Powerful", with carefully measured criterion and also multiple standards used to describe the output of the amp ( PEP, Total out put, Peak, all carefully arranged to reflect the best result in the test amp ). The FTC finally said enough! and when all had to test thier at the same standard ( both channels drive into an 8 ohm load and measured using the RMS formula for output and %THD ) what do you think happened? They started inventing other representations of qualities of the equipment that had almost nothing to do with anything a human could experience.

My two favorites were Pioneers "Slew Rate Distortion" and the more general "toridial VS regular core transformers field collapse" ( it doesn't matter what they mean really , they are really non-applicable to audio gear).

My setup in the late 70's : Infinity QLS 1, Phase Linear 4000, Fisher 500c ( moving coil preamp only), Crown power amp, Onkyo servo turntable w/infinity black widow arm and an ortofon moving coil cartridges. Drool now! and lotsa #12 zip cord from the local Ace hardware. Oh Ya and I bought it all from Pacific Stereo from some guy who wore Earth Shoes = )
 
TillEulenspiegel said:
jj and Andonxy, Your dating yourselves =) see if You remember this one.......

Back in the prehistoric 70's there was a race to grab the title of "Most Powerful", with carefully measured criterion and also multiple standards used to describe the output of the amp ( PEP, Total out put, Peak, all carefully arranged to reflect the best result in the test amp ). The FTC finally said enough! and when all had to test thier at the same standard ( both channels drive into an 8 ohm load and measured using the RMS formula for output and %THD ) what do you think happened? They started inventing other representations of qualities of the equipment that had almost nothing to do with anything a human could experience.


You make a great point, manufacturers specs offer almost nothing worthy of comparison other than making sure you don't fry your amp.

Much like computer makers are doing today, like AMD with their 1800+ processor speccs. I mean we all know clock cycles don't tell the whole story, but for God's sake, why confuse the issue more with some arbitrary numbering system.

But hey I'll jump in on the marketing machine and throw my system out there. It's actually quite small, because I keep my couch / entertainment center geometry small in my house.

I've got a Toshiba SD-4800 DVD player and three game consoles hooked into a Marantz AV-560 receiver. That's wired analogue into my Rotel RMB-1075. (unbalanced unfortunately which for s short, line-level run isn't too bad, but i'd love to upgrade into something that takes TRS or XLR connects.)

The speakers are the Infinity RS 4s in front, 3s in back, and matched center.

The screen is the Panasonic Tau 32.

The speaker cable is some generic 12 gauge stuff I got from the back of the studio I work in. It's braided copper with a connection indicator, and I bananna plugged it to make swapping connections easier.

The DVD player is component directly into the TV, and the consoles are all S-video into the receiver because the lousy Marantz doesn't component switch.....grumble.

Cool, we should all hang out behind the KwikMart this saturday and compare our remote controls.
 
FLAME ON!
TillEulenspiegel said:
( PEP, Total out put, Peak, all carefully arranged to reflect the best result in the test amp ).

Ack! PEP is a single-sideband measurement! Yes, I saw one of those measurements that turned a +-12 volt supply into a "72 watt amplifier into 8 ohms". How, well, the "swing voltage" was 24 volts, so E^2/r was 72. Wait, well, except, the real peak power into a load isn't that, it's 12^2/8. That's 18 watts.

Oh, but wait, that's peak. Divide by 2 for sinewave power, that's right, ladies and gentlemen, a 9-watt amplifier (and that's only 9 watts IF the output transistors have zero saturation voltage which they can't, ever) is called a '72 watt amplifier'.

Yes, it was time to "do something".

The FTC finally said enough! and when all had to test thier at the same standard ( both channels drive into an 8 ohm load and measured using the RMS formula for output and %THD )

Of course, let us remember the famous "preconditioning test" that ensured maximum stress, give or take, on the amplifier under test, a situation that is almost NEVER actually in existance. But, be that as it may, at least we got real continuous power ratings out of the process, ones that had some marginal connection to actual performance.

what do you think happened? They started inventing other representations of qualities of the equipment that had almost nothing to do with anything a human could experience.

My two favorites were Pioneers "Slew Rate Distortion" and the more general "toridial VS regular core transformers field collapse" ( it doesn't matter what they mean really , they are really non-applicable to audio gear).

Hold on, there, I had some amps whose full power bandwidth WAS less than 20kHz. So slew-rate limiting DID matter for some period of time, although that was fixed once people knew about it. More annoying was that "TIM" (Transient Intermodulation Distortion) was invented as a term for slew-induced distortion, and trumpeted about as a "brand new thing". (*&(* man, op-amps in analog computers in the 1950's and 1960's had warnings about slew rate limiting, and spec'ed slew rate as a matter of course.

So something 20 years old was a 'new discovery', something that seems to happen over and over in the audio industry.

I missed this transformer thing completely, thankfully. What I didn't miss was the bizzare "music power overhead" specs that started to appear, stating how an amplifier could put out more than the usual amount of power for some small amount of time.

What THAT translates into is "we get a better rating on that, i.e. more dB, if we use cheaper, smaller filter caps that have less power supply regulation". So now we have amps selling themselves as 30 watt/channel amps with "3dB music overhead", that were arguing that they were better than a 60 watt/channel amp with no overhead to speak of. The ONLY difference? The 60 watt amp had a sufficient power supply, the 30 watt one didn't. They both do the same thing in the short-term, only the 60 watt amplifier can do it around the clock, and the 30 watt amp only for some milliseconds.

Riiiiight.... A way to make an insufficient power supply sound good. Cooooool,right? (no, in fact, blazing hot, they undersized the heat sinks too)


My setup in the late 70's : Infinity QLS 1, Phase Linear 4000, Fisher 500c ( moving coil preamp only), Crown power amp, Onkyo servo turntable w/infinity black widow arm and an ortofon moving coil cartridges. Drool now! and lotsa #12 zip cord from the local Ace hardware. Oh Ya and I bought it all from Pacific Stereo from some guy who wore Earth Shoes = )

I see you didn't have the Flame Linear amp? Wonder why? :D (seriously, they were ok as long as you kept them COOL)

Was that a DC300? If it was, it actually had substantial slew issues on some few signals, as well as some zero-crossover distortion.

For a variety of reasons, I never say what I own, publically. It's been a problem more than once. If you want to know, PM me and I'll probably answer you.
Banking flames for now.
 
You know, there are a couple of old threads on this, with some web sites listed in them that can be only described as "interesting in the clinical sense".
 
Andonyx said:


Okay I would say your projection setup is going to start benefitting from some high-end components. You have a very large screen I assume, (or esle, why the projector?) and you have some good stuff projecting it so now you can start to worry about the fine details.

Well it's big if you think 102 inches is big. Yeah, it's perfect for the 11 1/2 feet I sit from my screen, and it rolls up out of sight when I want. The projector and the screen go together very well. I carefully selected the tint and material to complement the DSP projector.


First are you running a progressive signal into the projector?

Well, no, you're not, because then you would have to start using component cables. S-video doesn't have the bandwidth for progressive signals.

So My first thought is that if you're upgrading for visual quality, suck it up and make the three cable run and start feeding the projector progressive signal.

Good point, and one I probably haven't paid enough attention to. I used to run component cables to my 36" Sony XBR flat screen television, and frankly I could tell almost no difference between it and the S-video. Of course, I wasn't feeding it a progressive signal either, so duh.

Yes, the new DVD player will be progressive as well, which should make a huge difference, as you note. Thanks for the tip.


If you do that then you'll want a player that has a good pull-down converter. In both cases the Denon and Toshiba high end players are supposed to have excellent ships for their progressive conversion.

The Toshiba SD-4800 is about $200 though and it has the same chip, and has DVD audio Support. I will say it's navigation and layer changes are slow as hell though, as is symptomatic of Toshiba players in general.

Hmmmm. I can't help but think the build quality of the Denon will beat that of the Toshiba, and the extra memory will make a difference in layer changes and access time. Also, the Denon is a universal player, meaning it can decode both DVD-Audio and Sony's SACD format.

I'm glad you think the Denon is a good choice. I can get $150 off by getting a scratch and dent unit.

AS
 
AmateurScientist said:



Hmmmm. I can't help but think the build quality of the Denon will beat that of the Toshiba, and the extra memory will make a difference in layer changes and access time. Also, the Denon is a universal player, meaning it can decode both DVD-Audio and Sony's SACD format.

I'm glad you think the Denon is a good choice. I can get $150 off by getting a scratch and dent unit.

AS

As far as not being able to tell the difference between component and S-video in your original setup...that's not unusual. There is a small noticebale difference usually, but I spend all day looking at DVDs for the tinest traces of Mpeg Artifacting and signal problems, so maybe I'm looking harder than most. But be aware I think progressive is fantastic for film presentations because you get much closer to the original film frame. Some people simply do not like the progressive setting because they claim it looks "softer." Which in a sense it does as you change some of the edge enhancement settings on the Player when you do that....But you can always turn it off if you don't like it.

Yes, the denon will probably be a bit nicer no doubt. I was just mentioning that the Toshiba model is an unbeliveable steal because it's pull-down chip is the same one found not again until you start hitting the 1k price range.


Hey if you can spare the grand, having both DVD-Audio, and SACD in one machine will probably be worth it alone. I've been waiting for that myself. (Truth be told, I have a small collection of DTS audio CDs which damn near any player can read, and Having listened to SACD, DTS, and DVD Audio I think DTS is as good as any of them and a lot more convenient. Part of this is due to the fact that many of the first DVD Audio recordings were NOT actually 96 / 24 but were 48 / 16 recordings upsampled to 96 / 24 so people's little indicator lights would come on.)

The only other caveat though is that if there's a whole stack O' cool tunes on SACD or DVD Audio that you really want, go for it...but don't expect the collection to expand a great deal. I think the music industry has killed the high-end audio formats before they were ever born by doing three things:

1. No official standard. By bickering over standards and royalty rights, they insure a small selection of licensed material, confused customers who won't adopt early to avoid "betamax" syndrome, and higher production costs since studios won't necessarily be equppied across the board for both formats.

2. By being paranoid over digital copying they disabled digital signal pass-through from the playback deck to the receiver effectively eliminating some of the clarity advantages inherent to the format. In addition those without six channel analogue inputs could not ever lsiten to the format further limiting their potential audience.

3. Effectively abandoning the both formats by producing very little new material or marketing, leaving the prices higher than CD, and in some cases DVD, and going hog wild on the whole file trading business. Just another reason for people to stick with their perfectly adequate non-copy-protected CDs for a few more years.
 
Originally posted by Rocky
The digital signals going through coax or optical both wind up going into the same clock recovery circuit so there is no difference to the final sound. Digital compression used in cable TV or satellite will do more to destroy quality than any cable ever did.

Do you mean "digital compression" (is PCM "compression" in that light?) or do you mean "perceptual coding" (of which I am a co-inventor), which can affect sound quality when people try to cut the rate too much (which in practice they always do ).

I mean "perceptual coding", Mp2, Mp3, Mpeg, etc. If it was compressed in real time (TiVo, etc and Cable or Sat Tv), or if bandwidth is an issue (TiVo, etc and Cable or Sat Tv) it wont matter how good your speakers or TV are.
 
Rocky said:


I mean "perceptual coding", Mp2, Mp3, Mpeg, etc. If it was compressed in real time (TiVo, etc and Cable or Sat Tv), or if bandwidth is an issue (TiVo, etc and Cable or Sat Tv) it wont matter how good your speakers or TV are.

Well, there's 2 different things going on here....and forgive me if I'm jumping in when I shouldn't, JJ.

When he's talking about the D/a conversion hardware of which the clock circuitry is a part he's talking simply about parsing and reconstructing the digital information back into an analogue electrical signal. How good or bad that hardware is can depnd on any number of factors. That's not really compression so much as different stages of processing. A raw PCM signal that is "uncompressed" like a 48k 16bit stream from a DVD has to go through the D/A stage and circuitry as well, and the quality of that D/A converter can affect the fidelity of the resulting analogue stream.

But the kind of compression you're talking about is lossy, where you can lose information from the original recording. How much you lose and how "important" the stuff you lose is depends on both the encoding and decoding algorithms, which is what JJ works on.

But that's an extra stage. Dolby digital must be decoded AND converted to analogue signals. PCM or uncompressed signals only need to be converted, not decoded.

Edited to add....

Okay so the kind of badnwidth you're talking about....data per second, is not the same kind of bandwidth we're talking about on the cable. The bandwidth used by the compression technology (like 128kbits / sec for MP3, 640kbits/sec for dolby digital, etc...) is not the same as the actual bandwidth of the signal sent through the optical interconnects.
 
Andonyx said:



The only other caveat though is that if there's a whole stack O' cool tunes on SACD or DVD Audio that you really want, go for it...but don't expect the collection to expand a great deal. I think the music industry has killed the high-end audio formats before they were ever born by doing three things:

1. No official standard. By bickering over standards and royalty rights, they insure a small selection of licensed material, confused customers who won't adopt early to avoid "betamax" syndrome, and higher production costs since studios won't necessarily be equppied across the board for both formats.

2. By being paranoid over digital copying they disabled digital signal pass-through from the playback deck to the receiver effectively eliminating some of the clarity advantages inherent to the format. In addition those without six channel analogue inputs could not ever lsiten to the format further limiting their potential audience.

3. Effectively abandoning the both formats by producing very little new material or marketing, leaving the prices higher than CD, and in some cases DVD, and going hog wild on the whole file trading business. Just another reason for people to stick with their perfectly adequate non-copy-protected CDs for a few more years.

Man, that sucks. I hate the paranoia over digital copying and piracy. Will the music recording and movie industries ever learn that every time a new, better format becomes widely adopted they make more, not less, money because people buy their media in those formats?

Digital is not fundamentally different simply because perfect copies can be made. As long as the prices of the media themselves are not too high, people will still buy them, copying being cheaply available or not. Those suits really can be stupid. Just look at how they pushed DIVX. Now we have DIVX 2, the chemically boobytrapped DVDs that only last 48-72 hours.

AS
 
I put too many different things to close togeather.

Coax vrs Optical: no real difference other than price.

TV & Speaker quality: Not an issue IF you are watching lossy compressed data (TiVo, etc and Cable or Sat Tv).

DVD while lossy does not have real bandwidth issues or compression speed issues so it tends to avoid the problems above.

Question: Can anyone actually hear the difference between 16 & 24 bit audio?
I can measure the difference between a 16 & 24 bit DAC but I'm using a 7.5 digit nanovolt meter.
 
Does anyone but me think that Bose speakers are the most overhyped pieces of excrement on the market? Tinny, hollow-sounding, cheaply made, overpriced, etc.

I use Acoustic Research speakers on my home theater/stereo. They're built like a tank, sound great (the 10" sub woofer rattles the windows real good when the Death Star cruises by :cool: ) and actually cost less than those horrible Bose speakers. Of course, Bose has to pay for all that marketing.
 
WildCat said:
Does anyone but me think that Bose speakers are the most overhyped pieces of excrement on the market? Tinny, hollow-sounding, cheaply made, overpriced, etc.

Yes, Bose is pretty much the big joke of the audiophile set. No one but the unwashed masses of home theater and sound takes their products or claims seriously.

AS
 
arcticpenguin said:
I think jj and andonyx both have professional experience in the field.

Yes, much of what you read is crap. There used to be magazines that published real test results and objective reviews (e.g. Stereo Review of the early 1980s) but most of those have folded due to lack of support.

That is the magazine line that my dad subscribed to, and yes they were very informative about speakers and other audio products.
 
Rocky said:


I mean "perceptual coding", Mp2, Mp3, Mpeg, etc. If it was compressed in real time (TiVo, etc and Cable or Sat Tv), or if bandwidth is an issue (TiVo, etc and Cable or Sat Tv) it wont matter how good your speakers or TV are.

Well, while I will agree that if the bitrate is too low (and most are because that's the quality/rate tradeoff that is percieved to be the demand) I must very strongly protest your statement about "compressed in real time".

There ARE good real-time compressors. They are not as cheap or as fast as lousier compressors.

It is, also, and yes, I'm sure, possible to raise the bit rate somewhat (not by a lot) and get good results in real-time coding with simpler encoders using the same compression standards.

I refer you to my 'www' button and the papers in my bibliography there for a place to start.
 
Rocky said:
I put too many different things to close togeather.

And I've got to argue some of your points as well.

Coax vrs Optical: no real difference other than price.

With some equipment this is NOT TRUE. Yes, in a perfect world it would be, but that is obviously not the case. On the other hand, I do agree that many of the interfacing claims are pure imagination.

TV & Speaker quality: Not an issue IF you are watching lossy compressed data (TiVo, etc and Cable or Sat Tv).

That's completely, totally inaccurate. Lossy compression can not be distinguished (for the right rate, standard and encoder) from the original, using some of the best listening equipment in the world at the BBC studios, the CRC, formerly at AT&T Labs and Deutsch Telecom, and perhaps some other places.

However, most uses of the known standards use too low a rate, and there is some audible distortion, HOWEVER IT IS STILL IMPORTANT TO HAVE GOOD LOUDSPEAKERS.

Speakers are far and away the worst part of the audio reproduction chain, MP3, AAC, AC3, et c. considered. I can quite guarantee you that you will hear differences between a good US$10 set of speakers and a good set of US$1000 speakers running MP3 at even a low rate like 96kb/s stereo, and you'll find the better speakers much more tolerable.

DVD while lossy does not have real bandwidth issues or compression speed issues so it tends to avoid the problems above.

DVD uses mostly AC3 or DTS. AC3 is a very lossy compression algorithm, a good one, yes, but still a very lossy compression algorithm, so it's exactly subject to the same problems you cite above. For one of the very first places such started, please refer to paper 32 on my pub list, which you can find via the "www" button in my postings.

DTS is a higher-rate algorithm. While I don't wish to get into an argument with Stephen, again it's a perceptual coding algorithm, although of a different nature. You can find the basis and very early work on that in references 50 and 51, ibid.

Question: Can anyone actually hear the difference between 16 & 24 bit audio?

Under some situations in very good listening rooms with a very aggressive gain structure, yes.

In a home, doubtful, as long as the production gain structure is decent.

You need at least 20 bits capture, in my opinion, but for almost any form of final delivery in PCM, 16 bits should suffice. As it is possible to get 20, that won't hurt.

I don't know yet of a microphone preamp or ADC that really gives you 24 bits, btw.

I can measure the difference between a 16 & 24 bit DAC but I'm using a 7.5 digit nanovolt meter.
Yup.
 

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