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Another sincere question for theists...

jimmygun

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I have asked this before on other threads but so far no reply. Can anyone demonstrate the "love" part of God. I honestly do not see a loving entity from the descriptions given about him.

Please don't give me that old saw about God saving two people while he let x number burn to death. That is not indicitive of a love for anything.
 
OH,I know ,I know!!!!! He loved us so much that he sent his only son to die for our sins,and unless we worship and love him back,our sorry asses are toast.Wow I wish I could love my own kids that much.
 
Farmermike, is it you whose wife also uses your account from time to time, or at least did a couple months ago?

My mental spreadsheet of who is what here is getting messed up :).

Anyway, to borrow from Jonathan Edward’s famous sermon, isn’t the love part found in the fact that we all are such horrible wretched creepy venomous spiders that it’s only due to God’s astonishing benevolence that He holds anyone from falling into eternal Hellfire?

I know I don’t love any spider that much, not enough to hold it in my hand instead of squealing like a 13 year old girl and shaking the creature off to fend for itself.
 
Scot C. Trypal said:
Farmermike, is it you whose wife also uses your account from time to time, or at least did a couple months ago?

My mental spreadsheet of who is what here is getting messed up :).

Yes Scot,that's me.My wife takes Christianity mighty seriously and the topic is taboo around our household(easy with each other ,hard when kids are involved).I was a Christian,but attending a lecture and debate involving a YEC was more or less the straw that broke the camels back.I had to step back and reassemble a belief system,and I couldn't do it.My life would certainly be quite a lot easier in many ways if I were a devout Christian,but I can't force myself to believe in something I now find totally ridiculous,I can't even fake it,although I try to be tactful and polite
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If an omnipotent god can with the mere flick of his will cause anything to happen then why did he deem it necessary to send his son to earth to have him tortured to death. If he is all so powerful he could have snapped his fingers and all would be well.

He could have snapped his fingers and Noah and his brood would be the only ones left on earth. Instead he chose to murder, in the most cruel of ways, every living thing on earth, innocent or guilty alike.

If he loved his creation why wouldn't he send a clear, unambiguous sign for all to see? Why keep everything in the dark and mysterious realm?

Why would an omnicient god create mankind in the first place, knowing that the vast majority would be tortured forever simply because they never heard of him?

Any wonder that the protestations of nitwits like 1inch fall on deaf ears? I wonder if there has ever been a religion that had a god who was benevolent and kind? If not, why not? Its all baloney but it would seem to me that that would be a god worthy of adoration and respect.
 
God's Love?

How to explain the love of God to someone who is convinced they are in no need of it? I think my own understanding of it hinges on His forgiveness. I don't pretend to have much more than an inkling of God's hate for sin and its effect on our lives, but by times, I get a pretty good appreciation of the wretch that I fundamentally am, and the undeserved grace that not only bears with me, but promises to renovate my self-centred heart. In my case, these renovations have often involved pain. Were I not aware of their intended purpose, I might believe God was not on the job. In fact, in the midst of suffering, I have questioned his care but in its aftermath, I am overwhelmed by the, "plans to prosper, give... hope and a future", that the Christian God says he has, in the Christian Bible.
By way of a caveat, I might add, before you right me off as some kind of touchy feely nutcase, that none of this comes naturally to me and it is a daily struggle to relinquish the reigns of my life to God. I am convinced however, on the basis of lots of good evidence (empirical and otherwise) that there is more to this world than meets the eye and that our ultimate purpose on this earth is to pursue it(God); not to stroke his ego but to experience true contentment.
****THIS HAS BEEN A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT COURTESY OF KAREN--MIKE'S EVER-HOPEFUL WIFE*****
 
Karen...thank you for your reply. I ask these questions of Christians to try and get some idea of what is going through their minds. I understand that religion can and does give comfort and solace. I have many friends of that ilk (including my wife) but I still have to ask for an example of God's love. Simply refraining from covering someone in boils and festering sores does not constitute a loving gesture in my books.

Does the prisoner love his torturer after the torturer goes home and the beatings are put on hold? It happens sometimes that the victims of abuse do create a loving bond with the abuser. Is that the same thing you are trying to convey?
 
Re: God's Love?

farmermike said:
How to explain the love of God to someone who is convinced they are in no need of it? I think my own understanding of it hinges on His forgiveness. I don't pretend to have much more than an inkling of God's hate for sin and its effect on our lives, but by times, I get a pretty good appreciation of the wretch that I fundamentally am, and the undeserved grace that not only bears with me, but promises to renovate my self-centred heart. In my case, these renovations have often involved pain. Were I not aware of their intended purpose, I might believe God was not on the job. In fact, in the midst of suffering, I have questioned his care but in its aftermath, I am overwhelmed by the, "plans to prosper, give... hope and a future", that the Christian God says he has, in the Christian Bible.
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Ok, you've explained to us how your own sufferings are (a) no more than you deserve (b) good for you anyway, and so evidence of God's awesome, infinite love. Now explain to us which of these excuses for God applies to the sufferings of animals. Is it punishment for being "wretches", or is it part of God's "plans to prosper, give... hope and a future"? Explain to us, also, which of these excuses for God applies to childhood leukaemia. Is the child so fundamentally a "wretch" that she deserves God's tortures, or is this part of the process that "promises to renovate" her "self-centred heart" by killing her in agony before she's even old enough to know what God is, let alone why he's treating her this awful way?

Any other theist may feel free to have a crack at these questions.
 
For me the love perceived by the worshippers of the God of Abraham seems to be a misplaced form of the Stockholm Syndrome. (edit: I just see now that you were alluding to this in your response to Karen, jimmygun.)

They say that Pythagoras was a sun worshipper. I've often thought that, for those who need a deity, the sun would make a good one. I believe I could make a better argument for love from that big gasbag fireball than the less tangible skydaddy.
 
Forgot to mention that some of those painful experiences were self-inflicted and that though I "wandered", He didn't. It has been my experience, that God, in his LOVE, can use our mistakes to teach some valuable truths. Whether I'm open to learning them, is another thing.
Where do we get the idea that God is some kind of egomaniac anyway? If that were true, I think he would have done better to have landed on the French Riviera than a stable in Nazareth. Here's a quote(a weakness of mine) that I find kind of relevant:
"Camazotz is One mind. It's IT. And that's why everbody is happy and efficient...Meg shook her head violently, "No!"she shouted. "I know our world isn't perfect, Charles, but it's better than this. This isn't the only alternative! It can't be!
"Nobody suffers here," Charles intoned. "Nobody is ever unhappy."
"But nobody's happy, either," Meg said earnestly. "Maybe if you aren't unhappy sometimes you don't know how to be happy."
Madeleine L'Engle "A Wrinkle In Time" (Being Different)
 
farmermike said:
"But nobody's happy, either," Meg said earnestly. "Maybe if you aren't unhappy sometimes you don't know how to be happy."
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Ah. Just like we don't appreciate our own good health until we see children born with hideous birth defects. Being able to appreciate that difference makes it all well worthwhile and completely justified as an object-lesson against complacency.
 
farmermike said:
Forgot to mention that some of those painful experiences were self-inflicted and that though I "wandered", He didn't. It has been my experience, that God, in his LOVE, can use our mistakes to teach some valuable truths. Whether I'm open to learning them, is another thing.
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I want to re-write this, because it makes so much more sense to me, and I think can be valuable. Re-writing a passage in terms of something else can often lead to new thinking...

Forgot to mention that most of my painful experiences were self-inflicted, and though I forgot about all the good things in life, they were still in my mind waiting to be thought of again. It has been my experience that I, loving myself, can use my mistakes to teach valuable truths to myself and to others. Whether I want to admit my own mistakes is another thing.

God's love for you is simply a misplaced love you have for yourself. Pride is simply not acknowledging yourself as you are, but how you see yourself. These are not God's retributions and rewards, they are retributions and rewards that you give yourself.
 
Re: God's Love?

farmermike said:
How to explain the love of God to someone who is convinced they are in no need of it? I think my own understanding of it hinges on His forgiveness. I don't pretend to have much more than an inkling of God's hate for sin and its effect on our lives, but by times, I get a pretty good appreciation of the wretch that I fundamentally am,
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I want a second opinion. Farmermike, is your wife really a wretch?
 
farmermike said:
OH,I know ,I know!!!!! He loved us so much that he sent his only son to die for our sins,and unless we worship and love him back,our sorry asses are toast.Wow I wish I could love my own kids that much.
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Yeah, isn't Jesus kind of like the homeless guy that comes to wash your windows on your car and then demands some kind of fee for his unsolicited services? It's not exactly like I requested he die for my sins, so why should I be held responsible for footing the proverbial bill he imposes on us? And, if Jesus really died for our sins, shouldn't he be rotting in Hell right now? Once he was murdered, he just returned to Heaven, and I always thought that to be somewhat of a cop-out considering that he was purported to have taken on the burden of every malfeasance perpetrated in the entirety of human history. :D

Furthermore, we don't even know if Jesus suffered such an excruciating death ask could be divined by one that had observed the torture that had supposedly been inflicted upon him. He was, after all, omnipotent. He could have just conjured up some kind of anesthesia and made it magically appear in his bloodstream or something for all we know. Perhaps he was no less a con-artist than modern-day televangelists.
 
farmermike's wife said:
Forgot to mention that some of those painful experiences were self-inflicted and that though I "wandered", He didn't. It has been my experience, that God, in his LOVE, can use our mistakes to teach some valuable truths. Whether I'm open to learning them, is another thing.
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Why is your ability to learn from your mistakes evidence that God loves you?

(Rather than, say, that natural selection killed off people who couldn't.)

But this is all rather beside the point anyway. You keep talking about why you think that God loves you. Well he sure as sugar seems to have it in for a lot of other people. We want evidence of universal divine love, not evidence that you think he loves you. I asked you in an earlier post to solve the problem of evil. I'm asking you again. You do that, and I'll become a Christian. But you guys have had two thousand years to come up with an answer, so I'm not holding my breath.


The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
 
Re: Re: God's Love?

pgwenthold said:
I want a second opinion. Farmermike, is your wife really a wretch?
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I'm forbidden to answer that question on the grounds that I might be spending time in the treehouse.
But seriously,I think the idea is that compared to Jesus who was perfect in every way,even mother Teresa would be considered a wretch.I'd even go so far as to say that Benny Hinn is a wretch also.
 
jimmygun said:
I have asked this before on other threads but so far no reply. Can anyone demonstrate the "love" part of God. I honestly do not see a loving entity from the descriptions given about him.

Please don't give me that old saw about God saving two people while he let x number burn to death. That is not indicitive of a love for anything.
Click to expand...
He's more "loving" than I would be with all that juicy omnipotence and ego...
 
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