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Another Second Amendment win in California

A clear expansion of the legal meaning. Courts have never held that people have the right under the Second Amendment to carry concealed guns.
The manner in which firearms are carried is irrelevant to the concept of carrying a firearm in the first place (so far) according to the USSC. It has been left up to the states to decide whether or not firearms can be carried openly or concealed and under what circumstances.


Where the armed-with-a-gun advocates are going with this is, if concealed carry is a Constitutional right then municipalities and states have no right to restrict it. You can't limit a right.
I'm not sure why you're focusing on concealed carry as opposed to carry in general; does concealed carry concern you? I find it ironic that, in our country's history early on, open carry was the only way to carry and anyone found to be carrying a firearm concealed was automatically under suspicion that they were up to no good. Otherwise, why would you hide it? Now people freak the hell out when a person is lawfully carrying openly and would rather force lawful gun owners to conceal their firearm. Except, of course, when they freak the hell out about lawfully carrying concealed too. One might come to the conclusion that some people are going to freak out regardless of how the firearm is carred; just that it is carried at all.
 
The Ninth Circuit seems to be trying to establish that people have the right to concealed carry under the Second Amendment. If that isn't a clear expansion of the traditional meaning of the Second Amendment I don't know what is.

The irony here is that the traditional meaning of the amendment doesn't pertain to the private ownership of firearms, despite the pro-gun lobby's interpretation of it. So you could say this is less a win for the second amendment and more a win against public safety and security, courtesy of the gun nuts.
 
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The big problem here is that reading about gun safety doesn't actually mean you're capable of practicing it when you have a gun in your hands, so there is a real need for a practical element. This is the costly part.
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Yes!:p One of the funnier Big Bang Theory episodes has Penny take Leonard to a shooting range, and he says "He knows how to handle a gat. He's done a lot of Grand Theft Auto gaming." Bang! Bullet meets foot! :D
There's too many of these innocents wandering around.
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I sometimes wonder if the county or state police shouldn't offer rock-bottom priced (or even free) firearm instruction to those who want the concealed carry permit. After all, it's the cops who end up spending time and money investigating and clearing up the mess after something goes wrong. You'd think they had a vested interest in ensuring that everyone who wants to carry a gun got all the instruction they could ever want or need to make sure they weren't blowing holes in things unnecessarily.
 
Where the armed-with-a-gun advocates are going with this is, if concealed carry is a Constitutional right then municipalities and states have no right to restrict it. You can't limit a right.

Sorry for the multiple replies, but the Supreme Court disagrees with you on this point (from a ruling on gun control):


District of Columbia vs Heller said:
Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues.

EDIT: To fix some horrible overuse of commas and such.
 
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... Now people freak the hell out when a person is lawfully carrying openly a...
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I have. Freaked out, that is.
There is no need to carry a firearm openly in this society.
Only potential hotheads, in my view, looking for trouble do that.
 
There is no need to carry a firearm openly in this society.

I would argue there is no legitimate reasons to conceal carry either, given all the other practical solutions one can use to protect themselves against whatever bogeymen that the gun nuts are raving about these days. Why must society pay for their stupid hobby?
 
I would argue there is no legitimate reasons to conceal carry either, given all the other practical solutions one can use to protect themselves against whatever bogeymen that the gun nuts are raving about these days. Why must society pay for their stupid hobby?
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I have no real problem with concealed carry... there are legitimate reasons for such... transporting funds being the obvious one.
But I feel any personal need to carry concealed other than for the job is just ego.
 

Sorry, I must be having a dumb moment as I seem to be missing your point. From what I can see, this decision basically agrees that restrictions may be placed on concealed carry, subject to an appropriate level of scrutiny (which the absurd Chicago laws failed to demonstrate.) As far as I'm aware, this is in line with other constitutional rights, which may also be limited according to appropriate levels of scrutiny.

What am I missing?
 
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I have no real problem with concealed carry... there are legitimate reasons for such... transporting funds being the obvious one.
But I feel any personal need to carry concealed other than for the job is just ego.


With all due respect, tell that to my wife who was accosted in a dark parking lot of a local hardware store by four guys. Luckily a good samaritan intervened before much of anything happened, but posts like this seem to ignore that:

a) people alone are vulnerable
b) bad things can happen even in otherwise safe areas
c) bad guys don't hang around and wait for you to call the cops - they take action to prevent you from doing so
d) if you do manage to contact 911, the cops do not yet have transporter technology and there will be a potentially fatal delay until help arrives
d) advice to turn your back on a criminal and run away is absurd unless people start wearing shirts with their 100-yard track times printed on them

There are very real reasons to concealed carry, particularly (but not exclusively) for women, particularly (but not exclusively) at night. Neither my wife nor any other person should feel that they as a law-abiding citizen are not able to safely go about their daily business without any means to defend themselves should the worst happen.

Saying there are no real reasons to carry a firearm for self-defense is pretty insulting to those people who have suffered from horrendous crimes for lack of a gun, or who have only avoided such because of a gun. Sure, the chances of a horrible crime happening to any particular individual may be low, but that's not a great comfort to the person lying in a hospital bed or the morgue because they're the unlucky person it happened to.
 
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With all due respect, tell that to my wife who was accosted in a dark parking lot of a local hardware store by four guys.

With all due respect it isn't a very smart idea to be leaving your place of work alone at night, be you male or female.



Bardy said:
Saying there are no real reasons to carry a firearm for self-defense is pretty insulting to those people who have suffered from horrendous crimes for lack of a gun, or who have only avoided such because of a gun. Sure, the chances of a horrible crime happening to any particular individual may be low, but that's not a great comfort to the person lying in a hospital bed or the morgue because they're the unlucky person it happened to.

Saying that there is a reason to carry a firearm for self-defense is pretty insulting, period. The odds of a horrible crime happening to any one person is very low, and by being smart you can reduce those odds to practically zero.
 
I saw a guy waving a tire iron out the window of his car for that very reason!
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Brings to mind what to say to the LEO if stopped.
LEO. "Do you have any weapons in the car I should know about?"
Me..."I'm an engineer. I can make anything into a weapon."
and then.. "My, those cuffs are cold, and tight!"
 
The irony here is that the traditional meaning of the amendment doesn't pertain to the private ownership of firearms, despite the pro-gun lobby's interpretation of it. So you could say this is less a win for the second amendment and more a win against public safety and security, courtesy of the gun nuts.
Is the US supreme court part of the pro-gun lobby? Such a strange comment in light of the recent supreme court ruling regarding the second amendment.
 
With all due respect it isn't a very smart idea to be leaving your place of work alone at night, be you male or female.

Saying that there is a reason to carry a firearm for self-defense is pretty insulting, period. The odds of a horrible crime happening to any one person is very low, and by being smart you can reduce those odds to practically zero.
Okay. You consider people who wish to carry firearms to be stupid and unthinking of possible consequences, regardless of circumstances. It's too bad that you wish to denigrate people. Are you reacting out of fear?
 
With all due respect it isn't a very smart idea to be leaving your place of work alone at night, be you male or female.
Yes, no one who is not a criminal should be allowed out on the streets at any time, and all rape victims were 'asking for it'.
 
With all due respect it isn't a very smart idea to be leaving your place of work alone at night, be you male or female.

She wasn't leaving work. She was travelling to the hardware store at 5:15pm (by which time it was already dark). Of course, in your world it may make perfect sense that adults not be able to walk the streets of their small, otherwise safe town as soon as the sun sets. In the realm I inhabit, called 'reality', there is a general acceptance that citizens should have an expectation that they not have to travel in packs or barricade themselves in their homes at night for safety, but that they should be able to carry the means of ensuring their personal safety while they lawfully do their grocery shopping on a late winter afternoon.. And, of course, this assumes that all crimes occur after dark.


Saying that there is a reason to carry a firearm for self-defense is pretty insulting, period. The odds of a horrible crime happening to any one person is very low, and by being smart you can reduce those odds to practically zero.

Sorry, but i have a problem accepting that this isn't some kind of performance art disguised as forum posting. First, let's skip the implicit accusal in your post that victims of horrible crime generally found themselves to blame because they weren't acting smart ('well, if she was going to go there at that time of night, she should have expected to be raped!').

Secondly, you apparently are happy that as long as the odds of being a victim are low, then people should be quite happy to disarm themselves and accept that if they are the ones unlucky enough to be on the receiving end, then that's just their bad luck. After all, in a country of 175 million women, if only 0.01% suffer from a horrendous incident, then those 17,500 women should just accept a good gang-raping, and they shouldn't complain about being defenseless because the chances of it happening to them were actually pretty low! Certainly they were low enough to justify ensuring that the unlucky women it happened to had no way in which to resist.

I'm very sad to say that the impression I get from your post is that you think you are coming at this from a position of moral authority in that you want to make society safe, but your attitude shows an utter scorn and disregard for the safety of the actual individuals who make up that society, particularly in cases where, according to your own murky guidelines, they have not acted 'smart' enough for you. Your attitude is disgusting and personally offensive to anyone who has ever suffered from a violent crime.

I hope all women are reading this - Mudcat's advice if you are a woman - don't go grocery shopping at your neighbourhood strip mall in your small, safe town if the sun has set. If something bad happens to you, it's your own fault for not acting 'smart'. Also, woe betide you if you wish you had the means to protect yourself - then you're being insulting! To someone. Somehow.

EDITED TO ADD: Oh, and those of you who aren't lucky enough to live in a generally safe area, especially those of you who live in areas with high crime rates - did you know if you were smart, you could reduce your chances of being a victim to practically zero? That's right - high rates of violent crime in your neighbourhood are probably the result of victims acting stupidly, nothing more. If people weren't so stupid in your area, there wouldn't be so much crime!
 
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:clap::clap::clap:
She wasn't leaving work. She was travelling to the hardware store at 5:15pm (by which time it was already dark). Of course, in your world it may make perfect sense that adults not be able to walk the streets of their small, otherwise safe town as soon as the sun sets. In the realm I inhabit, called 'reality', there is a general acceptance that citizens should have an expectation that they not have to travel in packs or barricade themselves in their homes at night for safety, but that they should be able to carry the means of ensuring their personal safety while they lawfully do their grocery shopping on a late winter afternoon.. And, of course, this assumes that all crimes occur after dark.




Sorry, but i have a problem accepting that this isn't some kind of performance art disguised as forum posting. First, let's skip the implicit accusal in your post that victims of horrible crime generally found themselves to blame because they weren't acting smart ('well, if she was going to go there at that time of night, she should have expected to be raped!').

Secondly, you apparently are happy that as long as the odds of being a victim are low, then people should be quite happy to disarm themselves and accept that if they are the ones unlucky enough to be on the receiving end, then that's just their bad luck. After all, in a country of 175 million women, if only 0.01% suffer from a horrendous incident, then those 17,500 women should just accept a good gang-raping, and they shouldn't complain about being defenseless because the chances of it happening to them were actually pretty low! Certainly they were low enough to justify ensuring that the unlucky women it happened to had no way in which to resist.

I'm very sad to say that the impression I get from your post is that you think you are coming at this from a position of moral authority in that you want to make society safe, but your attitude shows an utter scorn and disregard for the safety of the actual individuals who make up that society, particularly in cases where, according to your own murky guidelines, they have not acted 'smart' enough for you. Your attitude is disgusting and personally offensive to anyone who has ever suffered from a violent crime.

I hope all women are reading this - Mudcat's advice if you are a woman - don't go grocery shopping at your neighbourhood strip mall in your small, safe town if the sun has set. If something bad happens to you, it's your own fault for not acting 'smart'. Also, woe betide you if you wish you had the means to protect yourself - then you're being insulting! To someone. Somehow.

EDITED TO ADD: Oh, and those of you who aren't lucky enough to live in a generally safe area, especially those of you who live in areas with high crime rates - did you know if you were smart, you could reduce your chances of being a victim to practically zero? That's right - high rates of violent crime in your neighbourhood are probably the result of victims acting stupidly, nothing more. If people weren't so stupid in your area, there wouldn't be so much crime!
:clap::clap::clap:
 
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I have. Freaked out, that is.
There is no need to carry a firearm openly in this society.
Only potential hotheads, in my view, looking for trouble do that.

= cops, farmers, ranchers, hunters, and security folks.

Yep, crazy folk.
 
With all due respect it isn't a very smart idea to be leaving your place of work alone at night, be you male or female.
I am sure we could ask you a LOT of questions that would reveal you indulge in all kinds of risky behaviors wether you know it or not, and would be quick to rationalize any pointed out to you that have greater risk that what we are talking about here . . .




Saying that there is a reason to carry a firearm for self-defense is pretty insulting, period. The odds of a horrible crime happening to any one person is very low, and by being smart you can reduce those odds to practically zero.

Risk =/= Crisis.

Risk deals in the incidence rate of crisis, which if it is not zero will mean that someone somewhere became a statistic.

Do you think the families of the people killed feel the way you do about statistics?

If you lost both your feet in a rare accident or to a rare disease would you feel offended when someone sought a cure, or vaccine, or a way to error proof the process that lead to the accident?

This ought to be good if you actually choose to respond in any meaningful way here . . .
 

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