An unsung hero

On three hands here:
a. state secrets are state secrets, even if they are common knowledge.
b. Israel probably could have executed Mr.V, so maybe this is a light sentence.
c. If this was Iran , we would be hosting a party for him.

The questions is, what did Mr. V. give away that wasn't common knowledge in the community, or is this just spinning to make people think that there are that many weapons.

Just demosnstrates my point that our government overlooks things it shouldn't
 
Vanunu is released today. In fact he must have been released 15 minutes earlier.

He is released under conditions that should make the civilized western world be ashamed. For one more time the Israeli officials disgrace the memory of our ancestors who have suffered in hands of people that valued human life very little by imposing humiliating conditions to citizens who dare to exercise their democratic right to act according their morals.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3643907.stm
 
quote:Originally posted by Skeptic
The "Liberty" was intentionally attacked--because it was believed to have been an Egyptian ship. It shouldn't have been attacked; Israel could have known it was an American ship; it could have known that, in retrospect, given the intelligence information it had; but it didn't, due to fog of war and other military SNAFUS.

Israeli aircraft had flown over the Liberty several times before actually attacking it. Are you telling me you don't believe they could see the American flag it was flying, or the big words "USS Liberty" on the side?
Sounds like the Chinese Embassy screwup, these things happen. I would presume a spy ship would not have obvious national markings.
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IllegalArgument said:

Sounds like the Chinese Embassy screwup, these things happen. I would presume a spy ship would not have obvious national markings.
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Wasn't the Chinese Embassy acting as a relay station for Yugoslavian military radio signals? So it wasn't so much bombed as a screwup, but as an accidentally-done-on-purpose affair.

(Edited to fix formatting)
 
aerocontrols said:


It's a whole lot of other threads. Unfortunately the search feature here sucks, which makes them hard to find. ('Liberty' is a very common word, and 'USS' is only 3 characters long.)

Just to be clear, besides the Liberty, which other ships do you claim that Israel has attacked? And also, just so you know, the Liberty was not sunk.

Although I'm sure now that the Liberty has been brought up again there will be much discussion about it.

MattJ
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there was a recent book by a USA intel guy on this topic.

also, john pollard, the spy

for the record, to critcize israel the state for its political actions is much different than critcizing the the jewish people.



Virgil
 
...citizens who dare to exercise their democratic right to act according their morals.
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I am not one to entangle myself in the Jew-Arab love-fest that these threads inevitable become, however this statment struck me.

It could be an English-as-a-second-language-thing, so forgive me if it is.

In a society, any society, an individual's morals become less suhbjective. They should rightly bend toward the good of the society--within reason.

If a person breaks the law, there is recourse, and action should be taken.

Sounds like thats what happened here. You may uphold a criminal as a hero, just as NAMBLA might uphold a criminal as a hero, but personal morals are not always upheld by "democratic rights."
 
If I was to reveal nuclear secrets of, say, the UK to the press, and then I got caught, what sort of punishment could I expect? Is the Israeli treatment of Vanunu a lot harsher than would be handed out elsewhere?

If anything, it's a lot easier. By the way, Vanunu isn't--as claimed--an "anti-nuclear activist", any more than Quisling was an "anti-war activist". For starters, he opposes the nuclear disarmament of any nation EXCEPT israel; he is on record opposing the bombing of Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor, for example.
 
JamesM said:
If I was to reveal nuclear secrets of, say, the UK to the press, and then I got caught, what sort of punishment could I expect? Is the Israeli treatment of Vanunu a lot harsher than would be handed out elsewhere?
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If Vanunu is a hero, I guess Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg were even bigger "heros"??

Had Vanunu given up the military secrets of Iran, his head would be decorating a spike somewhere.

-z
 
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Thank you for bringing this issue on the surface!!!

Vanunu case is a typical example of Israel's absurdity when it comes to vital things for a society like Freedom of Speech and Human Rights
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In what country does the freedom of speech extend to the public disclosure of state secrets?

I think you can argue that what Vanunu did was correct in a moral sense, but I can't see that his actions can be defended in a legal sense. Note: I am not saying I would agree with the moral argument, only that such an argument could be made.

Nations have national secrets and laws to protect those secrets. Citizens that violate those laws face punishment. Individual citizens who may have access to those secrets are not permitted to pick and choose which ones they will keep based upon their personal political beliefs, they are required to keep them all confidential.

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Do we live in Middle Ages or what???

If an Arab dictator did that, the USA government wouldn't hesitate to drop some bombs... what do they do now???
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I disagree. If an Arab dictator arrested and convicted a spy against his own government, the US would not bomb them for it.
 
If Vanunu is a hero, I guess Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg were even bigger "heros"??

Well, yes. Say what you will about them, but they believed in their cause. Vanunu, on the other hand, was kidnapped after he agreed--of course breaking every security regulation--to sell israeli nuclear secrets to Britian's Sunday Times for lots of money. The great "hero" simply did it for the money, like (for instance) Aldrich Ames. At least the Rosenbergs were idealistic.

By the way, did you notice that those celebrating Vanunu as a hero are the same people who condemn Pollard as a monster and "proof" of how evil israel is? Pollard is a traitor to the US, indeed, but from what is known his crime is to give israel material he believed it should get anyway and would not harm the US, without any monetary reward.

That belief might have been wrong; and in any case it doesn't excuse treason. But morally, it DOES matter: Pollard gave israel material he believed would benefit israel and not harm the US for idealistic reasons. Vanunu gave the Sunday Times material he knew very well would harm israel for money. Both are traitors, but Vanunu obviously the worse one.

Yet these people celebrate Vanunu awful fate, while they hate Pollard and wish him to continue to be in jail. Go figure.
 
Skeptic said:



Pollard is a traitor to the US, indeed, but from what is known his crime is to give israel material he believed it should get anyway and would not harm the US, without any monetary reward.

That belief might have been wrong; and in any case it doesn't excuse treason. But morally, it DOES matter: Pollard gave israel material he believed would benefit israel and not harm the US for idealistic reasons.
Yet these people celebrate Vanunu awful fate, while they hate Pollard and wish him to continue to be in jail. Go figure.
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might have been wrong????

Pollard was a traitor and he broke his oath. He should've been killed. The only reason he wasn't is because the country was isreal. he was even up for pardon under Clinton (but rejected)

as for Vanunu, that is isreals problem and they should punish him under their law and I could care less.

Virgil
 
Mordechai Vanunu gave evidence that Israel was developing nuclear weapons to a British newspaper. That is treason against his own country, Israel. What the heck did he think would happen, the Israelis would pat him on the back and make him a hero?

Jonathan Pollard was an Israeli spy who got caught passing CIA WMD info on Israel's neighbors. Wonder how accurate that info was after all... ;) ... his crime is spying, not treason.

The USS Liberty was a friendly fire incident nearly 40 years ago, and even with our modern 21st century technology it still happens all the time.
 
Pollard was a traitor and he broke his oath.

Who said he wasn't? But if Pollard is a traitor--and he is--so is Vanunu. It is hypocritical to condemn one as a traitor and claim the other is a "hero".
 
Jonathan Pollard was an Israeli spy who got caught passing CIA WMD info on Israel's neighbors.

Er, I don't think Pollard actually ever had israeli citizenship. But in any case, what matters is that he IS an American, and as such (regardless of other citizenships he might hold) it is treason to spy for another country. If Pollard not an American citizen, then indeed he would be only a spy, and not a traitor. But since he's American, he is a traitor.
 
Skeptic said:

But if Pollard is a traitor--and he is--so is Vanunu. It is hypocritical to condemn one as a traitor and claim the other is a "hero".
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But morally, it DOES matter....no it doesn't, he can justify it in his mind anyway he wants. under the law it is treason.

if you read my post, no where do I claim that this Vanunu person is a hero. for reference I will repost that here

"as for Vanunu, that is isreals problem and they should punish him under their law and I could care less."

and to make it clear if this Vanunu did not commint any crimes against the USA I don't care what isreal does to him. (I do hope he got a fair trial under their law)




Virgil
 
Incidentally, in the recent "documentary" about Vanunu recently shown in Autralia, not only is he shown as a hero (of course), but his family is shown as a bunch of ultra-orthodox European jews, complete with their funny clothes, weird accent, and Yiddish phrases.

Apparently the producer wanted to make Vanunu a sympathetic traitor--I mean, who wouldn't want to get away from people like that? The fact that Vanunu's family is actually Moroccan, and wouldn't wear such clothes or speak Yiddish, was not important.
 
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