An idea about reducing Global Warming

Right, which is what is referred to as the 'Effective climate system time constant', which is not the same quantity as the atmospheric lifetime of CO2. This is taken from the end of section 6 in the pdf you linked to:

Ok, I see your point. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Let's see if I can rephrase a summary comment on Schwartz's opinion, then:

The effect of adding or subtracting CO2 is very, very slight, but is seen for a long time, perhaps 100 years. Any addition or subtraction of CO2 results in a nearly immediate effect in temperature that stabilizes within 5 years. Because the effect of CO2 is slight, the planet is calculated to be in or in near "radiative balance" with no "unrealized heat in the pipeline".

And then the net effects of the whole mechanism, climate sensitivity to a doubling of CO2 equal to 1.1 C plus minus 0.5C.

PS: Did you find Table 3's estimates?
 
Ok, I see your point. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Let's see if I can rephrase a summary comment on Schwartz's opinion, then:

The effect of adding or subtracting CO2 is very, very slight, but is seen for a long time, perhaps 100 years. Any addition or subtraction of CO2 results in a nearly immediate effect in temperature that stabilizes within 5 years. Because the effect of CO2 is slight, the planet is calculated to be in or in near "radiative balance" with no "unrealized heat in the pipeline".

And then the net effects of the whole mechanism, climate sensitivity to a doubling of CO2 equal to 1.1 C plus minus 0.5C.

PS: Did you find Table 3's estimates?

Sorta-kinda. It's up to you whether you would regard that estimated effect as 'slight' (I wouldn't) and as pointed out, the derived sensitivity to CO2 is entirely dependent on how well the intrinsic time constant is captured by the statistical analysis. Or whether it is as applicable as he is assuming, for that matter.

What you have to bear in mind is that this approach for estimating climate sensitivities isn't exactly what you'd call proven and the model isn't exactly what you'd call thorough, so the estimates produced from this work are hardly definitive at this stage. But it'll be interesting to see whether this technique (and others like it) will match up with the more mechanistic approaches in the long run.
 
Putting a large foil or film barrier at the L1 point comes to mind... Of course anything there has to be actively piloted, so if we ever decided we didn't need it any more, we could just abandon it in place and it would be gone quickly enough.
 
OK, I may as well toss this out seeing as the topic is here, just to see if anyone has any opinions. Last year at the Royal Met Soc conference, there was a debate on the feasibility of using some active climate engineering, the specific idea being floated was John Latham's one of having unmanned boats sailing round and nebulising seawater to increase the concentrations of oceanic CCN. This would make clouds optically thicker and longer-lived, creating a cooling effect. A related idea is to inject huge amounts of SO2 into the upper atmosphere to increase the CCN up there, in effect creating a continuous volcanic eruption.

The general response to it was fairly negative because the consensus is that we don't know enough about the effects of clouds to be able to predict what it would do to climate, ocean currents and weather. Their argument was to use the analogy of comparing the earth's climate to a car, saying that you wouldn't want a vehicle with an accelerator but no brake. My response to that would be you wouldn't want to use a brake unless you knew how well it would work; who's to say that the wheels wouldn't lock and send the car spinning out of control? I think the feasibility of doing this will become more obvious as the dynamical aspect of climate science improves.

Conceptually, I like the idea of the reflector at the L1 point. If you had a load of actuated mirrors, you could precisely control the amount of sunlight reaching earth at any one moment in time. Of course, the science would have to improve to the point where we could confidently say how much we need, but hey.
 
Spud1k; Well you could deal with it as a feedback loop with a lot of hysteresis. There are mathematical techniques for doing that. I would lean towards reducing rather than eliminating the problem with the mirror so that there was no danger of pushing the system too far and it finding another equilibrium on the cold side, again with a lot of hysteresis. Note though that you could ALSO have your mirror orbit L1 and tilt it to ADD sunlight to the earth if you had to, so I'd not be too worried about not being able to undo any change to the negative side.

Such a thing would not necessarily weigh all that much; you can now get a 1.4µ mylar film that is just amazingly light. You'd pack that into a Big Dumb Booster and design the subassemblies to self-assemble at the target. Think back to the Echo balloon satellites; Echo-2 was 135 feet in diameter and had a launch weight of only 547 pounds. And we could probably reduce that considerably now; that was 1964 and the film was much thicker than films you can get now, and it was a sphere, and I think a sheet stiffened with gas tubes would be more appropriate to this device.

And you could fly the subassemblies to their spot by using them as solar sails. You just need to be really patient.

-Ben
 
That was one of my caveats - apart from wind-turbines and solar cells, what else is there?
I guess wind turbines are a roundabout way of capturing the heat energy in the atmosphere. Heat pumps would be a more direct way. Since there is always heat in the atmosphere, and since no machine I'm aware of uses this as a source of energy, I assume the energy required to run one exceeds the energy it extracts.

I'm completely laissez-faire on the subject of global warming. It seems to me that even if it's happening, it probably doesn't spell the end of civilization. It would probably be nice to be able to navigate the Northwest Passage as an alternative to the Panama Canal.
 
BenBurch, it seems to me that most of your criticisms would be equally valid for the Pacific Ocean. I assume infrastructure could be developed, if there was market demand.

I'm much more concerned about the possibility of running out of abundant energy than I am about the possibility of global warming. I favor funding research into alternatives to fossil fuels for that reason.
 
A few years ago, I worked out that a reflective area equivalent to the size of one CD per 3 square meters of land mass was all we needed to counter global heating due to increased atmospheric CO2. If you hadn't thrown away all those AOL CDs you got in the mail we would already have a solution to this little problem.
 
Northwest Passage wouldn't be attractive even if ice-free.

Its a wilderness.

No ports if there are storms.

No shipyards.

No tug bases.

No air/sea rescue assets.

This is actually very attractive, for enterprising capitalists of the pirate subvariety.
 
This thread got off to a bad start by Aitch's use of the word "energy."

As purportedly applied to physics and science, "energy" is the most misused word in English. Especially to new-age and alternative medicine types, it means almost anything and everything. In fact, most people don't really know what they mean when using the term.

To refer to Global warming as being the consequence of "excess energy in the atmosphere" is nonsensical, and that should have been clarified in this thread before there was any further discussion. This is particularly evident when you remember that, as Einstein demonstrated, energy and matter are ultimately interchangeable. Does our atmosphere have too much matter? It doesn't make sense.

The base cause of global warming is, simply, that because of the accumulation of above-normal greenhouse gases (primarily CO2), our atmosphere is retaining more energy in the particular form that is otherwise known as "heat." Heat is a very specific form of energy, and it's heat in particular that must be addressed in any intelligent discussion of global warming. In other words, don't use the (in this context stupid) term "energy;" use the much more specific word "heat."

As for any notion of pulling excess "heat" from our atmosphere by shining lasers into space, that's uber stupid (sorry to be rude, Aitch, but it is).

To analyze, yes, a laser shining into space is sending "energy" outward and away from earth (in this case in the form of light). But that would not provide our atmosphere even a nano-calorie of cooling benefit -- unless the energy was pulled, in the first place, from atmospheric heat. Presently we have no technology that pulls energy from the atmosphere, as heat, on anything approaching an industrial scale (it might be argued that wind mills do this, but in fact they are capturing kinetic energy, which is related to heat only indirectly).

This means, to power those lasers of yours, you'd not only NOT be pulling heat from the atmosphere, worse still, you be using greenhouse-gas-producing fossil fuels, thereby increasing the very global warming you'd hoped to reduce. Indeed, even if you powered the lasers with non-greenhouse-gas-producing sources, you'd still be pushing other uses away from those sources, which in turn would be pushed to fossil-fuel use, and still you'd be pulling no heat from the atmosphere. As I said, it was a very dumb idea.

Indeed, it's dummer still (this on a smaller scale), since the laser light, as it strikes various molecules in the air (on its way from earth's surface and out to space) it going to heat some of them, thereby pumping more heat into the atmosphere -- again the opposite of your objective.

The problem is not too much energy. It's the wrong kinds of energy in the wrong places, and not enough of the kinds we want where we want it. Indeed, if we had more non-polluting work-types of energy (the kinds that turn motors and make lights illuminate) available where we want it, we could stop emitting greenhouse gases for our energy needs, and kiss global warming (except those parts that are already inevitable) goodbye.

Again, any notion of "too much energy" is just stupid, and this points to a final fault with your notion. If we did have a good, industrial-scale method of pulling heat (as work-available energy) from the atmosphere, the very LAST THING we'd want to do with that energy is throw it away by beaming it out to space. On the contrary, we'd be most anxious to use it as a NEW ENERGY SOURCE, to power our motors, light our spaces, run our computers, so on and etc -- in particular, to use this new source in preference to fossil fuels.

Your thinking was way wacky, Aitch.
 
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Your thinking was way wacky, Aitch.

Hey, don't knock it. A lot of good things have come out of wacky thinking over the years. As the saying goes, "there's no such thing as a stupid question".
 
A few years ago, I worked out that a reflective area equivalent to the size of one CD per 3 square meters of land mass was all we needed to counter global heating due to increased atmospheric CO2. If you hadn't thrown away all those AOL CDs you got in the mail we would already have a solution to this little problem.

So by suspending them over my strawberry bed as bird-scarers I've been doing my bit without even realising it :).
 
Northwest Passage wouldn't be attractive even if ice-free.

I disagree.

Its a wilderness.

Not for long. Come the sailors, come the brothels and gin-palaces.

No ports if there are storms.

Lots of crinkly bits to take refuge in, and anyway this is far from hurricane territory.

No shipyards.

So what?

No tug bases.

There soon would be. Tug-skippers are notoriously rugged individuals, drawn to brothels and gin-palaces like flies to a sheep-pile.

No air/sea rescue assets.

Again there soon would be, if only to service the Canadian naval assets that have already being planned.

As to Canadian pirates, I just don't see it. They're far too polite. The only tricky bit would be the US waters off Alaska ("prepare to be waterboarded").
 
To be efficient, perhaps, but when the applied resource is so freely available efficiency doesn't really enter into the equation.

It's actually somewhat counter productive if they direct the light back at too shallow an angle where it contributes to more atmospheric heating. On the other hand, a large area of steerable mirrors on the outskirts of the city could be used for various activities. In addition to power generation they could be used for busting inversion layers, directly combusting atmospheric pollution, cleanup of low earth orbit and even taking out the occasional foreign spy satellite.
 
It's actually somewhat counter productive if they direct the light back at too shallow an angle where it contributes to more atmospheric heating. On the other hand, a large area of steerable mirrors on the outskirts of the city could be used for various activities. In addition to power generation they could be used for busting inversion layers, directly combusting atmospheric pollution, cleanup of low earth orbit and even taking out the occasional foreign spy satellite.

Correct. An oblique path would actually exacerbate the problem. This is why you can look directly at the sun at sunrise and sunset.
 

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