Amnesty International

[Baker]

For years, Amnesty International has worked more on their political agenda instead of actually looking for human rights violations as shown in this article will we ever get human rights watch group that doesn’t judge human rights violations based on their political views?

1] AI suffers from an acute case of the Moynihan Syndrome. According to Moynihan’s law, the amount of violations of human rights in a country is always an INVERSE function of the amount of complaints about human rights violations heard from there. The greater the number of complaints being aired, the better protected are human rights in that country. The reason is obvious. Those countries in which human rights are the most severely violated are also those where no freedom of speech nor press is permitted. This explains the AI reticence and almost total absence of denunciation of human rights abuses in places like North Korea and Cambodia. It also explains why AI apparently had no knowledge of the killing fields in southern Iraq until US and British troops uncovered them in the recent war.



[2] AI makes no distinction between the fighting of wars and the civil procedures of judicial due process. If AI were setting the rules, the Allied troops in World War II would never shoot a German nor a Japanese soldier before first Mirandizing them and making sure they had the right to appeal their being shot in a duly constituted courtroom with public defenders present.

This inability to understand that war is not a law school mock trial nor a schoolyard game is evident in the jihad by AI against countries defending themselves against terrorism. AI has repeated condemned both the US and Israel for violating the “rights” of terrorists, and for use of force against terrorism in which innocent bystanders get hurt. AI has generally NOT condemned terrorists for causing these innocent bystanders getting hurt by hiding amongst them and for opening fire from behind human shields.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8141

 

[Baker]

The Amnesty report asserts that the United States and the war on terror have had a “deleterious” effect on the world. But surely they must also concede that the war against the Taliban and the war against Saddam had some positive effects on the human rights conditions in both Afghanistan and Iraq, right? Sadly, that isn’t the case. Amnesty instead condemns the U.S. because “more than eighteen months after the war in Afghanistan ended, millions of Afghans, including returning refugees, face an uncertain and insecure future.” And also, in the words of Irene Khan, Secretary General of Amnesty International, “There is a very real risk that Iraq will go the way of Afghanistan if no genuine effort is made to heed the call of the Iraqi people for law and order and full respect of human rights.” No mention of the end of torture and rape and political disappearances in either country. Rather Khan spends her time sniping that the recent Iraq war “was fought in Iraq because of the suspected presence of weapons of mass destruction” (emphasis mine). Of course even that statement is hypocritical and contradictory, considering that before the war Amnesty claimed that Saddam had killed Kurds en mass with chemical weapons, which would presume the presence of “weapons of mass destruction.”
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8231

One more example to go by.

 

[Cleopatra]

Baker,I am sorry but I dissagree with you on this one.

Criticism is a healthy thing. Of course criticism is healthy when it's fair but we cannot really accuse Amnesty International for unfair criticism.

Amnesty International is severe in its criticism , yes, but tell me that you really don't think that USA is completely innocent when it comes to violations of human rights?

I won't mention here the support of USA to regimes that violate human rights...

 

[Baker]

Baker,I am sorry but I dissagree with you on this one.

Criticism is a healthy thing. Of course criticism is healthy when it's fair but we cannot really accuse Amnesty International for unfair criticism.

Amnesty International is severe in its criticism , yes, but tell me that you really don't think that USA is completely innocent when it comes to violations of human rights?

I won't mention here the support of USA to regimes that violate human rights...

Well you seemed to miss the whole point of the story judging human rights your political views while ignoring those that don’t is not much of a human rights watch group.

 

[Cleopatra]

No I don't think I miss the point, I just dissagree with this point

Which political agenda do you think that Amnesty International is pulling?

 

[Baker]

No I don't think I miss the point, I just dissagree with this point

Which political agenda do you think that Amnesty International is pulling?

Have you bothered to read either article it states it quite clear.
It has long been a highly politicized organization that has ties with and identifies with the political agenda of the left.

 

[Cleopatra]

Baker I have read the article but I was wondering about you, obviously I didn't make myself clear.

Do you, personally believe that Amnesty International is tied to the Left?

 

[Baker]

Baker I have read the article but I was wondering about you, obviously I didn't make myself clear.

Do you, personally believe that Amnesty International is tied to the Left?

Yes, I do that’s one of the main points of the thread.

 

[Earthborn]

According to Moynihan’s law, the amount of violations of human rights in a country is always an INVERSE function of the amount of complaints about human rights violations heard from there. The greater the number of complaints being aired, the better protected are human rights in that country.

Oh, no! That means that I'm living an one of the worst terror states in the world! We hardly hear about any human right violations from the Netherlands. I'm moving to Denmark... Oh no, they're even worse!

Libya is safe. Syria must be very nice. China often critized for their televised executions must be really a haven of political freedom. Come on, Baker, you'll have to admit this kind of logic is pretty whack.

In fact it works against the writers of the article... It would mean that the Iraqis are worse off (because fewer reports of human rights violations) than they were under Saddam!

AI has generally NOT condemned terrorists for causing these innocent bystanders getting hurt by hiding amongst them and for opening fire from behind human shields.

Baker, if you are trying to make a point, why not use a source that the lefties won't consider ridiculously biased so they won't be able to dismiss it immediately.

I'll make it easy for you. Here's the website of Amnesty International. Why don't you show us with the articles from there that the US and Israel are disproportionately critized more than other countries...

 

[Genghis Pwn]

Amnesty International has no credibility with the American public because they are WAY to liberal and political. There needs to be a human rights group that is non-political.

 

[Baker]

Baker, if you are trying to make a point, why not use a source that the lefties won't consider ridiculously biased so they won't be able to dismiss it immediately.

I'll make it easy for you. Here's the website of Amnesty International. Why don't you show us with the articles from there that the US and Israel are disproportionately critized more than other countries...

Ok here are a few results fill free to add your own this is from Amnesty International’s library showing the amount of complaints against each of these nations

[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 502 USA
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 332 ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 302 CHINA
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 252 RUSSIAN FEDERATION
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 166 IRAN
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 156 PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 149 IRAQ
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 149 PAKISTAN
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 139 SAUDI ARABIA
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 101 SUDAN
[1] Showing results 1 - 31 out of 31 LIBYA

http://web.amnesty.org/library/engindex

 

[Earthborn]

this is from Amnesty International’s library showing the amount of complaints against each of these nations

No, it is the amount of articles in the website in which these nations play a role. Any role.

Is it surprising that the USA, having a role in almost everything that happens in the world, scores the most hits?
And since Israel is very much in the center of attention of the world, is it surprising that they too score highly?

And to prove to you just how misleading such figures are, let's search by sub-region:
SOUTH AMERICA 996
SOUTH ASIA 837
SOUTH-EAST EUROPE 782
MIDDLE EAST 777
COMMONWEALTH OF INDEPENDENT STATES 578
CENTRAL AMERICA 522
NORTH AMERICA 503
CENTRAL AFRICA 468
WEST AFRICA 461
WESTERN EUROPE 453

I think it means Amnesty really hates South Americans and Asians, hey?

 

[Baker]

No, it is the amount of articles in the website in which these nations play a role. Any role.

Is it surprising that the USA, having a role in almost everything that happens in the world, scores the most hits?
And since Israel is very much in the center of attention of the world, is it surprising that they too score highly?

And to prove to you just how misleading such figures are, let's search by sub-region:
SOUTH AMERICA 996
SOUTH ASIA 837
SOUTH-EAST EUROPE 782
MIDDLE EAST 777
COMMONWEALTH OF INDEPENDENT STATES 578
CENTRAL AMERICA 522
NORTH AMERICA 503
CENTRAL AFRICA 468
WEST AFRICA 461
WESTERN EUROPE 453

I think it means Amnesty really hates South Americans and Asians, hey?

Well this is the information you asked for these are not news articles they are complaints against each of the countries look at all of the news coverage that Iraq has received over the years and they have only received 149 complaints where they less violent then Israel?

 

[Cleopatra]

In war zones violations of human rights must be expected.

USA has interfered in several wars during the last years, Israel is in War for the last 50 years of the 50 years of its existence.

We must be naive to believe that Israelis do not violate the human rights. They do.

Those reports are for the benefit of USA or Israel because Democracies have the potential to improve themselves.

Its citizens must be well informed in order to be able to ask for full protection of Human Rights.

Amnesty International reports are also valuable for the cases of countries with totalitarian regimes.It's our only way to get informed about what happens to those countries.

I refuse to offer as a gift the tremendous work of Amnesty International , a work that even a magazine like the front page aknowledges, to the Left.

The Left is not capable to accomplish such a responsible and important work as AI does. In fact the left, has always been secretive and against of giving such info to the public.

 

[Earthborn]

these are not news articles they are complaints against each of the countries

No, they're not and you know it. These are articles by Amnesty International and when the name of a country comes up in one of them they are listed as a hit.

Have you noticed that when you search through 'Israel/Occupied Territories' you also get many of the articles concerning 'Palestinian Authority', and vice versa?

look at all of the news coverage that Iraq has received over the years and they have only received 149 complaints where they less violent then Israel?

With all the US/UN/Nato intelligence and the no-fly zones and bombings, do you have any proof that they weren't? After the crushing of the Shiite rebellion in 1991, what military action did they carry out?

Amnesty International reports are also valuable for the cases of countries with totalitarian regimes.It's our only way to get informed about what happens to those countries.

Yes, it's typical that some people say Amnesty International is no good, and at the same time say that the war on Iraq was justified because it was a 'murderous regime'... Well how do they think we know that it was?

The Left is not capable to accomplish such a responsible and important work as AI does. In fact the left, has always been secretive and against of giving such info to the public.

Are you now denying that supporters of AI are predominantly (but not exclusively!) left-wingers? That's a claim that requires evidence.

 

[a_unique_person]

Amnesty International has no credibility with the American public because they are WAY to liberal and political. There needs to be a human rights group that is non-political.

Are you sure your name is not Anakin Skywalker? One day, you shall be Jedi Knight.

 

[Baker]

Have you noticed that when you search through 'Israel/Occupied Territories' you also get many of the articles concerning 'Palestinian Authority', and vice versa?

Many of the Arab nations should have far more complaints then Israel and the PA combined I think even you should realize that.

With all the US/UN/Nato intelligence and the no-fly zones and bombings, do you have any proof that they weren't? After the crushing of the Shiite rebellion in 1991, what military action did they carry out?

I can't believe you are suggesting there where no human rights done by Saddam after 91 look at the many mass graves being found as well as the many stories you hear by many Iraqis.

Are you now denying that supporters of AI are predominantly (but not exclusively!) left-wingers? That's a claim that requires evidence.

I have been providing evidence however you are not likely ever going to admit it its like trying to tell a Christian that a certain group is pro-Christian and Christian bias their not likely to admit it.

 

[aerocontrols]

With all the US/UN/Nato intelligence and the no-fly zones and bombings, do you have any proof that they weren't? After the crushing of the Shiite rebellion in 1991, what military action did they carry out?

Try the Marsh Arabs.

The assassination of Ayatollah al-Sadr sparked off a series of demonstrations in several towns and cities in southern Iraq, culminating in armed clashes between government security forces and armed opposition activists, notably in the city of Basra in mid-March 1999. Demonstrations in al-Nasiriyya and other cities were violently put down and hundreds of people arrested. During a mission to Syria and Jordan in March and April 2000, Human Rights Watch interviewed scores of Shi’a Muslims who has fled Iraq in the preceding weeks and months. Many had witnessed or participated in those events in al-Najaf, Karbala’, and elsewhere. They described a government campaign of terror, involving the shooting of unarmed civilians, widespread arrests, house-to-house searches in pursuit of suspects, and the torture and lltreatment of suspects’ relatives in order to force them to divulge the whereabouts of those wanted by the authorities.

...

In 1993, Human Rights Watch estimated the rural population of the marshlands to be around 200,000, which took into account the huge numbers of army deserters and political opponents seeking shelter in the region after 1991. Today, there may be as few as 20,000 of the original inhabitants remaining, the rest having fled or migrated to Iran and elsewhere, while an estimated minimum of 100,000 have become internally displaced in Iraq.

Saddam's oppression of his people was ongoing. The illegal no-fly zones slowed it, they didn't stop it.

MattJ

 

[Earthborn]

Many of the Arab nations should have far more complaints then Israel and the PA combined I think even you should realize that.

Very possible. Although there is no way to know for sure because in some countries you simply can't investigate human rights abuses, probably because those governments have something to hide.

Doesn't mean that countries with less human rights abuses should be considered above criticism.

I can't believe you are suggesting there where no human rights done by Saddam after 91 look at the many mass graves being found as well as the many stories you hear by many Iraqis.

I have not claimed that there were no human rights abuses at all. I talked about large scale ones. I understood that the mass graves were of people killed in the 1991 revolt. If that's wrong and there have been mass graves provably from much later date, then enlighten me.

I have been providing evidence however you are not likely ever going to admit it its like trying to tell a Christian that a certain group is pro-Christian and Christian bias their not likely to admit it.

That answer was for Cleopatra. Of course you can react to it too, I don't care.

Does this mean that you agree with Cleopatra that there are no left-wingers in Amnesty International?
Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I find that hard to believe.

Try the Marsh Arabs.

Thanks, Aero. I thought 'he' did them in before 1991. Maybe he did, and later did it agian...

 

[Dancing David]

People who trash amenesty need to read thier history a little better and read the Amensty reports a little better. the whole point is that they are against the abuse of political power.

baker have you read thier report on Russia , it is a very interesting read, as are all thier reports.

But hey just jump on the facist bandwagon folks. Don't actually go to the Amensty web site and see what they are about.

I don't agree with all thier views but thats the point.