American voters

[mummymonkey]

The BBC has produced a nice map showing election results back to 1948.

Nice map

 

[BobK]

A 16 vote shift in distribution of electoral votes since 1960. If the Dems don't find a way to connect with the red states they'll keep digging themselves deeper in the hole.
I would suggest that less denigration and a little more respect for the intelligence and attitudes of the people in those states would be a good start.

Had the apportionment of electoral votes followed the population distribution of the 1960s, John Kerry would have won. Democrat bailiwicks have not grown as quickly as the those which have tended Republican.
1960 census (1964, 68 elections) -- Kerry 270, Bush 268
1970 census (1972, 76, 80 elections) -- Kerry 270, Bush 268
1980 census (1984, 88 elections) -- Bush 276, Kerry 262
1990 census (1992, 96, 2000 elections) -- Bush 279, Kerry 259
2000 census (2004, 08 elections) -- Bush 286, Kerry 252

 

[Kopji]

I'll be angry about this for a while but I'm sure I'll get over it. Our county was actually one of the few who voted for Kerry.

The big race here though, was between Paul Babbit and Rick Renzi for the Arizona 1st congressional district.

Now, Babbit's a pretty traditional Democrat. May not agree with all his politics but I've met and spoken with him. He's from an old ranching/trading family that feels a kind of social responsibility for having been raised in a wealthier family than the rest of the people around him. A decent guy nonetheless.

Renzi grew up here, but left to live in Virgina about 17 years ago. He and his family still live there. He bought a small rundown house four years ago in Flagstaff solely for the purpose of running for Congress against another decent guy, George Cordova.

The scorched earth policy script of both elections was taken directly from Machiavelli.

The only thing Renzi really has going for him is he is a strong supporter of Bush. In both elections, the Republic National Party has funneled MILLIONS of dollars into a lightly populated Arizona district to not only keep a Republican in congress, but destroy by lies and misconstructions any who run against them. The Republicans outspend the Democrats by huge amounts.

A survey was done that showed Republican negative ads ran 6-1. I watched them on TV and was appalled at the complete lack of honesty or integrity. All this by a group supposedly elected on "values". SHAME on American voters.

There is something deeply wrong with the way the national party system is working. We are being held hostage by a national political machine that produces candidates like George Bush and John Kerry.

Will there be any call for campaign reform in four years? Don't count on it.

 

[Bruce]

"I hope the Democrat party realizes that it lost this election by the spewing of constant vitriol like Michael Moore, Katie Couric, moveon.org and all the rest of the America haters."

Seconded

"I hope the Republican pary realizes that it won this election by the spewing of constant vitriol like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Project for the New American Century and all the rest of the American haters."

Also Seconded

I would also like to add that Republicans need to quit forking over money to corporate giants and Democrats need to quit forking over money to Union giants.

If they would only fork over money to me, everything would be fine.

 

[CapelDodger]

There's a rather impassioned piece by Simon Schama in today's Guardian :

It is time we called those two Americas something other than Republican and Democrat, for their mutual alienation and unforgiving contempt is closer to Sunni and Shia, or (in Indian terms) Muslim and Hindu.

This thread has reminded me of The Nine Nations of North America by Joel Garreau. I read it way back, but it still seems pretty relevant.

 

[easycruise]

The people who voted against Bush (not "dems", please, stop that dishonest characterizing) are centered in and near large institutions of learning.

That's the fact, Jack.

Hey JJ, do you think that it could be that the leftist college professors brainwashed their citizenry?

And once they get away from their spell they come back to their senses?

 

[easycruise]

Perhaps neo-conservatism can destroy itself in only 8 years. It does - as befits the US - run that much faster towards the precipice. I actually wanted Bush to win for this very reason. They have nobody else to blame for what's going to happen.

After 8 years of Bush/Cheney ... maybe Hilary?

Typical liberal mindset. Let's dissect it shall we?

Constant doom and gloom thinking. Armageddon is coming! That pessimism won't get you to win elections.

Constant repeat of prior mistakes. Hillary? She's even more liberal than Kerry! She has no shot. You libs should be thinking along the lines of Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller or Sam Nunn or...especially Evan Bayh. But, sadly, you won't, and us conservatives will be laughing at every election as to how dense you are.

 

[easycruise]

LOL

Very funny.
Rush has been around for how long? I guess he's the reason Clinton lost, eh? The only ones who listen to him are the true believers anyway.
Most people I talk to in real life have no idea who Ann Coulter is, but they sure know who Michael Moore is.

See, that's the problem. most people you talk to don't investigate both sides of the debate. I've checked Rush Limbaugh's facts and the vast majority of the time, they are true. Same with Coulter.

Michael Moore has now been proven to have 53 outright lies or innaccuracies in his movie.

And you wonder why I'm republican? Heck, I used to be a democrat, I voted for Carter in 1976 and I even went with Perot in 1992. That is until I started researching the facts.

 

[easycruise]

I don't really care for people who like inflicting torture and starting wars.

I don't have a problem with being ready to SQUASH someone who starts a war.

I have a problem with just up and starting a war.

As has been said many times, half of all humans are below average intelligence. They voted republican. Average intelligence isn't very high. Plenty of delusional/stupid people left above the line to outvote sensible people every time.

It's unfair to call Republicans 'conservative'. After all, Dubya's deficit spending at record levels and giving away money to stay popular. Your grandchildren will curse you for their taxes... if they aren't stupid enough to just accept servicing ever-increasing debt as their 'duty'.

Do a google search on the words "Salman Pak" and tell me we shouldn't have invaded Iraq. Obviously, 56 million Americans parroted what George Bush said, and that was, "BRING IT ON".

And you are forgetting about the effects of supply-side economics whcih is starting to kick in right now. Forget about the deficit, it's actually small compared to the economy, and it will get smaller. See my post on the other thread, I'll give you an economics lesson, which you seem to need.

 

[evildave]

And yet somehow invasion didn't turn up evidence that Dubya could wave at the TV cameras and say "See! I was right! Terrorists! Terrorists everywhere!" Oh, wait, I guess it's just one of those 'secrets', like prisoners being exported for torture, hidden from the Red Cross, and otherwise abused.

Good thing we went in: there's no denying that NOW there certainly ARE terrorists in Iraq. Way to go.

The economy will go the direction it goes. So far, the only thing that's clearly and definitely 'trickled down' to everyone is the debt. Over $1000 worth of debt interest is paid for every man, woman and child in America every year. Think what $321,566,323,971.29 could pay for besides debt service, or EVEN BETTER, what an enormous TAX BREAK not having to pay that debt anymore would be. Ahh, never mind. Who am I talking to? Someone who thinks deficit spending is being 'fiscally conservative'.

Nah, let's just let the government spend on credit like there is no interest. It's the AMERICAN way.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdint.htm

 

[SlippyToad]

The dems reside in or near big cities, where Federally funded entitlement programs are targeted. For fear of losing big cash handouts [bribes], and welfare checks, the big cities vote democrat. The biggest cities happen to be on the coasts.

Of course, you're forgetting about all the pork brought home by Republicans to Red states, and completely ignoring things like the permanent fund dividend staunchly Republican Alaska gets.

Also you are demonstrating that you don't have a clue as to why most people vote.

 

[SlippyToad]

I'll be angry about this for a while but I'm sure I'll get over it. Our county was actually one of the few who voted for Kerry.

More people voted for John Kerry this year than voted for Ronald Reagan 20 years ago. We aren't nuts, and we aren't a dismissable minority.

 

[peptoabysmal]

pepto and SezMe illustrate the point I made in my previous post perfectly. No differences between the two sides except for how they perceive that their side is better, no matter the circumstances or how utterly abysmal their candidate of choice may be. Red or Blue? We all would better off color blind.

How long does it take you to decide which kind of bottled water to buy?

 

[demon]

easycruise:
"Do a google search on the words "Salman Pak" and tell me we shouldn't have invaded Iraq."

Hey you better tell the ISG, they missed that one

I see the first site a google of that name takes you to also quotes Blairs dossiers...rock on!

 

[SlippyToad]

And you are forgetting about the effects of supply-side economics whcih is starting to kick in right now. Forget about the deficit, it's actually small compared to the economy, and it will get smaller. See my post on the other thread, I'll give you an economics lesson, which you seem to need.

OK, so how does the continuing decline of the value of the dollar factor into this? And what happens when the mostly asian investors who are buying those increasingly less-valuable dollars to finance our deficit, now expanding at nearly half a trillion dollars a year, decide they have better things to do with their money?

As for the effects of supply side economics, I forget all about them every time my health insurance rates go up by 15%. I also forget about them when I fill up my gas tank. Oh, and I forget about them when my measly cost-of-living increase raise comes that doesn't cover either of the former two items (and I'm lucky I even get an increase). And I can't remember them at all when I wonder how much longer it will be before my job is being done in India. So. Do. Tell.

 

[SezMe]

pepto and SezMe illustrate the point I made in my previous post perfectly. No differences between the two sides except for how they perceive that their side is better, no matter the circumstances or how utterly abysmal their candidate of choice may be. Red or Blue? We all would better off color blind.

I have given this post considerable thought and ultimately have decided that I do not know what it means to be "color blind"

Consider two voters. Voter A is a rabid (Dem/Rep) and votes along strictly party lines.

Voter B is a skeptic. He carefully evaluates all the policies of the two parties and makes a selection on what is best for the country. In fact, Voter B becomes so convinced that his selection is VITAL to the health of the country that he becomes a vehement advocate for that position.

I suspect that you would advocate that Voter A become "color blind" while you would respect Voter B.

But how, on this forum, do you distinguish between the two? After all, they both end up with the same position and the same energy behind that position.

 

[CapelDodger]

Typical liberal mindset. Let's dissect it shall we?

Constant doom and gloom thinking. Armageddon is coming! That pessimism won't get you to win elections.

Constant repeat of prior mistakes. Hillary? She's even more liberal than Kerry! She has no shot. You libs should be thinking along the lines of Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller or Sam Nunn or...especially Evan Bayh. But, sadly, you won't, and us conservatives will be laughing at every election as to how dense you are.

Liberal? Moi?!!

The Tories were, and the Bushies are, driven by ideology. Which means they're inflexible and unable to respond adequately to real events. The Tories, after 18 years, had run out of people to blame and were effectively running against their own record. A tub lof lard could have led Labour - let alone "New" Labour - to victory. After 8 years, with control of Congress meanwhile, the Bushies will be in a similar position. (This assumes no split in the Republican Party in Congress, which I'll admit isn't guaranteed.)

The problems the Bushies have to deal with are legion. The economy. The deficit. A savings rate bouncing around zero. Religion may not have been decisive, but that's certainly how it's been presented and there's no reason to think the Religious Right won't see it that way. (They are, let's face it, a self-regarding bunch.) So they're going to be expecting something substantial, and not just on abortion. Iraq and other putative wars. And then there's the War on Terror. How are things going to look on all these fronts in 4 years? Not great, I'm thinking.

I'm not "endorsing" Hillary, but it's quite possible enough of the non-ideological vote will swing to the not-Republican camp for anyone to beat them. Hillary would make for a very interesting campaign, highly entertaining. Those other names mean nothing to me, I'm afraid.

 

[easycruise]

OK, so how does the continuing decline of the value of the dollar factor into this? And what happens when the mostly asian investors who are buying those increasingly less-valuable dollars to finance our deficit, now expanding at nearly half a trillion dollars a year, decide they have better things to do with their money?

As for the effects of supply side economics, I forget all about them every time my health insurance rates go up by 15%. I also forget about them when I fill up my gas tank. Oh, and I forget about them when my measly cost-of-living increase raise comes that doesn't cover either of the former two items (and I'm lucky I even get an increase). And I can't remember them at all when I wonder how much longer it will be before my job is being done in India. So. Do. Tell.

Oh stop it. Everytime the dollar drops, there are doom and gloom people predicting Armageddon. Asian investors are always the straw man, yet they never withdraw their money. Money goes where it's treated best, and the good ole U.S. of A can't be beat.

 

[CapelDodger]

Oh stop it. Everytime the dollar drops, there are doom and gloom people predicting Armageddon. Asian investors are always the straw man, yet they never withdraw their money. Money goes where it's treated best, and the good ole U.S. of A can't be beat.

Again with the apocalyptic talk. The US economy can go sour without the skies darkening. When it's currently running on historically high debts - public, private and the trade deficit - the smart money's on a period of serious belt-tightening. US profligacy isn't going to be funded indefinitely. US voters aren't going to enjoy the adjustment.

A lot of Japanese capital has been withdrawn from the US - the Japanese banking system has been having a quiet liquidity crisis for 20 years. Who knows what the Chinese and the Tiger economies are going to do in the next few years?

Previous plunges in the dollar have been managed by international intervention, in the cause of wider stability. Getting such co-operation in the current diplomatic climate is going to be fun to watch. When you get this much in debt, your creditors own you.

 

[Ziggurat]

As has been said many times, half of all humans are below average intelligence. They voted republican. Average intelligence isn't very high. Plenty of delusional/stupid people left above the line to outvote sensible people every time.

I'm a democrat. I voted for Bush. But whenever I see statements like this, I get disgusted by my party. This kind of attitude is counterproductive, to say the least. And it also makes me realize that the people who say things like this don't actually believe in democracy.